What you dont seem to realise is that I am not talking about Rank 1 acolytes fresh off their feral planet.

According to the same book we are all using past Rank 6 the Inqusitor stops having those hundreds and hundreds of menials at rank 1.

The game we play also has large periods of downtime because thats the vibe I get about acolytes from the novels. During those downtimes the players do work their real jobs while being open to foiling threats. An Arbiter PC for example that went undercover in a crime syndicate on Scintilla was also gathering information about more than just criminal behaviour, a void born psycher started selling plans about how to navigate near cordoned areas to obvious criminal withs heretic intent and then proceeded to inform the authorities which ships would be trying to avoid them in that area and so on and so forth.

The problem starts when the game tells me that a bolter is rare and costs 450 thrones. That means that in Scintilla it goes down by one grade and can be found easily. 450 thrones? are we serious? I would rather if they simply gave astronomical prices on gear to represent that you simply cant find them. The prices in the book are basically meant for starting characters or max rank 2-3. As I said above one of the adepts is specialised in medicae... thats what he does in downtime... according to the same book he would make thousands of thrones in the span of a couple of months!

Even more wrongly to find something of good quality is just 1 step higher! and best 2 steps... so a best quality mono sword is (by the same rules the rest of the game is played) not even rare!!!

Lastly and because Flatline seems to have taken it personally. I am not telling you how to run your game, but to me it is not realistic that the players are facing enemies with Carapace, Mesh, Plasma Pistols, Psy Rating 4 plus Sorcery, whole criminal organisation with heretical intent who are ussually not clear on how they even have access to such gear and for the players that is just beyond imagining.

I would also like my players to find it tough and hard to survive some times but the way this game is designed and because of what the players are (members of an Inquisitorial retinue) it just doesnt make sense to me...

On an afterthought... I agree with this "it aint DnD so you should not have this loot mentality and quest for items". But I see it from the other perspective. Characters of rank 6 (ie Trusted and valuable and not dime a dozen) or so should not have to spend games sessions to get provisioned for a mission that the holy ordos gives them. They should not have to waist time debating on if they can be given armor to fight the alien menace... thats dnd mentality "we have to fight daemons so we need +2 swords, lets go on an epic adventure to find them". If the PC's in DH are charged with destroying a DaemonHost then whoever gave them this mission would offer them psycannon bolts cause he really DOES WANT THEM to succeed and not die!

Some times its not a matter of wits! in house of dust and ash when fighting against Master None-such its not a matter of cunning! Its downright combat and if the PC's are not well geared they die as the psycher cant do anything and the rest of the group has to kill this bastard!

PS>

I am not saying I am giving my players Power Armors and Force Weapons or even Land Raiders and Omnisiah Axes or Dragon Armor or even inferno pistols. But when talking about bolt pistols, carapace and anything relatively powerfull yet mundane I just dont see the problem. And as I say numerous times THATS my problem... I wish the game would give me a game mechanic way of not giving it to them!

macd21 said:

Erm, what about the Bastion Serpentis and the Tricorn? Sound like bastions and central houses to me. The Ravenor novels even mention these Officio Inquisitoriums that seem to be on most major planet (not that I like this vision...).

Luthor Harkon said:

Read the rest of the post. These aren't facilities of the Inquisition, but of the Calixian Conclave. There is a difference. Basically, they are funded by the 'local' Inquisitors. This means that the nature of such facilities varies a lot from Sector to Sector. As for the Calixis Sector, the resources and role of such facilities seems to have been left up to the GM. How many such facilities are there throughout the Calixis Sector? And do they just hand out gear to every acolyte who walks in the door making demands?

Luthor Harkon said:

The difference is subtle, but it's there. As an organisation, the Inquisition has essentially no resources whatsoever - it is, essentially, nothing more than a broad catch-all to refer to every single Inquisitor all at once. Individual Inquisitors, and by extension groups of Inquisitors with similar purpose/geographic area of interest, can muster assorted resources on a much smaller scale, which they often lend out to their allies. Within a sector, a group of Inquisitors - known as a Conclave, as the rulebook explains - both collectively and individually, will establish local bases of operations, networks of contacts, safehouses, even armed forces like Inquisitorial Stormtroopers. Those are made available to other Inquisitors within that area as is deemed appropriate.

