They cannot make it like Air War: Modern Tactical Air Combat where you keep track of such things as prop torque, air drag, and weight of the fuel. No one really wants to play a pen and paper simulation anymore, unless you LIKE that kind of stuff in the late 70s.

Well, there is a reason SPI and AH are not around anymore. I played this once in High School and at the time lacked the 3D spacial awareness to understand where every thing was and how to do much more than play. (One of my pilots ejected, the other, well we never saw a parachute open so assume he didn't.) Mind you Air War was around before computers so there may have been a reason for it being what it was.....

Newer games are understanding of the time constraints we live with, they also understand that a game should be about 2+ friends having a good time, so easy to play hard to master is the pressent game design trait to build a game to.

At this time I am only reading the rules but it looks like you as a playtester and the staff at FFG made a pretty good attempt at making this Star Wars gamer a happy man.

Exept that a squadron is 12 ships for both factions...

Yep. 3 flights, with 2 pairs of wingmen each.

I ran demos today and we did have someone with a similar critique on the squadrons.

One thing to remember, the Core set is only ~150pts per side, depending on the actual ship and upgrades and there are only 10 Squadrons.

Once the expansions come out and we are at 400pt games, I expect there to be 20-30 squadrons on the table! No imagine how much longer a game would take if we had to keep track of squadron tokens and/or shields.

The squadron models are more of a representation of the squadron, not an actual 'all squadrons have 3 ships' type of deal.

They cannot make it like Air War: Modern Tactical Air Combat where you keep track of such things as prop torque, air drag, and weight of the fuel. No one really wants to play a pen and paper simulation anymore, unless you LIKE that kind of stuff in the late 70s.

At this time I am only reading the rules but it looks like you as a playtester and the staff at FFG made a pretty good attempt at making this Star Wars gamer a happy man.

I have to say I am not a playtester for THIS game, and only have been part playtesting FFG games of Open Beta for the Star Wars RPG. Nor do i personally know any FFG game designers. I was a credited playtester for another game company and knew it's game designers. I just know the process and know some things have to be left out of the simulation for the sake of playability

When designing a similar Star Trek alternative using much of our favorite X-wing/Armada concepts I can tell you it get hard to let go of some ideas. There is the perception of how you think it should be, and the reality of how it has to be to not break the game.

I play War @ Sea and the aircraft come pre-painted and they're tiny.

The only issues I have with SW:A is that -

1) I would have liked the fighters to come pre-painted.

2) The Empire was Xenophobic, racist and sexist so why is there a female T.I.E. pilot?

3) There's no fighter launching and recovery on the ships.

4) You can't enter or exit the map by hyperspace.

However due to the K.I.S.S. aspect of SW:A I'm willing to live with these issues because the rest of the game is great to play.

The only issues I have with SW:A is that -

2) The Empire was Xenophobic, racist and sexist so why is there a female T.I.E. pilot?

Regarding this, the Empire has always had females in their armed forces. It IS racist, but more of a "glass ceiling" style sexism. They are happy for females to be grunts, but upper echelons are MUCH harder to reach than they would be for a male.

I must also say you can enter the map VIA hyperspace. Just need to pick the right objective cards

Plus in a six turn objective game, which I recommend you play if you have not, there is not a lot of time to launch or recover fighters. I think the pre-game setup assumes you have already seen the enemy and started that process, and the post game assumes the winner picks up and leaves or the loser runs.

I must also say you can enter the map VIA hyperspace. Just need to pick the right objective cards

Plus in a six turn objective game, which I recommend you play if you have not, there is not a lot of time to launch or recover fighters. I think the pre-game setup assumes you have already seen the enemy and started that process, and the post game assumes the winner picks up and leaves or the loser runs.

Yes I know which is why I'm willing to live with it.

However it would have been great to have been able to set up an ambush scenario where an Interdictor class SD forces the Rebel fleet out of HS or a gravity field kicks out your hyperdrive motivators :-)

I see the 6 turn limit as a mechanic used to make SW:A suitable for club night and tournament play.

But like I said I'm willing to live with this. Time for some house rules. Que satanic laughter.

Hey I am all for house rules. Keep us posted in the forum of what you come up with Vetnor. Could be a great way to expand the home games between friends.

The only issues I have with SW:A is that -

2) The Empire was Xenophobic, racist and sexist so why is there a female T.I.E. pilot?

