Xrishadowchaser said:

Yeah! You know what? I suggest that the price of Martell pack will be 100$

You will buy it anyway. x3 of course...

I bought all CPs 1x... I'm going to buy Greyjoy 1x... maybe I'll buy another "Tower of the Hand" with friends and STOP (I think it is a great CP for all houses)... and I'm feeling competitive...

why not?

And all the things about mathematics have no sense in my opinion...

60 cards ---> 30 euro

1 CP --> 40 cards --> 20 effective cards --> 10

3 CP --> 60 effective cards --> 30 euro = the same of Greyjoy

someone could say that effectively 3cp are 120 cards

and I say that effectively there are only 60 cards in 3xCP because we have 60 cards not used (you can have at maximum 3x in a deck, not 6x)...

So at the end I think the price is the same... 60 cards 30 euro Greyjoy - 3x CP 60 card effectively (20 type 3x plus unusable 60 card)...

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe it is too late to speak about math... i'm going to sleep! :-)

It was only to say that I agree that expansion should have more card, cost less and so on... but I want to defend FFG because all products that I buy (And I buy them from USA adding shipping cost to italy) have high quality standard and never displease me...

and at the end the most important thing is that:

The 60 cards of the Greyjoy are AMAZING and as a Stark player I think I will play a lot the Isles insted of the wolf!!! :-)

GOOD NIGHT TO ALL

Rogue30 said:

Actually I will buy the Martell pack at whatever price they put on it. But Martell is my favorite house so I am a little biased. LOL. Even if you buy 3x of the greyjoy packs it's still better than paying $90 for a Magic booster and not getting but 1 copy of all the rares. Then you may not even get all the rares you want. I do agree that the Core Set was an awesome deal. But you can't in all reality expect FF to stay afloat by putting wholesale prices on all the sets. If you step back and take a second you will see its not as bad as it first looks.

I play all sorts of other games too not just AGOT and even on my limited budget find it very easy to pay for my AGOT habit. If it wasnt for the LCG format I would prolly have to quit card gaming all together.

Hmm.... I was planning all day about posting here to moderate my position somewhat. After reading a couple more pages of comments, I'm uncertain as to where I should start, and really what I should address.

I suppose my first concern right now would really have to do with the language and tone of these messages. Yes, I get it, many of us (myself included) think that a bad decision was made on the part of the Greyjoy box, be it a price to card ratio, the extra copies of the resin housecard (if you buy multiples, as the game rules encourage) or a combination of the two. I think, however, that we're all adults here, or at the least we should act like it. I'll readily admit that I have a tendencey to come of as rather... snarky. That being said, wild accusations on the side of the offended about being lied to are overly reactionary and borderline. As well, heated replies essentially telling us to quit being little babies (I'm consolidating) can likewise be excessively inflammatory. Think just a little bit before you post guys. I know I certain am after taking a step back and seeing how things are degenerating.

Second thought- For those doing computations on the value of the cards, do calculate a chapter pack as including 40 cards, not 20. The cost to design and develop 20 cards should be the same whether you include a couple extra copies of the some of them. Where the cost should be different is in printing and shipping. It should indeed cost more for 40 cards to be printed, packaged and shipped than it does for 20. We're talking about the individual pieces of cardboard here, not the unique text on them.

Third- Yes, I understand that companies have to make money. I don't begrudge FFG that. But as well, I regard responsibility towards the customers to be of equal importance. To wit, I have a large part in running our city's largest fireworks tent for the last several summers. Any of you that have some idea about that industry at all know that the markup on those items is huge! And of course, the pricier the item, the more money we make. However, I refuse to sell customers something that I don't consider to be a good value. We're required to have certain items on the table by the company that we work for and of course, we can't set the actual markup ourselves, but what I can do is point people to things that are worth what they're paying for it in relation to the cost and value of similar items. I know for a fact that this year I stopped customers while they were in the checkout line and suggested that they put certain items back on the table and pick up one of several recommendations instead. Sure, we might have made less money on that customer that during that particular sale. But I guarantee that they went home to shoot those fireworks and were pleased with the product that I sent them towards and the money they paid for it because I was willing to stand by its value. And I'm certain that being knowledgeable about what people like to see and poinnting people to the quality products will keep them talking about our service and bringing them back year after year. There's a reason that we're the largest and most succesful tent in the town for the last 8 years that we've run it (and frequently a top preformer for the company we work under).

