Are there any common meta-threats that this list is going to have serious trouble with in tournament play?

Soontir Fel (27)

Push the Limit (3)

Autothrusters (2)

Stealth Device (3)

Royal Guard TIE (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Darth Vader (3)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Academy Pilot (12)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Here's what I'm thinking, in terms of list archetypes:

- 2xIG88: I've found that Fel can solo one, so as long as the rest of the list can kill one of the two before it becomes 1v1, I'm okay.

- Fat turrets: I'm hoping that the 3xAP is enough to put a dent in them.

- High agility (phantoms, etc.): Vader, assuming that I can get them in arc.

What will this list be weak to?

Thanks for any feedback.

Are you dead set on this list? I have a couple of critiques, but that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

Any feedback is good. This list is a result of changes to the list I flew in my last store championship to address the weaknesses I saw in it, so I am not super tied to it.

I feel like SD on top of Autothrusters is redundant and lazy. You should be focusing on staying out of arc, not trying to tank with green dice. Engine Upgrade on a shuttle is a good idea; with Vader in the mix, it's a waste of points.

Basically, I think you have points to spare, if you have faith in your piloting skills. Those points should be used to flesh out the list's shortcomings, not yours.

Thanks for the feedback. What is your criteria for when it would stop being "lazy" and start being "prudent"? What skill differential between players do you think needs to exist so that Fel can consistently remain out of arc of dual IG88s?

I posit that Fel can't consistently arc dodge both of them the entire game, assuming equal player skill. My rough math shows that SD cuts the probability of IG88B with predator, mango, and focus landing a damage on a fully-tokened Fel in half (50%ish to 25%ish, assuming r1-2). It's not about "trying to tank;" it's about being able to survive when a skilled opponent tricks me or forces an error.

Similarly, I've had games where an engine upgraded Fat Han is consistently able to arc dodge my non-EU doomshuttle, and the number of rounds it takes to get the shuttle out of the fray, turned around, and headed back in seems prohibitive. Vader trigger exactly once that game (and only because my opponent forgot about Vader, and left an A-Wing in-arc).

I'd suggest adding shield rather than stealth to Soontir for survivability. Then drop engine on the shuttle for sabetour and anti pursuit lasers - the thought being close as slow as possible with the shuttle, and when you can't get an arc and use Vader, use your action to flip damage cards and blocking to trigger anti pursuit. Both can be fickle due to dice rolls, but may maximize the slow turning shuttle more. Otherwise, I think you will need engine to get back in the game.

If the Falcon is you concern, dropping engine on the shuttle which is doomed to die and instead switching out a Tie with Backstabber or Dark Curse would be my next suggestion. Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback. What is your criteria for when it would stop being "lazy" and start being "prudent"? What skill differential between players do you think needs to exist so that Fel can consistently remain out of arc of dual IG88s?

I posit that Fel can't consistently arc dodge both of them the entire game, assuming equal player skill. My rough math shows that SD cuts the probability of IG88B with predator, mango, and focus landing a damage on a fully-tokened Fel in half (50%ish to 25%ish, assuming r1-2). It's not about "trying to tank;" it's about being able to survive when a skilled opponent tricks me or forces an error.

That's not an easy distinction to make. Again, is needing that extra green die making up for the list's shortcomings, or your own? While that's your call to make for yourself, I'd wager that the number of lists that counter yours for lack of a single, additional die is few indeed. So, which is ultimately a better expenditure of points? Hedging your bets for when you goof, or preparing yourself for a harder counter? Personally, I stopped using SD when Hull Upgrade came out, and Feedback Array wasn't even a thing back then.

Similarly, I've had games where an engine upgraded Fat Han is consistently able to arc dodge my non-EU doomshuttle, and the number of rounds it takes to get the shuttle out of the fray, turned around, and headed back in seems prohibitive. Vader trigger exactly once that game (and only because my opponent forgot about Vader, and left an A-Wing in-arc).

Right, but how often does an up-Engined Doomshuttle manage to swing back around under similar circumstances? Not often enough, I'd warrant. That's something you have to weigh against the positive consequences of spending those points elsewhere.

SD & AT for sure

you can't trust the little green ****, so you need to put as many of them in front of the enemy and you as possible, even against 2 dice attacks

as for critique, the engine seems superfluous on a suicide ship. the shuttle is difficult to fly, but you'll get a lot more value from it at 24 points than 28

plus, those 4 points can get promote a fighter to the stabber of backs, and he's awesome

I could see EU on an OGP, but not with vader. I think SD is fine as well, just a little added insurance. No matter how good you fly an interceptor you still have to deal with turreted ships (a lot in scum, especially with HSB) and swarms that spread their arcs out at the right time.

I would also use the EU 4 points to upgrade one of those TIEs to Backstabber, still allowing you to have some blockers to set up shots for Fel/Shuttle, but then you have a second flanker that is dangerous if left ignored.

I've had a lot of success with Fel + 3 AP + X in the past. Usually the X was a TIE Defender before autothrusters came out, but I think it's a good mix of blockers/guns/flankers/power.

Another vote for replacing Stealth Device with Shield Upgrade on Fel -- that one shield provides a good defense against other Vader crew, Feedback Arrays, and non-attack damage. Then that leaves three points (from dropping EU, and assuming you want to retain the initiative bid) to boost the Shuttle or TIEs. Maybe a Tactician on the Shuttle to throw stress when you don't want to use Vader?

I don't know

I've always preferred hull over stealth device, but last night I played a game and this loadout on fel was insane

Three dice at range three vs five dice

Couldn't touch him

Then again my opponent dice was pretty hot

Even multiple range one shot 4v4 couldn't knock off stealth device

Now if it were me running it I'd have rolled five blanks while turtled up

To me it's a gamble

Having four dice at range one and two does put him up with the phantoms shenanigans

Turtle up with two focus and evade, paired up with autothrusters, if you play smart is hard to hit

Its not about making him tanky, it's trying to increase his survivability.

Phantoms are not tank

I think if your confident with your skills, and expect a lot of turrets stealth device may not be a bad investment.

If your good at staying out of turret arcs it'll do wonders imo

Against non turrets your paying three points for a gamble,

Do the green dice like you?

Not me which is why i usually opt for hull

Automatic damage tools were pretty much my first thought when it came to Interceptor counters, and Hull / Shield Upgrade are the best (and perhaps only) way to mitigate those. Assuming you're not facing down an entire swarm of Feedback Arrays you could probably manage to avoid range 1 indefinitely, but then you still might have Vader to worry about. Either way, those are things you can mitigate with list building that you can't with simply flying better. That's what I would focus on, at any rate.

those are things you can mitigate with list building that you can't with simply flying better.

It seems inconsistent to say that staying out of arc of IG88s can be done with better flying, but staying outside range 1 from feedback array Zs can't.

I do find the arguments for hull upgrade compelling, though. Being useful against the wider variety of counters is good (even if it's less useful in the gunner matchup; since IG88 can be dodged, and Fat Han triggers AT, as you say, it's probably okay). Thanks!

I was thinking more along the lines of dodging seven Feedback Arrays. That would be a tall task for any of us.

Looking at that build and what ive played similar to it, Id say that Dual IGs and any sort of Dash build will give you major problems. I say Dual IGs because thats what I mainly play and ive seen a few builds similar to yours and I ate them up. I did lose to the similar build once because I let Soontir Flank me. After that happened, I was like, never again.

Dash can handle the little guys no problem but if you can get your big boy in close to Dash early (which is easier said than done) you can shred him pretty good.

Looking at that build and what ive played similar to it, Id say that Dual IGs and any sort of Dash build will give you major problems. I say Dual IGs because thats what I mainly play and ive seen a few builds similar to yours and I ate them up. I did lose to the similar build once because I let Soontir Flank me. After that happened, I was like, never again.

Dash can handle the little guys no problem but if you can get your big boy in close to Dash early (which is easier said than done) you can shred him pretty good.

That's interesting, because I had two games at a local store champ that ended with Fel facing IG88s and pulling out the win. The lists were slightly different in that the shuttle didn't have EU, and the 3xAPs were Vessery and some upgrades, but I don't think that was relevant to either of the outcomes (V usually died pretty quickly).

Considering that they were 1-1 and 2-1 in swiss when I was paired with them, the pilots must have been at least decent with them. I haven't flown against them enough to have a strat beyond "get the match down to a 1v1 as quickly as possible so that Fel isn't in two arcs all the time."

Yeah, 1v1, Fel has an edge vs. an IG88 (but probably not both together!). Because, PS is decisive in this type of matchup. However, Fel might still have problems getting damage to stick if IG88's greens are hot, and in a timed environment, if he doesn't kill the IG before time is up....