Lars said:

The casual player that I described (who tries to keep 4 decks going at once) has a couple of differences in his approach toward the game that make card shuffling more problematic for him than for the traditional CCG player:

1) This type of player (being "casual") may enjoy the game and enjoy the deckbuilding, but not play regularly enough to remember or want to keep track of all the card shuffling that he would have to do to switch cards from one deck to another.

2) More important -- this type of player is trying to maintain 4 decks that can all be played at the same time . In other words, he would like to have his buddies come over and play an instant melee with just the cards he owns, or (if joust) grab 2 decks out of the four and start playing without having to shuffle the right mix of cards into each deck.

To address your second point, 3x hand's judgment wouldn't fix the problem by itself, no. But it would help a lot. With the purchase of only two chapter packs, I could give a reasonable number of copies (2 each) to three different decks. Or, if I'm patient, I could limit myself to one chapter pack now and hope that an additional 3x of a different type of event cancel might be available in the near future.

Of course, a fixed pack of key neutrals (something completely outside the chapter pack cycle) would be even better, but I don't know if there's enough demand to make it profitable.

In short, I don't know if there's a way for FFG to address the needs of this group, but I hope they can figure one out. I suspect that many of the "board gamers" that FFG was trying to reach with the LCG Core Set would be easier to convert to this type of regular customer than to the standard CCG customer type.

jugglingfool said:

Every gaming group is different, no doubt about it. Some groups are like yours, where the players enjoy the deckbuilding just as much as the playing. Others have a mix of people, where there are more people who enjoy playing the game than there are people with the time, interest or money to do deckbuilding. Those groups can be part of FFG's ongoing revenue stream, but it requires a minimum of one person in the group who enjoys the deckbuilding enough to keep investing in cards to support the group. This is the customer base that I suspect is being underserved right now.

Even with a group like yours, which is mature and does a good job of sharing key cards and is content to play with less than a full set of everything, if FFG gave you the option to buy a pack of key neutrals to share among your friends, that would be a valuable addition to the product line even if you didn't "need" it.

Arma virumque said:

then i'm missing why they need 3x pf the 'power cards' let alone 3x for every deck. If you're playing w/ 4 balanced decks then stark or bara would need 1 or 2 hands judgment or condemed by the council (stark gets judgment, bara gets condemed) that would really balance out the dynamics of the core set decks (or decks that are built around that dynamic).

It seems to me that a lot of the complaints is that i want to be a casual guy hosting the games, but i still want to have the best deck i can possible build. Thats an okay rational, but you have to relize that LCG is still an offshoot of CCG where as you approach that level of competativeness (deck maximizing) you are going to have to spend more money. What LCG allows you to do is to cheaply (compared to other CCGs) and easily target the cards you want.

If the people you play with really feel they need to each have 3x hand's judgment (or any other card) ask them to share the cost with you (if you invite a friend to an MMO they get a free week, but i doubt you would pay their subscription costs).

LCG can be played anyway you want to play it. As you dwelve more deeply into deck building options your are going to have to speend a tad bit more money. Also, its not like you are only spending money on that one card. 3x hand's judgment gives you lots of other options. Having 3 eddards allows you to stick one in both a bara and a stark deck and then be able to attach a dupe (which i personally like the option for all my uniques) in one of them. As shadows get more and more popular having 1x-2x By the light of the sun in every deck isn't a bad idea.

There need not be a neutral pack becuase you can so much from almost every second or third purchase of a LCG Product (resin house cards aside). If i was really hard up for a lot of the nuetrals (bodyguard, milk, the seas, the streets, seductive promise, support of the kingdom, neutral characters) i'd pick up another core set. I was getting confused with how many reinforcement events i had in each deck so i picked up a 4th copy of that CP.

Please see FFG's response to this thread here:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=16518

The Spaniard said:

Excellent. Thank you for the fast response on this issue and i hope you are ready to make the right decisions for the upcoming products.

The link takes you to the Kingdom Hearts forum. What does the response say?

