Shaneth said:

100% Correct, Matt's Kyo is the reason I knew I didn't stand a chance against Mill...

Immortal-JyNxX said:

Matt even told me that he doesn't see himself losing a single match. The only deck he said he may have trouble against was Zi Mei fronting Fury of the Ancients because it's so fast, but if she didn't kill him turn 2 then he had game fo sho. Good just has so much defense, especially if you're Kyo.

Grats on the win Shaneth, and grats to defensive playstyle? It lives and breaths in that New York meta ^^

What is most surprising to me is the number of 6hs characters (or less) that are doing well in this defensive meta. I'm guessing what helps the most is you guys are all very experienced, and know when and what to mulligan for in certain matchups.

Personally I think mill is alive and well, but I don't think for a second it is better than a well tuned Akuma or a deck with 7hs that can drop damage and control early...

There are a few cards that counter mill quite well, and life gain for that matter, so I don't think (as strong as it is) it is a problem. What will be a problem is that a lot of players aren't aware of this playstyle and don't build answers to mill into their decks.

Also, a sideboard is very rarely used against mill granted it can take some players a while tor ealize they are in between a rock and a hard place, scoop, and try for a win in the second game.

Finally, the reason mill is winning is becuase (as Matt stated) decks that are 'offensive' or that kill with damage are still using 4-8 attacks... Which is very easy for mill to handle except in cases with insane recursion.

START USING 20-25% OF YOUR DECKS AS ATTACKS PEOPLE.

Good archtype, good to see good up there (for the record, I also just built and won a local with good/air Raphael). The nice thing about the good symbol is what is also nice about Hilde, namely it's offense can quickly become it's defense, and it forces the opponent to make a mistake or over-extend to kill. Mind you, if the opposition isn't trying to kill...

Grats again on the Bishamon win! Can't wait to see Team Tapout with all of their cool duds and strong play at Worlds. And thank you for the detailed report, it does not go unnapreciated.

- dut

I want to try the Earth Bishamon, it's not a netdeck when I haven't seen a list right? From Omar to Goo to Shaneth to me, it's like oofs telephone lol

I'm mad now, half my playgroup is quitting until Tekken, including one guy who played Good mill himself... if it's the best deck in the game, I def. want to see if I can beat it!

Wafflecopter said:

I want to try the Earth Bishamon, it's not a netdeck when I haven't seen a list right? From Omar to Goo to Shaneth to me, it's like oofs telephone lol

Heh, don't worry about netdecking. IMO netdecking is a very good thing. You bring the deck off the internet to play with your local group. If you totally stomp face with it, then your group must not be good enough to deal with the championship quality of pro decks. If you can't beat the netdecks, then how do you expect to win at championship caliber? Bringing outside information into your own secret base is always a great thing to do.
Players who complain about your netdeck "You have no originality!" or "You netdecker!" just can't face the fact that they aren't good enough to compete at the high levels. The players who tweak their decks to beat the netdecks take one of the biggest steps further into becoming a pro.

Sometime back in the day about 4 weeks after I first started, I netdecked TemplarPsi's Phoenix Championship Zasalamel Deck fronting Leaping Commando Kick and Reverse Waterfall, I got mad **** for it because I raped everybody with a deck I copied off the internet. I told them that if I wouldn't have done this, we would still all be scrubs and we would always lose to the top decks out there, and never win or even top at a major event. They came back with decks the following week attempting to counter my Zasalamel. When Zasalamel got banned, all of our decks were so consistent anyways because we were leveling up with Zasalamel, leading into quality decks, leading to a stronger playgroup very quickly. In like, two weeks we went from total scrubs to having a vast knowledge of gameplay.

wow that was a rant... excuse that

Anyways, Goo's Bishamon from the King's Games regional is where I got the idea of Bishamon Mill. Although his deck wasn't complete and I 2-0'd it, I was completely blown away by how effective it could become. I built a Bishamon from scratch, adding in tons of Earth foundations, keeping in mind Goo's playstyle. So if anything, I was net-playstyling. Well wait, it wasn't on the internet, but you get what I mean.

Pardon the arrogance, but if I just ran a certain card that got past me during building, I could have had a shot against a Kyo. Not sure if it would have ultimately made a difference - things happen after all, but would have taken me from 10% to a 60-75% shot at victory I think.

