I've played this game ever since it's inception in early 2006. When I look back on the early days of the game, lots of broken stuff went along using cards that couldn't really be combated due to the small size of the game. Do you think some cards on this list should come off the ban list? They're only playable in legacy and when I think about it, there is more broken stuff in legacy then there is on the ban list. There are also more counters to cards that didn't have counters back in the day.

However, if you think there should be a separate ban list for legacy, then pay no attention to this

This guy was originally played with a Void control base, utilizing Leaping Commando Kick into Reverse Waterfall for his win condition. There was a weaker version during the first set that purposely milled itself down to the last couple cards in the deck, then looping Strong Punch with Devotion. His ability basically says "F: Search your deck for any card and play it." I'm sure there's other stuff he can do now, and the ability is still broken, but I dunno. Maybe keep him on. I need more knowledge on him.

This card doesn't even work because you can't play the ability when the card is committed. Therefore, once it's committed it is no longer a problem. I mean sure, you can ready it with other cards, but there is asset destruction now, unlike back in set 1. I guess it's still broken, but whatever.

This card was the enabler for some massive combos. I believe the main reason for banning this card was because of UR Raphael in set 2 playing a bunch of 3DF poke attacks. There was other cute stuff as well, like the first Promo Vega. I just see this as a balls to the walls card. I can see some great stuff with this card in legacy. However, this card is worded weirdly. It's not static and what happens if it leaves the card pool? Cause Ukyo would be massive with this and Kunai haha

To this day I have still no idea why this card is still banned. They already banned the first enabler, Double Dealing, which should stay banned, and errata'd the second enabler, Manji Ninjitsu.

Banned immediately upon it's release due to the mill combo with Erode the Human Soul. It's not only the enabler for Erode, but you can do some wicked stuff too with Devil Reverse. Besides, any player can look at that card and realize how broken it is.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaa keep her banned

Banned because it was the enabler for the unlimited draw/discard/ready/commit/mill tech with Whimsy and Rekki-Maru & Mekki Maru. A majority of players back then shared the same opinion as mine on it before it got banned: "If you can pull the combo off, all power to you." It would be harder to pull off in today's legacy. There was another combo with any Ryu, Persistence and another card that allowed you to ready any card when you gained life, going back to full life every turn.

I really had no problems with this guy and Emptiness. I remember Sean Toysa first made it famous on the west coast, winning two consecutive FOPs with it and a couple other tournaments, but then dropped UFS to concentrate on the MTG Pro Tour. I remember it was a highly ranked control deck as he would reduce his opponent's handsize to 2 with Emptiness combined with his ability, then he would regain any damage dealt to him with his life gain. It was NPE for many players, but then again Emptiness IMO was the real killer. Dhalsim could have easily been taken care of if he didn't have Emptiness. If anything, I'd say unban this guy and ban Emptiness. There's very little difference between Emptiness Dhalsim and Emptiness Tycho.

I remember Auckland fronted this with their Hanzo with all of the throws, which was at that time widely considered the best aggro deck. Then Chain Throw was released, forcing it's ban. Keep it banned.

This card was never played in a major tournament because Erik Yaple banned it before any major tournament's date due to a large number of people complaining about it on the forums. However, I remember a majority of high-ranked players said that Noble Scion will win you 1 out of 4 games or something like that. I took their word because I was a scrub back then, and looking at it now, I agree with that statement.

Banned due to it's highly unbalanced ability. Intending to be a silver bullet to anti-discard, it ended up turning into one of the best offensive cards when combined with Dark Hado (SF04). Keep this one banned.

Banned because it discouraged blocking. Although the most common deck that used this was Matt Kohls Fireball with Glass Slippers, two of this card after a huge one-shot attack spelled game. Keep it banned.

I guess that's it. The other stuff like Kasumi Gaki, Hugo, Kubi Ori, Ruler of Southtown, and newer bannings dating back to Addes I won't even go into.

I don't think I'm going crazy, and I'm not drunk or high, so I think I am at my norm when posting this.

Dan I'm such a UFS baby compared to most of you guys.. I've seen like 3 cards on that list!