When you get to Acolytes... well, it kind of depends on the Inquisitor in question - Acolytes are servants of their Inquisitor specifically, not of the Inquisition in general, and thus there is no "standard issue". They recieve whatever equipment and resources their master deems appropriate for their duties at any given time. That's all, no more and no less. That might include access to (or knowledge of) other established resources such as those described in the previous paragraph, it might not.

What you dont seem to realise is that I am not talking about Rank 1 acolytes fresh off their feral planet.

According to the same book we are all using past Rank 6 the Inqusitor stops having those hundreds and hundreds of menials at rank 1.

By the time the players are Rank 6, certainly their Inquisitor would probably take steps to get them better equipment. But whether he has the resources to do so varies from Inquisitor to Inquisitor.

The problem starts when the game tells me that a bolter is rare and costs 450 thrones. That means that in Scintilla it goes down by one grade and can be found easily. 450 thrones? are we serious? I would rather if they simply gave astronomical prices on gear to represent that you simply cant find them. The prices in the book are basically meant for starting characters or max rank 2-3. As I said above one of the adepts is specialised in medicae... thats what he does in downtime... according to the same book he would make thousands of thrones in the span of a couple of months!

A Bolter is Very Rare, but let's go back to the Bolt Pistol, which is Rare. On Scintilla, thats an Average Inquiry test to find one. Let's assume that the PC has a decent Inquiry test (40%) + 10% for Average difficulty = 50%. Looking at table 5.5 we see that searching for Rare items on Scintilla = 1D10 weeks per roll. So on average the PC can find one rare item every 11 weeks. Very Rare weapons are 10% more difficult to find and are 1D5 Months per roll. You'll be lucky to find one every year.

Even more wrongly to find something of good quality is just 1 step higher! and best 2 steps... so a best quality mono sword is (by the same rules the rest of the game is played) not even rare!!!

All of my PCs had monoweapons on their second mission. Seem common enough.

Lastly and because Flatline seems to have taken it personally. I am not telling you how to run your game, but to me it is not realistic that the players are facing enemies with Carapace, Mesh, Plasma Pistols, Psy Rating 4 plus Sorcery, whole criminal organisation with heretical intent who are ussually not clear on how they even have access to such gear and for the players that is just beyond imagining.

Well obviously it depends on the organisation and how realistic your GM is being. If it's a band of heretic thugs with three braincells to share between them, then no, they shouldn't have access to such equipment. If it's a Sector-wide (or greater) conspiracy with access to massive funds and contacts in high places, then more equipment isn't unreasonable. There are groups out there that are just as well equiped, if not moreso, than the Inquisition.

I would also like my players to find it tough and hard to survive some times but the way this game is designed and because of what the players are (members of an Inquisitorial retinue) it just doesnt make sense to me...

Then give them more equipment.

You seem to be working under the assumption that the GM is discouraged from giving them more gear. He is not. It is a matter of choice and play style. The fact is that some Inquisitors retinues can barely afford shotgun ammo, while others run around in power armour with blessed boltpistols and holy hand grenades. This is cannon - the resources an Inquisitor can call upon differs depending on his standing in the local Inquisition and the Imperium as a whole. This is most apparent in the Eisenhorn books, where

Only 375 Thrones for Mauler Bolt Pistol? Well, not very expensive once your PCs are Rank 6, but for the average Hiver it is still a few years of live saving. Therefore it is still rare in the Imperium. And you still have to run around in Sibellus for 1d5 MONTHS to find one.

I dare to say that the personal funds on Inquisitors differ greatly. One who is in a family doing it since generations has bank accounts worth Thrones in the billions (if not more), a single 'scum' who just got his Rank as full-time Inquisitor has limited funds. Add the personal view of the I's about what equipment is needed by his few/hundreds runts ... presto! Some are lucky to get their ammo free, others get a ower-armour as a present for good services.

I think if the pc's ever had to do a full frontal assault and bothered to ask the inquisition for supplies, they'd probabl;y be given flak armour and almost any basic las or SP weapon, maybe even bolt pistols. All of these would be marked with a HUGE -=][=- though, which would rule out their use in investigative work, make them targets on the street, etc. Think about the inquisition as having an armoury much like the army. They have as many las rifles as you could possibly want, but catechists, psycannon rounds, force weapons, warded power armour... all that cool stuff is presented as gifts to full inquisitors (and highest ranking acolytes), and/or made in secret forges on only a couple of worlds and nearly impossible to track. There are only a few hundred lathe weapons in the calixis sector. It sounds like a lot, but when one thinks of how many inquisitors and acolytes there are running around...

