Finally got my first game in! Yay! My opponent and I were wondering: does a target locked defender roll his ship's agility dice vs say an Xwing's proton torpedos? My opponent spent a turn target locking, got his shields plastered, shot his torp and did 0 damage. Was very un satisfying. This was the weapon which brought down the Death Stars right???

IF the answer to this question is indeed that defenders roll agi vs the munition, i may instate a house roll: when firing torpedos on a target locked defender, said defender cannot dodge the hit results.

Otherwise, i fear we'll never build squads with torps/missiles in them...

Yes, the defender rolls green dice, just like you would for any other attack.

The universal opinion is that ordnance is underwhelming.

Short answer is yes. The defender rolls his agility dice.

You are right on target by not wanting to use them. There is a general consensus that they are not worth the points. Some of the torps and missiles that have a secondary function (like flachettes cause stress) get some use, but otherwise they are left out.

That being said, FFG has hinted that ordinance will be seeing an overhaul in the near future. So don't throw out all your cards just yet.

As far as a house rule...I saw one that I liked on the forums a while ago: If you score a hit with a torp or missile, cancel all the defenders green dice and then apply the damage. So they don't hit more often, but if they do they do a lot of damage.

That being said, I don't recommend changing the rules of the game until you get more experience with it. It is a great game..even if you leave out the proton torpedoes.

It should be pointed out that the defender would NOT get an extra defense die they would normally get if facing a Range 3 attack. Conversely the torpedo doesn't get the extra attack die at range 1. This is true with all secondary weapons.

It should be pointed out that the defender would NOT get an extra defense die they would normally get if facing a Range 3 attack. Conversely the torpedo doesn't get the extra attack die at range 1. This is true with all secondary weapons.

This was one I had missed when I first started playing. Thought cluster missiles were AMAZING when you got into range one. Sadly this was not the case

Short answer:

No.

Long answer:

No, they do not roll agility dice. There is no such thing as an "agility die".

The defender rolls defense dice. And he rolls them against all weapons, including torpedoes and missiles.

Good to know about the range modifier not applying! Protons at range 3, 4 attack die vs 3 defense die. 4 squad points. 1 time use. Lame. Lol

As far as a house rule...I saw one that I liked on the forums a while ago: If you score a hit with a torp or missile, cancel all the defenders green dice and then apply the damage. So they don't hit more often, but if they do they do a lot of damage.

That being said, I don't recommend changing the rules of the game until you get more experience with it. It is a great game..even if you leave out the proton torpedoes.

Ooooh, I like that one.

OP: As the above posters have stated, ordnance is extremely disappointing considering the cost. When I began, I felt exactly the same as you. I would recommend waiting to see what FFG has in store for us ... but in the meantime, keep the ordnance cards in your box.

We all tried torps when we started we all found them lacklustre but ffg keep trying so someday they might be useable just not now.

So, unlike a video game where you can simply rewrite code to nerf/buff certain aspects, how in the balls would they buff torps in a table top game with hundreds of thousands of printed cards and rule books out there?

So, unlike a video game where you can simply rewrite code to nerf/buff certain aspects, how in the balls would they buff torps in a table top game with hundreds of thousands of printed cards and rule books out there?

Most likely they print new upgrade cards.

Less likely they errata existing cards. Like they did with the decloak reference card.

Wait and see. Rumors are that the next wave will help TIE Bombers.

So, unlike a video game where you can simply rewrite code to nerf/buff certain aspects, how in the balls would they buff torps in a table top game with hundreds of thousands of printed cards and rule books out there?

Buffing is a lot easier to do than nerfing. To buff something that they think is weak, all they have to do is print a new upgrade that adds some kind of bonus to the weak thing specifically (point reduction, eliminating a drawback, adding extra abilities). They can also sometimes change rulings on how an unusual interaction works to make something more powerful.

To nerf something, they pretty much are limited to actual errata of the rules to completely change how something originally worked in order to make it not as powerful. The changes to decloaking are the most recent significant time this has happened (changing how large ships barrel rolled is another) and I think it can only be done in a few exceptional circumstances.

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

I've actually seen a few guys that have playtested this with fairly good results. It did seem to give the torps/missiles the impact they are supposed to have on the game. The other buff they tried was not discarding the card when they fired. The reasoning was an X-wing was supposed to be able to have more than just one shot with torpedoes. I think they settled on keeping tabs at three shots per card. This also worked quite well without overbalancing things.

Well, I think the default assumption for the math of this game was that an attack would have a single means to modify the dice. If you can get more than that you are ahead of the curve, if you are throwing naked dice it's a sub-par attack. Allowing the tokens spent to fire ordnance to be used to modify them should mean then that they go back up to parity with the games assumptions (or at least close to it, since you wouldn't have the option to save the token if you rolled really well).

I actually don't find an issue with rolling defense dice against any type or ordinance weapon. Playing the old X-Wing games, it was always possible to outfly a torpedo or missile, especially in the highly agile ships. Now what I would like to see is that perhaps their use doesn't spend the target lock, allowing you to keep it, though unable to use said target lock for rerolling of dice, along with also not expending the card. Allow the card to stay for 2 or more shots before it's exhausted. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.