I'm saying this so that it's clear that I want only the best for this game. In order to do that, I understand that the company needs to do the best. But also the customers need to recieve the best. So finding the most opportune intersection of the two is the key, and if it comes down to it I say lean towards the customers' side. Sadly, I don't currently feel that the Greyjoy expansion meets in the appropriate place. Will I still buy three copies of it? Likely. Will I buy three copies of the Martell expansion? I don't know yet. There is hopefully still time for FFG to reconsider and tweak the pricing and box contents. If it still comes out at the same point as the Greyjoy expansion, I may just find myself skipping it.

I'm just curious about the posts like fabest's complaining about having to buy 3x of every chapter pack to stay competitive. Do you have a really active meta where you live? My impression was that at least in most places the game is just played in small groups with occasional larger events for different groups to get together. I'd think you only need 3x of every chapter pack if the other players in your group were also purchasing 3x of every chapter pack. Maybe you guys should consider limiting yourselves to 1x or 2x if you want to keep the games balanced and not compel everyone to spend so much on the game.

Lars said:

I'm confused. Does a competitive Targ deck need 3x Ancient Enemies? Isn't the only 1x Targ card in that pack the plot? Neither of the 1x events seems like a 3x auto-include. Am I missing something?

you're right, only 1x is needed even for targ. i had forgetton that dragon thief and dragon bite were both 3x in the chapter pack (see not all the good cards are 1x per pack )

What you are missing is that deckbuilding is at its best when you have access to all the cards, when you are not limited because you only have 2 Flamed Kiss. I love deckbuilding and to appreciate it fully I need all the cards I want in my deck. Not all the cards in the world, all the cards for the deck I'm thinking of.

I don't like when I have a deck and I say to myself : "it's okay but it would be better with this card I don't have". It's not about winning or losing, it's about creating a nice deck that runs smoothly

But you're right, my meta is small and we play less & less often. Maybe if we were playing twice a week I would buy the GJ expansion x3, but for casual play it's too much, even if I'd love to build a great GJ deck.

Couldn't have said it better myself

The problem is that good neutrals cards are usually x1 in chapter packs and these are the ones no one trade (as they can fit in any deck).

"Ancient Enemies" was a great pack, especially for Targaryen players but even for all the Houses. I didn't complain about the CoA chapters (it would have been perfect with 3 "To be..." and maybe 3 "Overzealous Scouts" (now that initiative can make you draw cards) but it's ok for me to buy some packs twice or thrice as long as some others are only needed once.

+ You can trade non neutral cards with players that are not playing your House (so the "To be..." cards should be quite easy to trade, even if i didn't manage to trade one by myself ^^).

If they put all non-unique neutrals x3 in each chapter pack that would be fair, and I would be happy. Even if there is a strong Targ card only once, I know I can trade it with other House players, in my meta on on the web.

I'm sure some of the veteran players would be willing to send you some Greyjoy resource cards for free Fabest. A lot of us have dozens of extras lying around.

Thx a lot Kzer-za but I won't play GJ finally

And shipping to France is not that cheap ^^

fabest said:

Excellent analysis. It´s all about the important neutral cards being short on suppply. It´s also my impression that it isn´t a big problem if very good inhouse cards are included only once per pack, expansion, whatever it´s all about the necessary neutral cards. So you´ll end up with enough cards to build a deck for every house in theory, but in fact you can´t because a whole lot of necessary neutral cards are missing.

FFG did a good job on the A time of ravens chapter packs cycle, there were enough necessary neutral cards included thrice in the cp (ravens etc.) to build a competive deck for every house (at least for the 4 CS houses) . WIth the new chapter pack cycle it´s just the other way round, especially the cards that feature the shadow mechanic are very short on supply:

• City of secrets: Shadow politics , Dragon skull (it´s not neutral but sinc eteh shadow agenda allows house x only cards in the deck you´ll want to play the charachter remove card in a lot of your shadow decks)
• A time of trials: Condemned by the council (first decent location removal card in the enviroment, necessary for every competative LCG deck which has at least some intrigue icons in my opinion)
• The tower of the hand: The Hand's Judgement (first and absolute necessary needed cancel event, easiyl comparable to the impact of paper shield)
• Kings of the sea expansion: about every neutral charachter, event in that set.

It's nice when someone agrees with you ^^

And you're right about the Raven cycle, cards in the chapters were quite fairly implemented (except maybe for Samwell who is often an auto-include, neutral and x1, but like I said I'm ok with buying SOME packs x3 if I need to + Samwell is not as good in every deck as the cancel or locations control events). That's why I didn't complain earlier (and nobody did I think). CoA cycle was good too.

I have many things to say but I can't speak english no more, my brain is hurting (it's the end of the work too).