Max Wax said:

I think the link should lead to the sticky topic "Princess of the sun" in the AGOT general discussion. www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Yes, I just found it myself:

Dear All,

We have taken very seriously the feedback and issues voiced by the AGOT play-base regarding the content assortment of the "Kings of the Sea" expansion set for the AGOT LCG. Obviously, we were somewhat surprised, but certainly understand the valid points raised by many players. We therefore intend to ensure that future products such as "Princes of the Sun" (the premium expansion set that provides additional cards for House Martell) adds value to all aspects of the AGOT play community -- casual and competitive player alike.

FFG has been working on this issue in the past few days, and we'll be announcing a change in the "Princes of the Sun" contents sometime next week – so please stay tuned to the website. We're confident this change will address most of the player concerns voiced about "Kings of the Sun", as well provide FFG with the return needed to maintain a sustainable business.

Thanks for all of your comments on this issue, they're appreciated.

See you at GEN CON!

Christian T. Petersen
CEO
Fantasy Flight Games

[EDIT: This post was originally written to respond to Lars' comment several posts above, not to the news regarding the Kings of the Sun expansion. (Which is great news, by the way.) I considered deleting the post after I realized it looks silly in its current location, but since the discussion has moved away from the contents of Kings of the Sea specifically, and toward the contents of chapter packs generally, I figured the discussion was still relevant.]

@Lars:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't mind being the only guy in my group who buys cards, and I don't mind being the only guy who builds the decks. I'm not going to ask my friends to buy cards, as long as they enjoy the game and we have fun together.

I hope you'll allow me to point out that you distorted my argument when you said that I was asking for 3x of every power card or that I wanted to build the best deck I can possibly build. I never said those things. My only argument is that for certain utility cards (particularly neutral cards with effects that are underrepresented in the current card pool), it makes the game more enjoyable to have enough to throw a couple (i.e., 2) into each deck.

It may be easy for a player with years of experience to say, as you did, "Throw a Judgment into Stark and a Condemned into Bara, and now your core set decks are balanced." I don't have that kind of experience. (Why those two decks? Doesn't Lanni need anything? Or Targ? Those are rhetorical questions -- the answers are probably obvious to you, but they're not obviuos to a casual player.)

Besides, I don't want to play with slight variations on the core set decks. If I'm spending $10 a month on chapter packs, I'd like to experiment with new deck archetypes just the same as everyone else. (And note that "experimenting with a deck archetype" is not the same as trying to build a tournament-worthy power deck.) So if I build a Bear Island deck, what do I tell my friend who just got beat -- "I'm sorry you couldn't do anything about my Island, but I put my only location hate cards into Lannister, and you played Targ"? It's so much easier, from a casual player's perspective , to think "I'd like to experiment with a Bear Island deck so I'll throw 2 location-hate events into each of the other three decks to even things out." I might consider buying 2 chapters packs to get the necessary six cards in that situation, but I'm not going to buy 6 chapter packs no matter how useful the other cards in those packs are.

Don't get me wrong here -- I'm not saying that all cards should be 3x, or that I have a right to build any deck I want and have it be tournament-ready, or anything silly like that. I'm just agreeing with what others have said, that for players (or play groups) that are trying to balance four decks, neutral cards are a problematic part of the LCG distribution pattern, and are made (much) more so when they are printed 1x.

[And now I'm done on this topic. Like everyone else, I'm thrilled that the company has responded so publicly to the community's opinions on Kings of the Sea.]

Arma virumque said:

I was combining various arguments into one response which i think touches on both complaints.

Arma virumque said:

But now you are trying to squeeze the LCG format into something it wasn't designed for and yelling at the designers for the problems that are arising. You seem to be in a hybrid. You want to host the games but be the only one buying the cards (which the core set right out of the box allows you to do and the Greyjoy expansion adds a house to). Then you are saying you want to deck build for 4 decks, have them all balanced, but be able to do so with limited supplies. Its kind of like my discomfort w/ MMOs. i really like the subject matter a lot of them touch i just hate having to rely on other people to be able to advance thorugh the games (dungeons and end game raids). Should I demand that the makers of the MMO release a singler player version of the game so that i can afford it?

I wish the Greyjoy expansion cost less, or had MUCH more cards (plots etc; not only for Greyjoy).