I really like the ability to launch the torp/missile while concurrently burning the target lock to re-roll as many die as you want, whilst allowing the defender to roll his defense die. I'm in! Not super OP in that the defender still gets a chance to outright dodge the attack, but allowing the same target lock trait that's typically reserved for the laser cannons to apply to the munition during a target lock expenditure makes sense! House rule #1 is ready!

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

However, (disregarding the fact that they aren't the same upgrade type) this would kill the Homing Missile and the Concussion Missile, which would now both be inferior to the Proton Torpedo.

There'd be no point paying the extra point for Homing Missiles that let's you keep your TL (disabling the defender's evade tokens is not worth 1 point). And, if you're going to have a TL to re-roll dice whenever you fire them, the Proton Torpedoes' eyeball-to-crit-result effect is strictly better than the Concussion Missiles' blank-to-hit result.

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

However, (disregarding the fact that they aren't the same upgrade type) this would kill the Homing Missile and the Concussion Missile, which would now both be inferior to the Proton Torpedo.

Actually, the Concussion Missile results in greater expected damage than the Proton, due to converting a Blank to a Hit, vs a Focus to a Crit.

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

However, (disregarding the fact that they aren't the same upgrade type) this would kill the Homing Missile and the Concussion Missile, which would now both be inferior to the Proton Torpedo.

Actually, the Concussion Missile results in greater expected damage than the Proton, due to converting a Blank to a Hit, vs a Focus to a Crit.

If you have TL + Focus under the current rules, Concussion Missiles > Proton Torpedoes. If you adopted the proposed house rule and allowed players to reroll dice using their TL, then Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes would have the same number of expected hits+crits, and the Proton Torpedoes would have a bit of an edge because it results in a higher proportion of crits.

Homing Missiles would be right out, since preventing evade tokens from being spent isn't worth +1 point.

For ordnance, IMO, the simplest way to give them a big buff without screwing up anything else or needing massive errata or several new cards, would be to rule that, if a secondary weapon requires you to spend a token to fire it, you still get the function of that token on the attack. So, you don't need to errata the cards, you still have to spend the TL to fire the weapon, but you also get the TL reroll on the attack if you want it. The nice thing about that kind of a ruling is, it buffs the older ordnance that required spending the tokens, but doesn't change the more recent, somewhat more powerful ordnance they have produced that only require you to HAVE a TL or focus, but not spend it.

However, (disregarding the fact that they aren't the same upgrade type) this would kill the Homing Missile and the Concussion Missile, which would now both be inferior to the Proton Torpedo.

Actually, the Concussion Missile results in greater expected damage than the Proton, due to converting a Blank to a Hit, vs a Focus to a Crit.

If you have TL + Focus under the current rules, Concussion Missiles > Proton Torpedoes. If you adopted the proposed house rule and allowed players to reroll dice using their TL, then Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedoes would have the same number of expected hits+crits, and the Proton Torpedoes would have a bit of an edge because it results in a higher proportion of crits.

Homing Missiles would be right out, since preventing evade tokens from being spent isn't worth +1 point.

As Vorpal pointed out, my comment was regarding the proposed change to the rules.

Here are the results from a quick simulation...

• Concussion Missiles, no focus: 1.67 total hits (2.68 hits and 0.66 crits)
• Proton Torpedoes, no focus: 1.67 total hits (1.99 hits and 1.35 crits)

• Concussion Missiles, with focus: 1.96 total hits (3.38 hits and 0.54 crits)
• Proton Torpedoes, with focus: 1.87 total hits (2.44 hits and 1.31 crits)

Total hits are almost identical in both cases, being very slightly better for Concussion Missiles when you have a focus.

However, the Proton Torpedoes deal out many more critical hit results.

What about this?

New Ordnance reference card :

When equipping a ship with a (missile), (torpedo), or (bomb) card, follow these additional rules:

- Ordnance upgrade cards copies : A ship cannot equip two copies of the same ordnance card. As a general rule, consider all (torpedo), (missile), and (bomb) cards having the Limited keyword.

- Ordnance capacity : Every ship has a maximum capacity to load warheads. This capacity is measured in Torpedo Capacity , Missile Capacity and Bomb Capacity . Every (Missile) icon in the ship's upgrade bar provides 10 Missile Capacity points. Every (Torpedo) icon in the ship's upgrade bar provides 10 Torpedo Capacity points. Every (Bomb) icon in the ship's upgrade bar provides 10 Bomb Capacity points.

- Warhead Tokens : When equipping ordnance cards on a ship, add (warhead tokens) on top of the upgrade cards. Every warhead token you add on top of a Ordnance card is considered to be of the same type of that card, and has a capacity cost that matches the Squadron point cost of the card. Add as many tokens as you can as long as the maximum capacity of the ship for that type of token isn't surpassed. You must not place any token on upgrade cards with negative squadron point cost, like Chardaan Refit.