Shaneth,

I do think that there should be a seperate banned list for Legacy. (I think that's my pet project for the Winter - Harass the powers that be, until they finally relent and give us a seperate banned list.) However, I also think this is a great discussion segment for part of what that banned list should look like.

I agree with most of your sentiments, and only have the following to add:

Enlightenment - I think as it's worded would be fine to unban for legacy. It just wouldn't get functional errata. <humor> Besides something has to be done to slow down Scott Gains Ukyo of Doom </humor>

Turbo - Would need functional errata / omni-faq clarification on how it works.

Errode - There is another combo with it, that I am unable to recall exactly what it is. Additionally it's got that whole mill thing, that the powers that be currently have a hate on for.

.:Dhalsim:. - I think this one requires some conversation... I know Emptiness is something that people would like to see find its way onto the banned list. I also remember there being other reasons for him getting put onto the banned list, and I'm not sure if I remember them well enough to verbalize them at this time.

Nobel Scion - For standard, this card should be unbanned. I've played against the Promo Ryu deck that caused this card to be banned, and it's long and boring as can be. Simply based on the NPE that it generates, and how much it slows down the tournament environment is why it should stay on the banned list for legacy.

Honestly i was glad when all of these cards where banned, although i never really got Strength of Purpose. They were all detrimental at the time and honestly they would still be power cards in todays meta to the point that they would still prolly be banned.

The Characters were all detrimental in the fact that they essentially played solitare once they got set up.

I had played Toysa's deck many times. In fact i lost to him at one of those FoP. That deck was a pain.... His abilities plus Emptiness with Voids control (Ring Vet, Yoga, Lost Memories) and then add Back Flip it was dumb. You literally would have to draw and hardcheck 3-4 attacks to beat him. Any character with 6 or less handsize couldnt do it so he had to go.

IMO none of those cards need to come back, they are still too good.

I'll say what I've already said...

Chain Throw needs to be banned under every circumstance. That card shouldn't have been allowed to wreck our game for as long as it did.

To the Bone can stay banned; way too easy to generate momentum/allow attack strings, ESPECIALLY in legacy where Air and Earth have more than enough throws.

*Adon* needs to be unerrata'd. He will always be amazing unerrata'd, but at his current state, Ibis Minuet erodes his existence.

Zasalamel - F: Get any card out of your deck is still way too good. Yeah, there are more cards to stop it now, but even back then there was a rock solid answer to him (Overwhelming Strength).

Dhalsim - It's the combination of both his abilities that got him onto the list, not just the card denial, but either way with just his R: which is in effect from the first turn he's ready until the game ends, he's slowing his opponent down with little negative effect to himself. If he was a printed 7 hand size, his response would already be enormously less abusive... but the fact that you practically have to OTK him with the reduced card draw is what really settles it.

Enlightenment - Without errata to let it ready itself, it MIGHT be okay to leave it on the list because of the increased asset destruction in the game, but that's still really iffy considering it does still have a built-in way to ready itself - just play a new one. But, then, at the same time - it checks a 1. Would have to be tested to be sure. Annoyingly, Ukyo could still escape from it and just draw a new hand... but it would slow him down some.

Erode - Even though its enablers got beat down, it was still banned because it proved so easy to break, and because its purpose goes against the philosophy of the game.

Turbo - Has been replaced with more balanced versions of the same concept. The stays-in-card-pool thing is really odd, but in theory shouldn't have any bearing on its effect duration. Based mainly on its interaction with the already crazy Ukyo, though, I'd say keep it out.

Strength of Purpose - Also leads to a loop with Mission of Peace + Material Advantage. There's too much potential abuse with 2-for-1 effect.

TTB/Scion/Defender/Lunge/Dealing/the rest - Well, yeah. Obviously broken.

edit: Shinji, un-errataing Adon is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen you say, lol. Especially in the same breath as saying TTB should stay banned. God.

Separate legacy banlist, imo.

Tagrineth said:

No. The dumbest thing I've said is when I tell people "I go to work at 3 PM". Well, obviously it'd be at PM; we're closed in the AM

Adon shouldn't have ever been errata'd; he would've seen plenty of play otherwise

Chain Throw.

Or, barring that, other throws -> Tsunami Sabre -> KFT.

Yeah, and Chain Throw needs to be banned.