I wish the new Kings/Queens cards had new art! Use card's old art if you make a reprint only please. That will make things easier for those who play other game formats besides LCG.

I do not mind the expansion having a single copy of each card, just do no call it a deck.

I would like it to be in a smaller box, not as big as the Core Set. That would save paper and make the box easier to travel with.

Sell AGOT accessories (for instance resin house cards) the same as you sell Call of Cthulhu accessories (the bag of Cthulhu for instance) - separately.

Just my few cents to the discussion.

Max Wax said:

I'm just gonna hit each point one by one:

The price is a bit much, but like granny always said if you wish in one hand and cr...nevermind. It does seem a bit high to everybody, this is clear, but it is what it is, I guess.

The art doesn't matter to me really, and they save money with the older art I'm sure. It shouldn't cause too much confusion in older formats anyhow, since for the most part icons, strength, etc. are different (plus, nobody played the old King Agenda Viserys =P).

They never called it a deck...so I guess that's kind of a moot point. It's an expansion to the core set.

The smaller box I agree with; go green, amirite? Oh wait...I don't much like hippies. Maybe we need a bigger box?

AGOT accessories? That would be cool. I wish I could buy me some cool counters or a stone house card or something along those lines. I always liked the leather deck boxes, as well. They were swell looking. We are seeing the card sleeves at least...

Arma virumque said:

I concur.

Lars said:

? Lars, you seem to understand nothing. If you buy any CP, you are forced to buy cards for ALL houses. So, if you got these all cards, then why not build 4 decks? (soon 5 ). It would be easier and more fun, if you have (after buying x3) 9 neutral cards & 3 unique Stark locations INSTEAD 3 neutral cards & 9 unique Stark locations. The second option is just waste of cardboard. So, do you want to tell me that the LCG format was designed for wasting paper?

Lars said:

Aside from the comment about my yelling (which I can't figure out), perhaps this is the core of our disagreement right here. I'm not convinced that the LCG format wasn ' t intended for my play style. Quite the opposite, in fact -- I consider my play style a natural outgrowth of the board-game market that FFG was deliberately targeting.

All I'm really suggesting is that there are ways in which the LCG distribution could be improved for the board-game market, without hurting anyone else's play style that I can see.

On the other hand, I've also allowed several times for the possibility that the demographic of "casual players who try to run 4 complete decks" might be too small for FFG to profitably worry about. If that's true, I'll be sad but not angry or bitter. I run a business, so I understand that you have to keep focused to stay profitable.

Some stores explain the expansion box content as a Greyjoy deck (vide Potomac for instance).

Being green is a good thing for all of us. I do not see a need for so huge boxes for LCG starters or expansions.

And I am a European and the price here is too high for what you get in the box.

foxpillow said:

foxpillow said:

This is from the FFG site:

"Kings of the Sea fully introduces House Greyjoy - the reavers and raiders of the Northwestern coasts of Westeros - to the A Game of Thrones metagame with a fully-playable Greyjoy deck."

I haven't gotten the expansion yet and I've never played with it, so I'm not one of the ones complaining about it not being a legitimately playable deck, but perhaps the point is not actually moot.

Well, I stand corrected. Isn't very "decklike" then, I'll grant that much. Though the Kingdom locations make up for the lack of redundancy among the basic resource cards, I think.

Max Wax said:

I think we should try playing it before deciding whether it's a deck or not (I haven't played it, so I'm not saying it'll hold up, but I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt).

The box is not Core Set size, it's much smaller (8"x8"x1.5")

Arma virumque said:

Hear, hear...throw us full deck hosters a bone!

I'm also fumbling in the dark when separating which neutral cards go where...but if you want, I'll send you what I've done with my decks Arma

Somewhat directed at Lars, also trying to stress the point Arma is making.

The point here really is that the LCG -format really suits boardgamers or old card gamers (such as me) really well, in allowing one player to purchase the cards and run a nice group of decks for his friends (who might like games like this, but don't have the inclination to spend money on them, or the required time to play around with deck construction). And when you don't have that many hardcore card gamers in the are, it's better to play like this than not at all, eh?