To summarize, imagine there is only 1 white raven card in the Winds of Winter Chapter pack... That's what they are doing with King's Landing cycle : buy 3 of each if you wanna build decent decks. And I'm not speaking of the Gj expansion!

Notice that I don't complain anymore, I just tell facts. Like someone said previously, if I don't like it I don't buy it. That's what I'll do, no problem about that, I have many other things to do in my life (as everybody here I hope ^^) and I don't have the money to do them all, so choices have to be made. AGOT is going to be too expensive for me. I keep my decks and cards I bought, the game is great so I will be happy to play it again. There's no need to buy all the new cards to enjoy the game.

so basically, and correct me if i'm wrong, the problem w/ LCG (outside of overpaying for the resin house card X3) is that with the new cycle it costs $30 a month to be competitive instead of $10 and that is too much?

Old ben, how much did you pay to be competitive in the CCG era? how many kingdom locations or other rares did you buy 1x of for $10 or more?

i disagree about needing 3x shadow politics and 3x drasgon skull to be competative in all decks. Yes you could use them, but you don't need to use them. Condemed is not the only location control in the game nor is it the only one coming. Plus it is most efficient in only half the houses right now.

The event cancel is for sure needed 3x, but thats one out of 3 so far. so maybe you spend $10-$20 for two months and then $30 this month.

Lars said:

$ 30 a month isn´t a problem for me. And it was the amount which is described in that LCG model letter. However it´s a problem for some casual players to spent $ 30 every month, because every cp is needed thrice, instead of only once or twice- that´s fabest critic point. My critic point is that in the pre- City of secrets time you had enough cards to build a lot of decks from the cards you get, because the disribution of key cards was usually better (some exceptions). So if i want to build 2-3 competive decks i could either spent $ 60 ($90) a month on cp, swap the cards from deck to deck (which is unsatisfying) or make some copies/ proxies (which is also unsatisfying).

Lars said:

I wasn´t necessary for me to chase down any single rare card for $ 10 or more i never purchased a kingdom location, Eyrie etc. for that price, i recall that i purchased a Sam for $ 7 , but it wasn´t really necessary because i already owned two at that time.

I used to buy 2 displays of every expansion (about $ 75 each, 4*75 = $ 300) and 4 dispalys of every main set ($ 300), that´s around $ 600, probably add $ 100 for some missing rares, so $ 700. At best times i had around 25 decks (10 - 12 being really competive).

For LCG it´s 12 * $30 = $ 360, assumption i want every card thrice i should add 2* $90 = 180 $ (Greyjoy and Martell expansion), that´s $ 540 add $ 50 for purchasing "fixed rares" or maybe some additional chapter packs. So it´s roughly 590 $. I can build around 5-6 satisfying decks out of the whole cards. If i wanted the same variety of decks and cards without having to rebuild my decks and swaping cards from deckto deck it would be necessary to spent easily the double amount of cash.

So yeah, the total saves for me are around $ 110 a year. But i would rather spent the money and have the freedom to build as much different decks i can, instead of limiting me to just a few decks. ~ If you are nuts enough to have such a time and money consuming hobby it should be done right. :-)

Lars said:

I think the shadow mechanic is fine as well as the agenda. If you want to use the shadow agenda you should have the claim to throw the best available shadow cards together and i think that these two are part of the pool. Arya and Tyrion are of course also such cards, but they are unqiues so it´s a little bit different here.

Well and i never said that condemned by the council is the only available location control cards, it´s just the only decent location control card available for every house which can deal with any kind of location. Let´s have a look at the available location control cards:

• Support of the kingdom, CS, only one copy per CS, works only against gold/influence providing cards- it´s good, but won´t help against every location
• fleeing to the wall, CS, doesn´t help against a special location
• there´s one attachemnt for Bara and one for Stark that could kneel a location for one round- which is not really location control
• Lanni has an attachment against gold providing location (dependant on the summer/ winter theme
• Bandits - "i´ll discard your.... ummmh.... wait... what?" - granted they couldget better for LCG if people buy more sea of the kings expansions, also bound to summer/winter theme
• Mance Raider, see Bandits
• Horn of winter, the only card which is able to remove every kind of location but for me it has to much requirements (winter, 2 gold investment, win a militar, no attachment removal/ no charachter control on opponents side)
• wintertime marauders - probably the best location removal, but targets non-uniques and is really expensive OOH
• the new event from the kings of sea, i think we´be already had enough discussion about the rarity of the cards in the set

Everyone surely has his/her own calculation for the LCG model compared to the CCG model. My personal calculation says: "i´m not really saving much and get so much less for my investment".