The same goes for inferno pistols, plasma weaponry, body blowers... all that cool stuff just isn't obtainable from even the military, unless the acolytes want to go to horrendous trouble. ("the armory is across the hive, I'm afraid, it'll take 24 hours to get there, and by then it'll be too late").

One of my characters raided the armory for the barbed chalice commissariat facility, and all they had were autoguns, stub automatics, hand cannons, and a couple of heavy stubbers. Sure, he could take as many as he wanted, but I haven't (thus far) had teh kind of player who feels the need to pick up every single weapon.

macd21 said:

What about cybernetics to replace limbs lost in combat ?

My current GM has this deal with the players: When a player loses a body part in combat the inquisitor will pay for a common quality cybernetic to replace it. If the player wants something better then they have to pay the difference. The inquisitor also pays for the post-mission medical care.

arcona said:

I came back here actually to apologize and clarify. You did not deserve what could easily be read as a snappish reply. I've been in a similar thread before, and it degenerated quickly. I posted many, many long specific, real world answers to promote my point of view, and it all was discredited and quickly started to turn ugly. When I finally offered to agree to disagree, I was basically told "no" because of blah blah blah blah blah. It put me in a foul mood on the topic in general.

I came off stronger than I wanted to in my post in hindsight, and I wish to publicly apologize to anyone who might have taken offense from my words. I regret it extremely and retract any offensive language.

I have absolutely no problem with inquisitors who provide acolytes copious amounts of equipment, but by the same turn, I request that people have absolutely no problem with me running my game a little/lot more lean. In the end, it's about having fun. I do not mean to intone that you are not having fun properly without following the rules according to my interpretation. I have found a happy balance to work in my games, and I assume, since you have a continued interest in Dark Heresy, that you have a happy balance in your games.

Again, I humbly apologize. I've been far too snappish on this board, and part of that is due to personal issues that should be left behind before I come onto this board. I will endeavor to be far more patient in the future.

What about cybernetics to replace limbs lost in combat ?

Again, it really comes down to your play style and what kind or resources your Inquisitor is supposed to have access to. Standard Bionic limbs are only Scarce, not Rare, so I don't really see a problem with such an arrangement.

My current GM has this deal with the players: When a player loses a body part in combat the inquisitor will pay for a common quality cybernetic to replace it. If the player wants something better then they have to pay the difference. The inquisitor also pays for the post-mission medical care

I have a similar arrangement in my own game, though less formalised. Basically their Inquisitor will probably arrange for a bionic replacement, but only a common one. If they want a better one, they have to arrange it themselves - their Inquisitor won't pay for any of it.

macd21 said:

But that is like saying 'it is not the USA, it is Ohio' or 'it is not the Imperial Guard, it is the 3rd regiment Brontian Longnives'. The Calixian Conclave is part of the Inquisition. I think I understand what you mean though and basically have the same opinion or vision (even though the Officio Inquisitorum mentioned in the Ravenor novels seem to imply something else).

As I said, my groups Interrogator (Sand) recently pointed out the custom of Petitioning (DH core book on page 281), so that the Acolytes can try to petition/request stuff from their feudal master (ie. the Inquisitor). So far they had not the courage to do so, but I am rather sure that the groups Assassin will petition for a Nomad in the near future. Still, he will have to pay for it most probably and the Inquisitor will use his contacts to the Forge of Fykos to make it possible that the Assassin gets one of the ten commissioned Nomads produced.

My players get their more 'standard' equipment by their respective (former) organization. The Arbitartor at the Adeptus Arbites and/or Divisio Immoralis headquarters, the Guardsman at Imperial Guard barracks, the Psyker at the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and/or Schola Psykana, the Tech-Priest from certain Mechanicus temples and the Assassin can buy a lot of stuff at the Sons of Dispater guildhouses.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The Inquisition as an organization has essentially no resources whatsoverer, because they essentially have all the Imperiums resources at their disposal. So, no need to collect 'own' resources (except some weird and arcane stuff like Catechist Crossbows etc. which no other Imperial organization has to offer).

Bilateralrope said:

My groups Psyker lost an eye in close combat with a daemonic entity and got it replaced by a cybernetic one when he came back to Scintilla. I will handle it that way further on I think.