I myself am a fan of the whole LCG format, and think it's been carried out pretty well. So I'm only trying to offer constructive criticism. And the only slightly off thing about the LCG format so far has been the odd tendency to put only one copy of core-type neutral cards in the chapter packs, paired with three copies of each unique in-house location. And in some cases (Bear Isle) I even slightly agree with this being a good choice, since Bear Isle is a good card to build around. But the main point is, that the current distribution makes it less worth it to buy several copies of a chapter pack. Instead of getting to build two different decks around Shadow Politics and abusing Intrigue Challenges (this would need 4-6 copies of the card, and would be good for Martell, Targaryen, Lannister...), you get one more Shadow Politics and you now have six Tunnels of the Red Keep (not a bad card in itself, but you wouldn't especially want to build 2 decks around it). Also putting more of the neutrals in would help players who're buying the chapter packs (several copies) with friends and dividing the cards, because they will get enough of both the in-house cards and the neutrals.

And since we're in the Kings of the Sea thread, I have to say I can't wait to get the expansion. (The resources can be fixed with the Street of Steel, Street of Sisters cards anyhow, even if you're playing with just one copy of the core set. And the new Kingdom locations are hopefully worth it.) Also, fun to hear that FFG reads these boards. =)

[ And no more from me to this thread either, I think the point has been made ]

WWDrakey said:

I'm not arguing against this idea or notion. Where i'm seeing a square piece being shoved into a round hole is that when this group morphs into wanting to build 4 decks w/ 3x of every neutral card in it. You bring up shadow politics and say that three houses can use it, that doesn't mean that 3 houses have to use at all at the same time. One week run it in lanni, one week run it in targ, the following martell. That way you can still expiriment, can still use all the hosues at once and still 'abuse (fyi not much abuses going on with shadow politics, its one of those OHHHH SHINNY!! cards that in play just kind of sits there) INT challenges'. at 3x od this experiementation you have a full play set of the chapter pack and can tinker with all kinds of other things. Yeah you'd get 9x of tunnels fo the red keep, but you also get 3x Tyrion (great for a lanni deck as he can trigger himself or put a dead dupe into shadwos for the agenda).

Heck you get 3x of each treaty and you can have a GJ v Martell night where you play 6 players each player picks a non-gj/martell house and gets either treaty of the isles or treaty of the south and then everyone needs 10 power to win, make all of the GJ decks winter and all of the Martell decks summer and your easily using a lot of your extra cards (across many cps) in a fun, unique way that makes for a quicker game so maybe that night you get 2 6 people melees in.

IMO, while i could nitpick and say that I don't like that there aren't 3X of the resources etc, I'm just happy that I finally get to play with my house on equal footing with all of the others. It's definately a good thing that FFG is listening, but hell, complaining about anything would make me look like a complete hypocrite since I would have done unspeakable things to get my hands on this thing a month earlier.

Let's also not forget that this expanison is trying to solve more issues than just bringing Greyjoy back into the game. It is also trying to fill in the holes that were missing in the card pool when 5KE and ITE got rotated earlier than what was expected when the Core set was designed. This expansion is trying to accomplish a lot as far as enhancing the card pool (traited plots, Kings/Queens, Kingdom locations etc.). Hopefully, having these cards will make the other useless cards we've all had sitting around useful now. Having more 1X copies allows more cards to accomplish this task..

Again, for the price perhaps we could have expected more cards to accomplish this task, but... so be it.

I understand if people want 3x of certain cards, but guessing which cards to make 3x is never going to be easy, or please everyone. IMHO, fixing the card pool at this time was a good choice to make. In the end, that aspect of this expansion should please all types of players. I, for one, am glad FFG took the time to address the issues in the card pool.

Let's just hope they do the same with Princes of the Sun, as far as helping the game as a whole and giving each house something.

I'd be pissed if it was an expansion completely sucking the Martells off.

Maybe I'm not getting what you guys are saying...but from what I've read of Christian's open letter, the content change only applies to the Martell expansion (ie: Princes of the Sun) and not the just released Greyjoy's Kings of the Sea. Although it is possible he meant Kings of the Sea but mistyped that into Princes of the Sun, it is far too late to make changes to the Greyjoy expansion at this point in time.