I can say he didn't mill me though. Game 1 I scooped, game 2 I milled myself .

Shaneth said:

Wow, NOW I understand why people always get so mad when I post anything; my posts sound almost exactly like this one, and this post makes me EXTREMELY angry.

I still remember when you won with Hanzo Kick, and then proceeded to front Hanzo Kick at every subsequent event, and didn't do so well. Believe me, just because you win first doesn't mean your deck is necessarily the best, or even top tier. Bad checks, bad draws, lucky match-ups, etc, can always be contributing factors. Although my Bitter Rivals **Mai**, a deck I repeatedly tout as unbeatable and might've done me well at worlds, is a decktype few were prepared for when I destroyed my card shop with it, I've certainly had some tough times against people (opposing BR, Harrier Bee *Hsien-Ko*), and might have lost (and had I kept the deck built, I'm sure it would have lost eventually).

Believe me dude, Good is my favorite symbol, and where there is blatant fanboyism, there is heavy knowledge. Kind of like how JRay might be the best guy to go to for Seong Mi-Na, or Eithinis for Void Akuma, I consider myself an afficianado of Good and try to speak on its behalf. As such, I can say a few things:

Good Kyo is a beast, there's simply no denying that. However, all this talk about "Good Mill" and "Good Kyo Mill" is all a bunch of rubbish (pardon my British, I'm an American y'know). The only reason people are using Kyo in conjunction with Mill is so that you can't touch his stuff while it amasses so that the combo goes off otherwise without a hitch. ANY character with good can uber build foundations, then use the Deadly Ground - Flashy Leg Work combo to add your decks to your hand, and with Olcadan's gone, you don't need to worry about your opponent ridding you of your Deadly Grounds.

I wouldn't call Good a "mill" symbol, rather, it has access to a mill-esque card.

As for Kyo being the best Good character...

and easy to understand misconception. Again, there's no denying that his conjunction with Red Lotus is simply unheard of. All the guy needs is one copy, and some cards in his hand/momentum, and you just can't touch him (even Souljah Boy is like, 'Nope, can be doin' like Kyo'). However, apart from LAWLNOTOUCHSTAGINGAREALAWL, there's nothing else to say about him. 6/28 is almost a standard, and Good doesn't exactly have the best draw around.

Much like guita has said, Good has so much more potential than just Deadly Leg Work. It has Felicia and her Spike, for one. It has Fight or Flight (double the damage at no cost? Uh, I guess), Savage Fighter (attack strings), Darkness Blade (tapdown), Shadow Blade (best utility attack in the game), Ichi no Tachi...OK, I could go on and on.

The problem with deckbuilding and large-scale tournaments is that they simply do not go hand-in-hand. When it comes to large scale tournies, people make the fool's mistake of building what they THINK will win, and not what they would WANT to win.

Maybe I'm stupid, but generally, what wins is what you're comfortable with. Makes sense non? When there is comfort, there's a better understanding of how your deck works.

Good has always had a bad reputation, and thankfully, it's at a place where it can compete. Red Lotus + Torn Hero alone is ultimate board denial. Spiritual Center and Holding Ground absolutely neuter big damage decks. White Magic and Nine Lives are easily the cheapest momentum generation that exists.

Either way, I'd say hold your horses and slow down there champ. I'm always happy to see you win, because I've always felt you deserved to win every since your Yun-Seong got 3rd at Worlds. But really, let's not let victory get to our heads too much now.

Mill is good, and I'm happy to hear Earth and Good in tops, but I wouldn't go and said "Earth is like uber competitive". Bishamon is in his own tier. Keep that in mind.

Yo Osei I have to ask dun: can I make your Sagat deck with the one card that YOU SHOULD HAD PUT IN ?

Chubbs played the GAY VAMPIRE! That's awesome!

Shaneth said:

Even i have to agree wit MarcoPulleaux, my bro shane, bc even know mill is mad good i dont think its the best. The best kill condition now is huge attack wit a lot of speed or Aggro or even loop decks. Like everyone in NY said Zi Mei is very good bc 2nd turn 20+ damage and other decks like Raphel and so on.

Immortal-JyNxX said:

O'Yeah Osi Knows when 10min left in round double Darkness Blade for 20 20 on 2nd and third turn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD IS AMAZING and If it wasnt for 1st blood Osi u know anyway r match was mad good and prob one of the best i ever played.