The Inquisition as an organization has essentially no resources whatsoverer, because they essentially have all the Imperiums resources at their disposal. So, no need to collect 'own' resources (except some weird and arcane stuff like Catechist Crossbows etc. which no other Imperial organization has to offer).

No, the Inquisition as an organisation has no resources whatsoever because the Inquisition doesn't actually exist as an organisation. Technically, every Inquisitor is an institution unto himself. No Inquisitor outranks any other. No Inquisitor has to follow the orders of another or provide him/her with support or resources.

In practice, of course, things are quite different. While technically a Lord Inquisitor has no more authority than any other Inquisitor in the Sector, in practice most will respect his wishes. This is because an informal rank structure tends to form whenever Inquisitors gather, based on political machinations and respect. The only check on any Inquisitors power is other Inquisitors, so those who lack the respect of their fellows may find their plans blocked. The Lord Inquisitor is usually one of the most respected Inquisitors in the Sector, able to draw upon the support of many other Inquisitors.

What does this mean when it comes to requisitioning equipment and other Imperial support? As discussed before, abusive requisitioning can disrupt the Imperium, so tends to be frowned upon by the majority of the Inquisition. Doing it too much and they may decide to censure you, or even order your death. Doing it even a little will cost you some respect, as you get a reputation for recklessness. This does not mean that Inquisitors are without resources, however. Most can avail of two sources of resources - personal and communal.

Personal resources are those the Inquisitor has built up himself. Most Inquisitors, over time, build up a supply of resources themselves. Usually this means requisitioning Imperial resources in a non-disruptive way, perhaps filling out a request with the Department Munitorum, or buying equipment using funds seized from a heretic etc. They may have companies of troops on retainer, shares in mercantile consortiums etc etc. This they can dish out to their servants as they will. If the PCs Inquisitor is old and powerful, standard equipment won't be much of a problem. If he is a younger Inquisitor, they may be lucky if he can get them a monoknife and a medikit.

Communal resources are those provided by some of the local Inquisitors for use by just about any Inquisitor who wants it. These resources are funded by some of the aforementioned older Inquisitors who have built up a wealth of resources and contacts during their careers. They recognise that younger Inquisitors need weapons and equipment. Rather than force them to constantly disrupt the bureacracy of the Imperium to acquire such equipment, they build up stashes of it themselves and pool some of their resources to fund offices and strongholds on important worlds. They may make arrangements with local Imperial authorities to fund such facilities, or do so with their own income. Again, whether an Inquisitor can requisition goods from these offices mostly depends on his standing with the local Inquisition. Reputation counts for a lot.

Regarding the equipment that may be available in such facilities - it'll be good, but not brilliant. Again, the Inquisitors don't want to disrupt the Imperium too much, so most of the equipment they will stockpile will be of fairly standard quality. And when they do get good stuff, they don't leave it lying in a dusty storeroom somewhere - they give it to their own acolytes. You won't find a rack of powerswords or cases full of bolter rounds - those are difficult enough to get hold of (even for Inquisitors) that they are in high demand. As soon as they get any they are quickly issued to those acolytes who need them.

So, again: unless your Inquisitor is well connected and has lots of funds, he probably won't be able to help you get your hands on Rare or Very Rare goods. Scarce and Common ones shouldn't be too hard - but those aren't really a big deal anyway.

The Inquisition as an organization has essentially no resources whatsoverer, because they essentially have all the Imperiums resources at their disposal. So, no need to collect 'own' resources (except some weird and arcane stuff like Catechist Crossbows etc. which no other Imperial organization has to offer).

No, the Inquisition as an organisation has no resources whatsoever because the Inquisition doesn't actually exist as an organisation. Technically, every Inquisitor is an institution unto himself. No Inquisitor outranks any other. No Inquisitor has to follow the orders of another or provide him/her with support or resources.

I never said that the Inquisition as an 'organization' as such exists. Anyway, most 'organizations' are the sum of its parts, so the Inquisition as an 'organization' (or however you want to call it ) is the sum of its Inquisitors. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said anything else. Period. I just said it is weird to say xy is not a facility of the Inquisition, but of the Calixian Conclave. The Calixian Conclave is the Inquisition in the Calixis sector.

Still, please let us not argue about semantics...

[...] As discussed before, abusive requisitioning can disrupt the Imperium, so tends to be frowned upon by the majority of the Inquisition.

[...] Usually this means requisitioning Imperial resources in a non-disruptive way, perhaps filling out a request with the Department Munitorum, or buying equipment using funds seized from a heretic etc.