Old Ben said:

I'm pretty sure that it works out to be cheaper for me out-of-pocket compared to what I paid for cards from the CCG releases. Also important to me is the "savings" in time/hassle that I had to put up with chasing down CCG rares. There wasn't much of a singles market when I started playing beyond a couple of sellers on eBay, so I had to put up with that to get missing rares. But I agree the question of cost can differ significantly for people depending on what they want as a card pool, number of decks, etc.

Currently we live in a society where when a new DVD or CD or video game comes out, we get to see two versions of it -- the regulsr version and the Special Edition, often with some bells and whistles and extras that cost more than the regular version. Perhaps this is a model that FFG can emulate in regards to new expansions. Some players (like myself) are excited for the resin House Card -- but I don't need three of them. Some players couldn't care less. IF they released onee version, in the big box with the bells and whistles (and charged $30 or even $35 for it) there are those of us who would buy it. And then release the rest of the cards in the skinny box (ala Red November, the Anima card game) for $20, well, then I can buy two of them. And some players would skip the Limited Edition set with the House Card and just buy a copy (or copies) of the the Regular Edition.

They could even have the Limited Edition copies signed and numbered, with Nate or even Eric signing the boxes, or a certificate inside. Yes, I would pay extra for that -- just like I would pay extra money for a Kevin Wilson LE Arkham Horror Expansion. And the players who only want the meat-and-potatos of the game could buy simply that.

Other than that, I do intend to buy multiple copies of the Greyjoy expansion. Just maybe not right away.

From a casual player's perspective, I think Old Ben and fabest have a good point in the card distributions for the KLE chapter packs being a bit off. Especially if you're trying to keep a set of decks (one per house) to play with your friends, and compared to that of the other expansions.

Let's take for example Shadow Politics (1X) and Tunnels of the Red Keep (3X) from City of Secrets. Shadow Politics is something I would call a core card, allowing you to efficiently build a deck based on intrigue challenges, whereas Red Keep is what I would think of as a support card, which in addition is both unique and a requires you to have a deck geared on playing lots of shadows. Now, if you would like to have, say one Lannister and one Martell deck built around shadows and intrigue challenges, you would like to have at least four Shadow Politics cards (2 per deck, to at least see one in a given game). So that would mean you would have to buy four copies of this chapter pack, right?

Now, what would you do with the 12 Tunnels of the Red Keeps?

This becomes even more apparent in the Time of Trials Chapter Packs. You're given one copy of Condemned by the Council (a card you'd definately want several copies of in several decks), three copies of both Sweet Cersei and Storm Dancer (not cards you'd want three copies of in a deck, imho), and again one copy of Fistful of Coppers (good for giving the Lannisters something to keep in the shadows to fuel Tyrion and Cersei).

I think making most non-unique neutrals 3X would be a good distribution, since this would allow you to use all of the cards you're getting, whether you're buying three copies or not. Just a thought. The habit of putting only one copy of an "essential" neutral card in a chapter pack is a bit irritating and seems like a too-blatant hook for making people buy several copies of a chapter pack.

I agree that its annoying when the "build around" cards are a 1 of. I had this problem with the Cthulhu LCG - each Mountains of Madness pack had 4 polar cards, which isn't enough to make a polar deck with. On the whole I love the LCG model though, and it saves me money compared to a CCG. Maybe its because I'm a casual player.

I'll be buying 2 Greyjoy expansions, as I did with the core set. I've bought 1 of each chapter pack, so my collection has cards in 1, 2, and 3 copies. Somehow I can't bear having only 1 or 3 copies - I need some 2's for a smoother spread. Does anyone else get that?

As for the spare marker, I have plans to keep a set of these for use, and use the spares to practice my painting skills. I've got 6 spare Cthulhu domain markers to paint first though.

My biggest disappointment is that I can't buy it yet. Can't complain about distribution because if I want a card I can buy it. No ebay no secondary market just buy the pack it is located in. How can I complain when they have made it easy to buy exactly what I want. They did let me buy as many as I wanted? Seriously, can you expect them to anticipate exactly how many you want and put that many of each card in. I bet if they did there would be people who would complain because now they have cards that were packed 3x that they only wanted 1x of. Some people are never happy.

FFG - releases GoT as an LCG but has no Greyjoy

Players - Complain becuase they love Greyjoy

FFG - hears the complaints and releases the Greyjoy expansion

Players - Complain becuase they didn't get enough cards they wanted for their money, becuase they want to be competetive and need 3x of each.