Regarding this, the Empire has always had females in their armed forces. It IS racist, but more of a "glass ceiling" style sexism. They are happy for females to be grunts, but upper echelons are MUCH harder to reach than they would be for a male.

Anyway T.I.E. pilots and T.I.E.s where expendable, the Empire was know to just leave their T.I.E.s behind because they where cheap junk i.e. a plastic bubble with no life support, no shields, no hyperdrive, no fuel just two solar panels to power 2 cheap drive units with a seat and controls.

I don't like "EU" sources, I mean there's no way Admiral Thawn would have gotten anywhere in the Imperial Navy.

And I definitely don't like the one where Boba Fet donates his bounties to the orphanage because he's actually a nice guy.

But like I said I'll live with it.

Hey its part of the fun and greatness that makes a game community. Not everyone agrees. If we did, things would get boring. Maybe there will be room for the Chiss later as an expansion.

Personally I think FFG have nailed squadrons down perfectly. The rules allow you to quickly move and control swarms quickly without bogging down the game, just what you need for this type of game.

Problem is, if you don't like EU sources you won't like about 80%+ of all ships that come out

there were tons of female imperial soldiers in the original movies

you just couldn't see them behind their helmets and ships

Problem is, if you don't like EU sources you won't like about 80%+ of all ships that come out

There are some RPG ships I liked since I used to play the SW:RPG. i.e. Interdictor, Strike Cruiser etc but your right there's a lot of EU ships I don't like because they were unimaginative and just didn't fit into the creative niche that Star Wars had.

I used to like the ships that were made from giant space wasps. Does anyone hope that FFG will release those?

I agree Vetnor. If it doesn't look cool, or wasn't iconic, it probably won't sell. That said, give it some essential exclusive cards and you may find no matter what it is people will use it.

On the brighter side, Episode 7 + new books starting in December may have all sorts of new goodies that make all this banter otherwise moot.

I'm going off the movies where you don't see one female character in the Imperial forces but you see female characters in the Rebel forces.

Anyway T.I.E. pilots and T.I.E.s where expendable, the Empire was know to just leave their T.I.E.s behind because they where cheap junk i.e. a plastic bubble with no life support, no shields, no hyperdrive, no fuel just two solar panels to power 2 cheap drive units with a seat and controls.

I don't like "EU" sources, I mean there's no way Admiral Thawn would have gotten anywhere in the Imperial Navy.

And I definitely don't like the one where Boba Fet donates his bounties to the orphanage because he's actually a nice guy.

But like I said I'll live with it.

When in the movies do we see the Empire just leave their ties behind? May have missed it, but I dont remember that happening.

Back on topic, I am totally fine with the way fighters have been implemented. I think It's good that they kept it simple. I can imagine that a large game with a lot fighters working the way the OP suggested would need a large amount of table space just to lay out all the little character cards for the pilots/aces in each squad. Personally I'm glad that fighters are not the focus of this game.

Does math....Point for point TIE/Fighters do have more attack and hit points to a like value of X-wings. Below does not include extra dice or rerolls granted by Howlrunner notably. Or that you get almost twice as many stands to form your picket fence with as the Imperials. Your squad is just so numerous it was spread over two stands.

13pts=X-wing Squad x1, 4atk, 5hp

16pts=TIE/ln Squad x2, 6atk, 6hp

91pts=X-Wing Squad x7, 28atk, 35hp

96pts=TIE/ln Squadx12, 36atk, 36hp

Nothing says that the future can't have attachments to squadrons, but it should just be a singular attachment. The character name is just representative of the squad leaders tactical tendency as they lead the squad. Not the special talents and abilities of everyone in it.

I get where you are coming from OP, and that's one way of doing things, but it's just a perception thing.

X-wing squad has more HP representing the durability and shields of the fighters. The ties are cheaper, so their price is cheaper.

The higher attack and reduced attacks per damage is a great idea, but fiddly and unplayable. It would likely only detract from the game.

Does math....Point for point TIE/Fighters do have more attack and hit points to a like value of X-wings. Below does not include extra dice or rerolls granted by Howlrunner notably. Or that you get almost twice as many stands to form your picket fence with as the Imperials. Your squad is just so numerous it was spread over two stands.

13pts=X-wing Squad x1, 4atk, 5hp

16pts=TIE/ln Squad x2, 6atk, 6hp

91pts=X-Wing Squad x7, 28atk, 35hp

96pts=TIE/ln Squadx12, 36atk, 36hp

Nothing says that the future can't have attachments to squadrons, but it should just be a singular attachment. The character name is just representative of the squad leaders tactical tendency as they lead the squad. Not the special talents and abilities of everyone in it.