[...] Rather than force them to constantly disrupt the bureacracy of the Imperium to acquire such equipment, they build up stashes of it themselves and pool some of their resources to fund offices and strongholds on important worlds.

Disruptive? How 'disruptive' can it be to requisition a handfull of flak-vests from the Imperium and/or the Departmento Munitorum? They normally care for trillions of humans. Its like cuting of a single hair from the back of a mammoth...

They may make arrangements with local Imperial authorities to fund such facilities, or do so with their own income. Again, whether an Inquisitor can requisition goods from these offices mostly depends on his standing with the local Inquisition.

What do you mean by 'local Inquisition'? The Inquisition in the sense of an organization? I thought it does not exist. Or the sum of local Inquisitors?

You won't find a rack of powerswords or cases full of bolter rounds - those are difficult enough to get hold of (even for Inquisitors) that they are in high demand.

Why not? After all, a lot of commissars and officers of the Imperial Guard are armed with power swords and bolt weapons it seems.

Disruptive? How 'disruptive' can it be to requisition a handfull of flak-vests from the Imperium and/or the Departmento Munitorum? They normally care for trillions of humans. Its like cuting of a single hair from the back of a mammoth...

It depends. A few flak vests or lasguns? No big deal. Sure, it might mean that an arbite house or a PDF regiment will be slightly underequipped until they can get replacements, but that isn't too much of a problem. Of course, who cares about a few lasguns or flak-vests? Those aren't what your PCs are clamouring for.

What do you mean by 'local Inquisition'? The Inquisition in the sense of an organization? I thought it does not exist. Or the sum of local Inquisitors?

Sum of local Inquisitors. The point being that while those Inquisitors don't technically have any authority to countermand his orders or demands for equipment, in practice it comes down to respect - who has more. If an Inquisitor becomes too disruptive and demanding, other (more respected) Inquisitors will start to countermand his orders.

Why not? After all, a lot of commissars and officers of the Imperial Guard are armed with power swords and bolt weapons it seems.

Because powerswords and bolt weapons aren't mass produced by the Imperium. They are often amost relic-weapons, handed down generation after generation. Those few that are produced already have a destination in mind when created. Requisitioning those whenever an Inquisitor wants is going to piss off somebody... somebody who will then complain to the Lord Inquisitor. Those rare weapons that an Inquisitor does get hold of will be granted to his best acolytes, his personal retinue, or just kept for his personal use. They won't be kept in a storeroom for the PCs to pick up as they pass through town.

macd21 said:

Now THAT would be a lot of fun. Someone who whines and complains that they want, and indeed deserve a bolter, power sword, melta gun, hex wards, and a cadre of personal psykers assigned to them, gets exactly what they want, and then has to deal with the utterly ticked off, extremely powerful and potent person that piece of equipment was originally meant for.

It'd almost not be fair. Killing an acolyte isn't the same as killing an inquisitor, and unless the acolytes are particularly aware of who they pre-empted, they'd have an unknown enemy.

I'll remember that in case someone starts demanding easy access to incredibly rare equipment.

Inquisitors and Grandinquisitors have special priviliges, given to them (more ore less directly) by the Senate of Terra. It is their job to hunt the 'unseen' enemies. But no matter how much money or power they have they still remain humans. They know it, and the people they deal with know it. The Inquisitor can order an Admiral of the Imperial Navy to bomb away a planet with an Exterminatus, and he has every right/reason to do so, but they do it 'cause it is necessary.

But simple things like getting a few bullets four your guns or a new shiny sword for his subordinates? Now, why should he waste his precious time with that? Requisition things ment for other people who (likely) make more money a year than himself? Nope, he does not need that kind of extra trouble. A minimum intelligence and gathering-skill was needed before your PCs became members of the =I=, they should not have forgotten how to do this. If they want it so badly they should be able to get it themselves.

A gift for good service? Well, if they did good why not? But please never forget: Most items/weapons of higher sophistication are hand-made. A specialy trained worker or several have been working weeks/months to produce that new toy that makes your Acolytes drool over it. It's pricey, rare, and pre-ordered. Normaly someone else is waiting for it, be it a Noblemen, an imperial Officer (who filled out all the necessary documents in triplicate by hand), or just a worker sacrificing his live savings. The rarer, the higher the chance it's allready promised to someone else.

*g* kind a like women ^^