Dhalsim was pretty beastly, but I completely agree that Emptiness did most of the work. It was the perfect enabler for what he wanted to do, cut off every avenue your opponant had. You both want to out-build each other, but unlike Dhalsim's R emptiness punishes your opponant before it punishes you. Kinda gg when you build on the play, they build, then you untap R with Dhalsim and drop 2 emptiness. 7now4wut? lol. Deny them their hand to slow their build. When they go on the offensive they cant play foundations after they attack or you will gain all the life back, which means it takes them longer to dig into attacks. When you switch to kill mode, they are probably going to have to block a roundhouse or tiamats with a foundations and bam your life is back. He created lose-lose senarios.....like the old guy from Saw.

Here's an odd request, and i make it during a time when the Meta seems to be shifting back in favor of rewarding players for playing Aggresively:

Please unerrata Matt Kohls!

Seriously, i look at how viscious he was when he was first released; i coined the term Hyper Aggro for his Fireball deck. However, as the Meta has shifted, i just don't see the need to keep the errata. Imho, the designers (with Matt's blessing, so i know i'm kinda pointing out a sacred cow of sorts) went overboard and beat this wonderfully wonderfully made Aggro style character six ways to Sunday with the Nerf bat.

However, we now have a lot of anti-draw tech, as well as anti-Character tech that i do not believe that the unerrata'd version would be as nearly Godzilla like.

Just my 2 cents...

Love the post, Shaneth. Good history lesson. I was always curious about Turbo, because as you said, the wording is akward. I kind of get it...as can be seen from my signature though, I don't agree with many of the bannings. However, I think everyone can agree that the most banworthy card ever is DotE. Actually, I'm sure the next person to post will disagree, lol.

I disagree

Bloodrunstrue said:

Predictable...but still humorous.

i think both enlightenment and zaslemel can be unbanned.

RockStar said:

"Did you draw a tag along? No? GG"

Awesome environment

Tagrineth said:

Really...do we have any self clearing attacks a la IFB in Standard? No.

Do we have anti draw tech: MAC, TOS...Yes.

What else do we have now that we didn't back when Fireball Kohls was dominating...uhm...copious amounts of damage redux AND Life Gain.

Todays Meta also encourages playing 3 different kinds of attacks for Combo, not just one attack that can be looped over and over again, a la Hanzo Kick (most recently), and IFB (classic stylez).

Can Matt Kohls pick up certain attacks better than others? Sure, if said attack has a block. Not every Combo piece does. 3rd Rite doesn't, and neither does 'Launcher...

Being able to pick up 2 combo pieces in one turn (Dragon's Flame and K. Breaker, two of the best do) is fine enough. Matt is still a very viable charactere.

RockStar said:

Battle Disc System and Idyllic Kamui Kotan say hi

Pycho focus should be looked at or at least errated to while in card pool

Kunai is another possibility because of it's infinite ways to create broken combos

Lord of the makai should not be banned

Fei long kick could probably be unbanned as long as bitter rivals is gone

Possibly promo Yun Seong to be banned he is almost too good when you can build him 18 different ways and still be broke lol...

Also I really don't think you're really thinking it through too well when you would want Matt Kohls Fireball back sure I loved the deck and it was awesome but I don't think it's a great idea unless of course they make a special ability on their team asset with an ability like :-p

If your character is Matt Kohls your character is unerrated

Grizzlegrom said:

This is the most amazing idea ever. They must do it

@ shaneth: I enjoyed reading about the bans, I believe you should continue on through more bans. Mabye even break it up into to topics.

Tagrineth said:

Sadly, those were really the only two dmg redux cards played.

My opinion will stay just that: an opinion.

@ Shaneth, cool topic mang. DotE and Pen Lunge should definitely stay banned; esp Pen Lunge. I've lost too many games because someone played 2 of those back to back after i successfully block Final D. No fun at all.

Bloodrunstrue said:

Wait, were we hit with a drive-by argument? I like the list Shane, as far as legacy goes, no one here really plays it, because no one wants to. Most of us play standard because that is the format for Worlds. Legacy does have it's charm, and for a format that they say is unbalanced and they plan to keep it that way, I am surprised Legacy even has a banned list anymore.

tannerface said: