Kirga's ability looks the strongest in the game to me so i thought i might ask u all what u think

his hero ability says " The OL cannot spawn monsters within 5 spaces of Kirga, regardless of LOS or other effects."

so my question is on dungeons 7(the graveyard) , 24(eternal prisoner) and 29(divide and conquer) which has more power in this game a hero ability or an OL card?

in level 7, 24 and 29 the OL may spawn monsters in places that may ingnore the normal rules for LOS with spawning

Ubbo_Sathla said:

1) Kirga is a she...and yes, I am not joking.

2) That I'm not sure of, but I want to say her ability trumps it all.

I would say the dungeon trumps. If the Overlord may spawn figures that ignore the normal rules for line of sight and spawning, then I think that they could ignore Kirga's ability as well.

Kirga is not a normal rule to spawning however and states "regardless of LOS or " other effects "

simply what im curroius about is whenever a problem like this occurs who has the final trump... the OL card or the Hero card.

my guess is the hero.

Ubbo_Sathla said:

It is pretty clear IMO that the 'other effects' part of Kirga's special trumps everything.

I don't think it is possible to establish an absolute hierarchy of effects but do consider there to be an informal hierarchy. In general, the more precise/specific/rare the effect the 'higher ranked' it should be IMO.
So a card played that has a global effect probably gets trumped by a local effect. And a local effect probably gets trumped by a unique effect.

I don't think I have any more reason for this than common sense plus the general experience of how things seem to work best when something like this comes up and we talk it out. Oh, and most of the results that come back from FFG when questions do get asked (eg Boggs and Gust of Wind).

In general, this often means that hero abilities, being unique, usually trump other effects which are 'wider'. However the times when two effects clash such that they cannot both resolve are very rare.

The question is, do the mentioned dungeon cards say something like "spawning"? Or do they say "place the monster on the board" or something like that. In the latter case I think Kirga´s ability wouldn´t prevent it.

Parathion said:

Good catch.

I'm pretty sure the Razorwings 'summoned' by the demon are not 'spawned' and there is no indication that normal spawning rules should affect them. Thus Kirga would have no effect.

I'm also pretty sure that the skeletons that support Adrian ignore normal 'spawning restrictions', which in my mind indicates that whatever term is used they are in fact spawning - or would be affected by spawning restrictions without the explicit exception. In this case I would say Kirga's ability trumps theirs, even if they are not described as 'spawning'.
It sounds messy but... They would be affected by spawning restrictions, except they are not (by special effect of the dungeon), however Kirga's special ability specifically overrides 'other effects' related to spawning restrictions. So the cancellation (other effect) is cancelled (by the last part of Kirga's special) and the skeletons are restricted by Kirga in the same way that spawns are.

Not sure about the other dungeon.

There's a general rule among all games (board, card etc) that a specific rule will trump a general rule. The dungeon rules will trump the rulebook, but I would say Kirga is even more specific than the dungeon, so her ability will trump dungeon rules.

The other point that has been raised is whether or not the monsters are actually "spawning." That's a valid point to make. Without having access to the rules myself, I'd say that if the dungeon says "the OL may spawn monsters even in LoS" or something like that, then Kirga's ability will still prevent spawning. If, however, it says something like "the OL may summon monsters to any location, even in LoS of the heroes" then that dungeon is actually defining a new game term ("summoning") which is not the same as spawning and thus is not prevented by Kirga's ability.

Edit: And also, +1 for Kirga beign a girl. I'm pretty sure she's wearing lipstick.

Dungeon #7: "The encounter markers represent gravestones. The Overlord may spaw n on one of them each turn for free, ignoring line of sight, as long as Adrian is still alive.

Dungeon #24: "While he lives, the Overlord may place a new Razorwing adjacent to him at the start of each of the Overlord's turns

Dungeon #29: "If there are fewer than four normal Skeletons on the board at the start of the Overlord's turn, the Overlord may place one new normal Skeleton adjacent to Legion, ignoring the normal restrictions for spawning."

Those are the three in questions.

A few things to consider for this discussion:

1) Only Level #7 actually uses "spawn" and would be subject to Kirga's ability

2) #24 and #29 use "place" instead of spawn. Also, they both occur at the start of the OL's turn so even before the Spawning step. So in those ones, Kirga's ability might not work.

3) I was thinking about this last night, and there is another thing to consider. Level 10: The Ancient Library with the Mad Sage. The Mad Sage always comes back, regardless of LOS or where the heroes even are since he pushes any hero off his starting square if he is there.

I'm not entirely sure of the right answer, I will admit. This might be a FAQ question in the future.

Big Remy said:

I agree with everything Remy wrote, except would like to reiterate my comment here.
One of those (the one with Adrian, which 'places' a skeleton on one of the ? tiles each turn), specifically says that the placement ignores effects that prevent spawning. To me, that pretty clearly indicates that without that specification, effects that prevent spawning would prevent that particular placement. And since Kirga's special overrides the 'ignoring of prevention' prevention goes ahead and thus the skeleton may not be placed within 5 spaces of Kirga.
For me, that one is pretty clear cut, I think.

It has implications for the other 'placement' actions that don't specify any relationship with spawning, but they are far less clear cut.