Casual players - not that upset because they will spend what they can and build with what they have.

FFG - You can't win, they will be upset no matter what. Try to make a buck because if you don't you will cancel this game and I like being able to get new stuff. Even if I might have to buy a few extra chapter packs to get all the cards I want.

jugglingfool said:

Except, in this case I would argue that it seems like the people most upset are casual players who want to be competitive without spending too much money. Most true casual players should be happy for the reasons you mention, and most competitive players were expecting to buy three in the first place (even if the price is a little high).

Deathjester26 said:

Don't forget the casual players who are trying to keep four (or soon, five) balanced decks for their playgroup. They don't fit neatly on a linear spectrum from "casual" to "competitive."

These players (and I'm one of them) are not trying to be "competitive" in the sense that I think you're using the word, but they're finding it hard to take advantage of the most compelling new additions to the card pool. For example, everybody in these forums has agreed that the game needs some location hate and event cancels, but with 1x "Condemned by the Council" and 1x "The Hand's Judgment," I would have to buy 8 copies of each chapter pack to be able to put 2 copies into all four of the decks I maintain. (Okay, I admit I wouldn't put "Condemned by the Council" into a Stark deck, but you get my point....)

These players may be a new type of customer base, for whom the CCG model had little interest but the LCG model appears to make sense. To really enjoy their deckbuilding, though, they would be well served by an expansion pack that had multiple copies of key neutral cards, including not only the new, exciting ones, but also core set cards like Bodyguard and Milk of the Poppy.

maybe coming from the CCG background i love knowing excatly where the cards i need to get are. I maintain 6-8 decks (or i will once the martell expansion comes out) and i'm always moving cards back and forth. I've never had enough cards like milk bodygaurd, or to go back to the CCG era, Put to the Question, Paper shield, Massing at twilight, etc.

In the olden days (~you know when you walked a mile in the snow to buy a loaf of bread and ice cream was only a penny) I'd buy random boosters hoping to get one common (yes common) card, things like massing at twilight were sold out at most singles retailers and e-bay (i treasured my one and only copy of that card). I was constantly shuffiling cards like Queen of thornes (which i had 4 of and traded one for a good hual even though i could have used that 4th) and Arys oakheart (both dual house so 'native' to 2-4 decks and both cost 3 gold so i could 'raven's wings' them into any house). I only had 1 copy of oakheart for the longest time and was finally able to pick one up on e-bay right before the switch to LCG for about $22.50. If I wanted a second copy of any of the cards mentioned in the CPs i could get 2 (plus 78 other cards) for $22.50 and also a a donut and a small coffee to snack on while i deck build.

I think that shuffiling cards in and out of multiple decks is a reality in any card game, i don't think LCG can change that (if hand's judgement was 3x would that stop you from shuffiling? i use or would use it in more then 3 decks, do i then complain that i need to buy 4 cps for a 3x copy card?). What LCG changes is the aviliabilty and price of the 'chase cards'. I'm exstatic that i know excatly where to go when i want some more copies of a card/cards and that i know up front the cheap cost (its $10 for at least one more copy of any given card, but then i get 39 other cards along with it).

Now the GJ expansion does change this a bit, but we've mostly come to a consensus that the problem is the resin house card at 3x (i actually like JJ's DVD release model theory. maybe have a the main expansion (including resin house card) in limited quantaties release a week or two before the 'plain' expanaions which is only cards). I'd gladly pay $30 for one copy of the expansion + resin house card and then like $15 per expansion w/out the resin house card.

Arma virumque said:

Well if you are trying to have 4 balanced decks it may be that you need other people to build a certain houses deck. We have three players and we share the cards quite well. Some of the nuetral cards are needed for lots of decks but I have never felt put out because of it. We have a good solid deck for each of the 4 houses from teh core sest and will have a solid greyjoy deck ina bit. We are competetive in that we all want to win, but we don't take it to extremes. We buy what we can and build what we can. I don't see much of a difference between this and when I was playing CCGs. I just didn't always have all the copies of a certain card that I wanted. I coudl spend a lot of money to get it or do without. I did without. Now if I want it no card is really worth more than $10. $30 if it is in kings of the sea. But I doubt that I will just need one more of a certain card I would guess some of the other cards in the pack will be useful as well. In the end I think it is a win for me. I still spent money on the game but always come away with exactly what I wanted with no need to trade or hagle. I am not a child with all the time on my hands to haggle with my friends. I am adult who likes to play with cards, but don't have the time or inclination to trade cards or spend a lot of money on one great card.