More Squadrons of with lesser individual stats is not always beneficial.

When modelling expected impact you have to take into account the loss of firepower you'll suffer as you lose squadrons. You may mass more dice to start but if you take early loses because of the lower HP your offensive output drops as well. Additionally a higher concentration of impact favors the support abilities we know of for Squadrons. A Squadron Command can only activate a finite number of Squadrons afterall.

Having read this thread in its entirety, there's not much more to add to the discussion but agree with the point that the focus of this game is on capital ships. Just look at the wave three ships that are planned, its gonna get good and scary real quick from a capital ship perspective, even had to change my wave one pre-orders as the gladiator will be nearly useless but the assault frigate should shine. Essentially, I believe FFG was used X-Wing to give us the feel of the "X-Wing" book series, i.e. the pulling hard on the stick to loop behind the interceptor feel. Here, they are providing us the "scarlet and emerald sheets of light dancing across the void" (love that line from Rogue Squadron) feel, as a result, its appropriate that the fighters are not the forefront of the game.

That being said, I like how the fighters work, especially their engagement rule. This gives them some strategic depth as you can force certain squadrons to engage as you choose, effectively peeling off escorts and 'ganging up' on one squadron, which Tie Fighters do very well with their low points and high numbers. Its also interesting to note that each squadron or wing is really just one fighter from X-Wing with +1 AD.

I also agree that Wave 1 fighters will really change up the feel fighters have on the table. Right now Imperials have screening fighters while Rebels have generalist fighters. The expansions will provide both sides with unique ships, although true to cannon, Imperials will be more specialist and Rebels more generalist (i.e. Tie Interceptor and Tie Bomber v B-Wing and X-Wing), which just adds to the flavor of fleet building. Additional the Wave 2 Rogues and Villains will probably give us the hero ships that have greater impact on the fight.

As a side point, when we played our game, my friend and I also struggled with the fighters. Being a rebel I thought his fighters were pretty much glass as I used the CR90a and a pair of X-wings to quash the numerically superior ties in the turns it took to peel off the VSD's shields and hull with the Nebulon B Support Refit and Luke. Noticing this, we popped open the X-Wing box and grabbed a defense die, allowing the ties to roll one defense die per squadron to represent their agility and gave my X-wings brace. Slowed the game down a bit and we are still checking for balance (brace can be surprisingly powerful on occasion, maybe we can only use it when I have shields, but then that is still too complex) but we enjoyed it as it was more akin to the books we enjoy reading.

I think FFG did a great job in making the fighters in Armada simple enough to not over-complicate the gameplay. However, they are still a vital piece to your fleet. A squadron command at the right time can really help you achieve victory. They are great force multipliers.

I think the engagement mechanics were a little over-blown. 1 squadron being able to tie up as many squadrons that can fit into range 1 around it, seems silly. But its something I can live with.

I play War @ Sea and the aircraft come pre-painted and they're tiny.

The only issues I have with SW:A is that -

1) I would have liked the fighters to come pre-painted.

2) The Empire was Xenophobic, racist and sexist so why is there a female T.I.E. pilot?

3) There's no fighter launching and recovery on the ships.

4) You can't enter or exit the map by hyperspace.

However due to the K.I.S.S. aspect of SW:A I'm willing to live with these issues because the rest of the game is great to play.

Actually there are a few famous Female Imperials

Here is an Admiral.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Natasi_Daala

Now on to the OP. If damage was dealt by ship then wouldn't each fighter get an attack against a ship? If that is the case, then ships would need more hull, more Anti-Squad defense, more anti-ship batteries, the list goes on. At that point you turn an hourish long game into 2-3 hours due to squadrons taking 3-5 turns to complete an engagement. It is impractical. . .

I really like how the fighters work in this game. Remember it is a capital ship game, so fighters play a supporting role. Although they are abstracted to a certain extent, the way you use fighter screens and the way they interact with the cap ships works well IMO.

The more a game gets bogged down in rules, the less fun it is to play (and more disagreements arise). There is a good balance in Armada, and once you click with how squadrons work, there are numerous tactics you can employ with them.

Also bear in mind that with just the core set, we are only seeing a small part of this aspect of the game. Once Wave 1 hits and we have a greater range of abilities, more strategies will open up.