- Discarding : Whenever an ordnance card requires you to discard the card as part of the cost of performing an attack, instead, discard one token over that card. If there are no tokens left on that card, you may not perform that attack. If you have Munitions Failsafe equipped, and your attack doesn't hit, do not discard a token from this card. If your are instructed to discard the card by an effect other than the cost of an attack, (like a critical damage card), discard all tokens on the card and the card.

- Special Torpedo Attacking Rules : These rules apply to (torpedo) upgrade cards that have the word "torpedo" or "torpedoes" on their name. (That is, it won't apply to future (torpedo) cards that doesn't contain those words in their name).

- If the attack hits, cancel all dice results from the defender before resolving the damage.

- Defenders at range 2 or higher get +1 bonus Defense die.

- If the defender is at range 2 or higher, and you are inside the defender's firing arc when performing this (torpedo) attack, and the defender has no stress tokens, before the defender rolls his defense dice, the defender may choose not to roll any defense dice. In that case, instead he immediately performs a primary weapon attack against your torpedo and gains one stress token. Your torpedo rolls 0 defense dice and is considered to be at the same distance as you are from the defender. If he hits, your torpedo is destroyed and your attack immediately misses. If he doesn't, your torpedo attack resumes and the defender rolls 0 defense dice.

- Special Missile Attacking Rules : These rules apply to (missile) upgrade cards that have the word "missile" or "missiles" on their name. (That is, it doesn't apply to Proton Rockets, Chardaan Refit, and all future (missile) cards that won't have those words in their names)

- Defenders at range 3 or higher get +1 bonus Defense die.

- If the defender is at range 3 or higher, and you are inside the defender's firing arc when performing this (missile) attack, and the defender has no stress tokens, before the defender rolls his defense dice, the defender may choose not to roll any defense dice. In that case, instead he immediately performs a primary weapon attack against your missile and gains one stress token. Your missile rolls 1 defense dice and is considered to be at the same distance as you are from the defender. If he hits, your missile is destroyed and your attack immediately misses. If he doesn't, your missile attack resumes and the defender rolls 0 defense dice.

- Special Proximity Mines rules : A player cannot drop a proximity mine if he lacks the necessary Proximity Mine cardboard token to place on the board, even when he would still have remaining warhead tokens on his Proximity Mines upgrade cards.

An A-Wing equipping an Ion Pulse Missile upgrade card, with squad point cost of 3, may place up to 3 warhead tokens on top of the Ion Pulse Missile card. This is so because the A-Wing has 10 Missile Capacity points as it has one single (Missile) ugrade icon, and every token placed on the Ion Pulse Missile card has a cost of 3 Missile Capacity points. The player couldn't place 4 tokens, as the total capacity cost would be 12, that surpasses the maximum Missile Capacity of an A-Wing.

A B-Wing equipping a Flechette Torpedoes upgrade card (sq point cost 2) and a Proton Torpedoes upgrade card (sq point cost 4), has a Torpedo Capacity of 20, from having 2 (Torpedo) icons on its upgrade bar. The player can place warhead tokens on these cards, with the tokens placed on the Flechette Torpedoes card costing 2 capacity points each, and the tokens placed on the Proton Torpedoes card costing 4 capacity points each. Because the Torpedo Capacity of the ships is shared among all the (torpedo) cards, the player could choose to place 6 tokens on the Flechettes and 2 tokens on the Protons for a total of 20 capacity points.

A TIE Bomber has 20 Torpedo Capacity points, 20 Missile Capacity points and 10 Bomb capacity points. If it equipped Flechette Torpedoes (sq cost 2), Ion Pulse Missiles (sq cost 3), and Seismic Charges (sq cost 2), the player would place 5 tokens on the Flechette Torpedoes, 3 tokens on the Ion Pulse Missiles, and 5 tokens on the Seismic Charges.

A TIE Advanced and an X-Wing are facing each other at range 3. The T/A shoots a Concussion Missile at the X-Wing, discards one warhead token, and rolls its 4 attack dice. This roll is modified by both players as usual. Then, the X-Wing player may choose to roll his defense dice as usual, obtaining +1 defense die from being at range 3. But because the T/A is in the X-Wing's firing arc and he has no stress tokens, he may choose not to roll any defense dice and instead gain a stress token and immediately perform an attack with its primary weapon against the missile at range 3, that would roll 2 defense dice total (1 for being a missile, +1 for range 3). The X-Wing player chooses the last, gains a stress token and he rolls his attack. If he hits the missile after the missile rolls its defense dice, the missile attack misses. If instead the X-Wing player misses, then the missile will probably hit him, as he chose not to roll any defense dice.

What about this?

New Ordnance reference card :

<snip>

That's going to be one big card...

Whoa, is there anywhere in the canon where a tie actually shot down an incoming torp? If so, bad ass...

I enjoy Proton Rockets, you need a focus to fire but you don't have to spend it. Really only useful with an Agility 3 ship. With a little 3 A-Wing build I had TL and focus to use Procket and destroyed a Decimator in one turn. Fun times.

Fixing ordinance could be as simple as this:

Either way, this is all increasingly off-topic in relation to the original question.