Power cards are also played at the start of the OL's turn , yet are specifically played any time before step 3 activate monsters (and after discarding excess cards).
Further, discarding excess cards must be done before playing any Power Cards (start of OLs turn), Dark Charm (start of OL's turn) or Events that trigger on 'start of OLs turn'.
I therefore believe that the game term 'start of OL's turn' refers, somewhat contradictorily, to everything after step 1 has been completed and before step 3 is begun. Which includes spawning, and the placement of dungeon specific 'arrivals'. Which makes the point in bold above irrelevant, sorry.

Corbon said:

Where do you get the indication that the ´ignoring of prevention´ prevention by Kirga goes ahead from?

Having faced Kirga in Quest 4, AoD, last night, I think her ability should really relate only to spawn cards. The quest guide specifically says "spawn one Troll, regardless of LoS, even in the middle of a hero´s turn". Kirga almost completely ruined that effect, which is one of the kickers in that quest (ok, I had my fun with them in their first two failed attempts on this quest).

By allowing to trump the RtL dungeon effects by Kirga´s ability would destroy one of the kickers in that levels as well - this cannot be intentional, at least I hope it can´t.

Parathion said:

From Kirga's ability which states that her spawn prevention works 'regardless of line of sight or other effects '.

The dungeon special is an 'other effect' which Kirga's special specifically overrides.

When we have two overides clashing, only one can take precedent. SInce Kirga's is more specific and more unique, I assume that it 'wins' the contest, so to speak.

While I have sympathy for the situation, I have none for the argument. Sometimes the heroes just have a good draw or a good skill. Another example is the very difficult quest with the fancy ranged sword item. If the heroes draw a 8 wound hero to hold the sword and Sharl Brightwing to completely nullify it's negative effects the most difficult quest in the original book becomes a cakewalk. In the AoD quest 4 example it shouldn't even make that much difference since the 'spawn' can interrupt the heroes turn at any time, so at some stage at least Kirga must be separated from the others enough to work a troll spawn. Kirga's 'nullification' merely means that the spawned Troll is unlikely to get a TPK.

Corbon said:

Err, the wording 'regardless of line of sight or other effects' strongly indicates that "other effects" in this context are not meant to be dungeon specific spawning allowances or the like. It is merely a generalisation of spawn preventing effects like LoS.

Line of sight is one effect that prevents spawning - which is not necessary for Kirga, so she prevents spawning without it.

I just wonder what "other effects that prevent spawning" could mean in that context - quest specific ones, effects from future expansions? Spawning beyond staircases (for which the distance is not defined with respect to Kirga´s ability), yet this would already be covered partly by LoS issues, as all other spawn preventing effects like obstacles, doors and the like would be?

Even if "other effects" were actually referring to dungeon specials (which I heavily doubt because of the actual wording), it is an arbitrary decision to let Kirga override the dungeon special.

I have to agree, I don't think Kirga's ability should trump the dungeon's inate ability to spawn. Rules lawyering and wording aside, the few dungeons in question with this ability pretty much rely on it for their uniqueness. Without it, there's no point in the dungeon, it's just stupid.

Parathion said:

I do not think it is arbitrary at all.
1. As someone else pointed out, it is a standard rule-of thumb for boardgames (indeed, all games) of all types that where rules clash the specific rule always trumps the general rule. An example of this is Jaes. The general rule is that Heroes wearing Chainmail cannot use Runes. Jaes' specific rule is that Jaes may use Runes even when not normally allowed. The specific rule trumps the general rule. A hero ability is unique and about as specific as you can get - it applies only to that figure.
2. Part of Kirga's ability is the fact that it specifically overides other effects.
3. I don't see the other (dungeon specific) effects saying they overide Kirga's (or 'any' or 'all') effect.
- I checked the AoD dungeon. The text says you may "...spawn a troll..., ignoring the heroes' LOS." That is it. Ignoring LOS. Anything that limits spawning that is not LOS (or timing, which is also covered later in the text) is not ignored by this quest specific rule. That would, I imagine, include other figures being on the spawn site. And most definitely includes Kirga's special even if it did not automatically overide other effects!

As I already mentioned, sometimes the heroes get a break. They get a good skill, a good hero, a great combo, just the right item, whatever they need that reduces the special effects from a dungeon level or quest. Or a great combo that screws the OL on any dungeon. Them's the breaks.
You don't say "Sharl Brightwing can't heal a hero carrying Soulbiter because that makes the quest stupid and easy".
Or, "Zyla with Telekinesis, Tiger Tattoo and Cautious is illegal because she ruins all dungeons"
Or "Sahla can't use Curse items because it's too cheesy".
- Well, actually, if you want to do those things, or reduce Kirga's special, you can. It just becomes a house rule. It goes in the same bag as the house rule that says if the OL gets Evil Genius in his first 5-7 cards the game is over and he has won already.

Alright, Corbon, if you want to continue at this level, fine.

1. Other boardgames, in general, even all games? BS, we are talking about a specific game called Descent. Nobody cares what is done in other games with respect to what should happen in Descent. I thought we were well past that after some mechanic from Doom (which is even closely related to Descent) was tried to be used to clarify a question in Descent.

2. Placing a monster according to a specific dungeon or quest rule is not an "effect", it is a special rule, thus it can not be countered by Kirga, who counters "effects", not rules. If it would be an effect, it still would be arbitrary which one had priority.

3. You would expect that the special dungeon rules explicitly mention Kirga, based on your experience with the muddy wording in almost every instance of Descent rulings? Now that I would call stubborn or at least immune towards personal experience.

I guess the question is already on the list for the new FAQ, so no need for further fights here.