Scubadude said:

U know what the funny thing is it was still an Asian who took ECC!!!!!!!!!!!!!

guitalex2008 said:

I strongly disagree, bc J. Talbain wasnt mill and My Raphel Good wasnt mill its a very strong symbol now bc it can throw D-Blade 2nd to 3rd turn wit FOF for 20D!

MarcoPulleaux said:

I have no idea where you're getting this from. I didn't let the victory get to my head at all, sir. I never went around bragging about how I won. I don't think of myself any more of a player than I was before. I'm just expressing my thoughts based on what the competitive New York meta showed. I never said Earth was the best symbol because the top two decks were off Earth.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, sir.

CHUBBS91 said:

CHUBBS91 said:

CHUBBS91 said:

Shaneth said:

You and me both broseph. You had this jap fooled.

I had a hell of a time at ECC again this year. Always crazyness going on especially when you got Shane and Chubbs in the backseat lol.

Anyways just a few thoughts on the whole thing...

1. Mysterious Stance - this card is so **** rediculous. I hate it and love it at the same time. 1 momentum and a careful turn sideways and boom your attack is done.

2. Good is GOOD. The pun has been said a billion times before, but it's so **** true. Matt's Kyo deck was **** near unbeatable after about turn 3. You just couldn't put the damage on him it was nuts. Both games I got him down to 10 or 9 health at turn 3 and then I just hit a wall. Mad props for the deck tho, and I had a great time playing it...even tho I screwed up so much at the end.

3. When it comes down to it, in top cuts....Chubbs is going to take his clothes off lol.

4. Mill is the best kill condition right now. I have to agree with Shane. Especially with Bishamon. Who cares about the 5 handsize? Honestly...who cares? He has 32 vitality...so with the rest of the decks (and very few ran more than 8 attacks) they would have to draw perfectly to stand a chance of killing him before his base is set. Chubbs and Pasta B had the best chance honestly...being able to throw 20 damage attacks for nothing early is awesome...but it is still only chance. If you dont kill him early you're done. Lets face it...there is WAY too much defense out there for you to overcome. Like Osei said Criminial Past/Battle Prowess...that combo is so retardedly good its unbelieveable. Even if you dont get that there is a million other options out there for your opponent to do little or nothing to you. On top of that the whole time he is putting your deck in your discard pile and chances are you lose a few peices you need to kill with. Believe me...I don't like mill. I never liked the idea because there is so little in the game to counter act it. Even if you use tag along/divination combo every turn you still are "milling" 2 cards every turn on top of what else you play. No matter what you do you are helping him. It's rediculous honestly...

5. It was a blast to play more that 4-6 attacks again. I ran 12 in my Yang deck and most games started throwing attacks turn 2 turn3. God it was a blast to do that again and to do it with alot of sucess.

All in all it was a great time. The New York guys are an absolute blast, and I would recomend anyone that can afford to travel do it!! I'm definatly looking forward to seeing everyone again, and hopefully I'll be able to make it to worlds this year.

I never even thought Shane was asian he always looked more italian and more like a dude in a rock band then anything else.

Scubadude said:

Worlds 2007 - Top 4 - 3 of the top 4 were Asian, and the American Olexa won

Shhhh, stop talking about Raphael chubbs >.

I also think good is the best symbol in the game at the moment, and mill is definitely up there as a top kill condition.

ok this is enough with you people ranting about good is not good at all if you don't see what's in front of you, you just won't understand. i did'nt bother to come to ecc is because i had to worry about playing two of my decks which would''nt be fun because i had to built to counter both and like always i never have a deck ready to play. I like to thank shane for proving my point that people are not paying attention to this game especially when it comes to certain characters who just have a huge advantage after the new banning. if i had it my way i believe 10 more cards would be banned just to have people attacking again.

the attacks in this game are too costly and it just makes it lame to even attack. but when it come to worlds i have a new deck out character in mind just in case they decide to ban bishimon. but when it comes to worlds I AM PLAYING BISHIMON!!!!

Goo said:

and if you don't?

nice report shane.

good is very solid but i don't think it's the best. i mean yes it has alot of nasty styff, but death is a effing monster atm. i think good and death are the two tops for sure.

mill these dudes goo.