... should of...

Right, so anyway. I think I'd take that as a challenge if I were a game developer. Can FFG make a viable, single red die ship? I believe they could.

And they did.

Besides the HWK, whose contribution until now at the competitive level has been negligible. It probably still is.

Besides the HWK, whose contribution until now at the competitive level has been negligible. It probably still is.

Is it a gatekeeper, no. But a few made the cut at Worlds. That is plenty viable for me.

As someone who has been running the HWK in multiple tournament builds, I'll have to disagree with you on that point. I think, thanks in large part to the Scum pilots, we'll likely see more HWKs on tables at the competitive level. At the very least, I'll be running more of them, though I am but a single data point.

I certainly don't hope that the HWK fails, but it's viability is still fairly limited. To amend my first comment, I would like to see FFG brainstorm a viable, non-support, single red die ship.

HWK with 1 atk dice is not a problem if it is loaded with support.

If you feel a ship you fielded is paying back is debpt, you will field it, you won't care the way he paid it.

The point with the hwk is not the 1 atk, it is that it wont be paying his debt, never.

Jabba had the same trouble with Solo, and, well, you know the story...

As for the 2 atk ships, I do think the meta is not shining for them right now. But! I do have confidence that FFG will reajust.

Otherwise, i dont understand why they developped ship like tycho, that **** tycho i always want to field, or jake, and make them so... unworthy.

I'll finish on that note...

X-Wing go in wave, back and forth...

I like to think that Developpers do there best, but they have to bring money...

Maybe what people like is 3 atk ship.

By the way, to much beer,

2 Attack being ok died the second FF decided that everything TIE should be rocking 3 dice on the defense. (Tie phantom has ACD so I don't really consider it being its 2 defense, never see them cloakless)

It works on ships like the A-wing because it can reliably get to range 1 to be rolling 3 dice, but flying a Y-wing without turrets and trying to rely on 2 dice? worthless ship is worthless.

To bad they didn't work off 2 being the norm for ships and 3 being high end instead of 3 being the norm and 2 being below average..Defense and attack

I think the 2 Attack dice ships are needed in the game (except tie advanced) and will never be classified as useless. All 2 Attack dies ships are inexpensive unless they have some awesome ability or upgrades available to them. Some of the names pilots have the best abilities. A-wings, guy that can perform actions when stressed or can shoot you when he is bumping you. Tie fighters, well most of them are good. I don't play z-95s but the guy that always hits is awesome with ion missiles. Tie bomber (not mentioned so far in this thread) can change the range of a secondary weapon, or let you reroll some dice with a secondary weapon (I have a special list that he is awesome in). Y wings, sure there pilot abilities are kinda bla but they can take ion turrets!

Sure with these defense upgrades it is getting harder for 2 Attack dice to hit but, those upgrades are expensive. And from what I have seen the game is still holding its points balancing very well.

As a side note, I love playing Darth Vader in the tie advanced. It is my favorite ship since I was a kid and the 2 attack dice does kinda suck but I still win with him. It will be even better when the raider comes out.

the only ship that is absolutely invincible to 2 dice attacks seems to be the aggressor

******* thing never dies, no matter how many range 1 Z-95s I bring against it, but suddenly I bust out my Defenders and they go own like chumps like that extra red die is their ******* kryptonite

honestly have no explanation other than horrible luck (taken to calling that opponent "magic" because he keeps rolling unmodified bull, like a stress and Wesed HLC dash with Jan Ors that then goes on to one-shot the X-wing...guess how), because Palob was there to ensure that the Zs could hit through those dice

anyway, they seem fine. They did great work against everything from decimators to fire sprays to tie fighters, and even managed to get the final shot off on Soontir. Getting rid of defensive tokens when flying them is huge (because just one evade already cuts their base damage in half). Normally, you can do this by blocking (they're 12 points, after all)

Also, the 2 dice stat is kind of misleading when scum Zs get feedback array (just again...******* aggressors )

I don't know. Severely damaged an agressor (left it on 3 hp with ion cannon warthogs at range 2), and at range 1 i killed one in a single volley. Okay ion is 3 dice but the 2 dice attacks were also did half of the damage.

gimme your dice rolls that bend towards probability,

I needz em!

2 Attack being ok died the second FF decided that everything TIE should be rocking 3 dice on the defense.

So 2 Attack has been worthless since the game's inception? We'd better tell swarms to give back all their tournament wins, then.

In general I don't think I understand this conversation. Ships obligated to stay at 2 Attack (TIE fighters, Headhunters, A-wings) make up about 1/6 of all points spent in successful tournament lists. Smart players think those ships have value, and are continuing to win with them. How do those facts indicate the end of 2 Attack?

Right, so anyway. I think I'd take that as a challenge if I were a game developer. Can FFG make a viable, single red die ship? I believe they could.

They made a viable zero red dice ship (in epic format, anyway )

... should of...

Right, so anyway. I think I'd take that as a challenge if I were a game developer. Can FFG make a viable, single red die ship? I believe they could.

As a combat ship without extra damage gimmicks or additional weapon slots while obeying the 12 point floor? I doubt it. It's got 1 probably because they didn't want to do zero (if it was the last ship left with a Munitions Failure it wouldn't have zero attack and be autodead) but it's practically that already.

Two attack dice are worthless. They're only even passable against two or less defense, and they're the lone reason I stopped playing A wings.

Not counting epic, there are 21 ship classes in the game.

Of them, the following 12 are two or less defense...

B-wing

X-wing

Y-wing

Hwk-290

Z-95

Yt-1300

Yt-2400

Tie Bomber

Tie Phantom*

Firespray-31

Lambda Shuttle

Vt-49 Decimator

If you count epic, there are two more, with the raider coming in for a third.

*Yes I know the cloaked phantom, esp ecd echo - whisper have 4 dice - so pull them out of the equation if you want to

That's more than half the ships.

As someone who has been running the HWK in multiple tournament builds, I'll have to disagree with you on that point. I think, thanks in large part to the Scum pilots, we'll likely see more HWKs on tables at the competitive level. At the very least, I'll be running more of them, though I am but a single data point.

How many hawks do you run without turrets? How many red dice do these turrets throw?

Phantom Nerf is going to help 2 attack ships now that you'll actually be able to get one in arc.

2 Attack at 12 points is fine. 2 attack at 20-30 isn't and it's the reason why named a wings are so bad. Who cares if you can take 15 actions a turn with your a wing, it's still throwing the same amount of dice as a 12 point TIE Fighter.

Phantom Nerf is going to help 2 attack ships now that you'll actually be able to get one in arc.

2 Attack at 12 points is fine. 2 attack at 20-30 isn't and it's the reason why named a wings are so bad. Who cares if you can take 15 actions a turn with your a wing, it's still throwing the same amount of dice as a 12 point TIE Fighter.

My Jake Farrell build would argue that named A-Wings are completly and utterly dominating. I've yet to lose a game with them, and they pack enough punch...

I usually mess around and fiddle with what they have on them, but basically something like this:

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, Stealth Device

Prototype Pilot x 4

or

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, AutoThirsters

2x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters, Chaardan

1x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters,

Keeps A-Wings ultra-competitive (unless against Decimators. In which case, their Outmaneuver is wasted points. They still do well, just not as well.)

Proton Rockets give you a quick - Let's get this ship out of the fight! and then the rest of the game you plan on getting more shots than the enemy does.

Phantom Nerf is going to help 2 attack ships now that you'll actually be able to get one in arc.

2 Attack at 12 points is fine. 2 attack at 20-30 isn't and it's the reason why named a wings are so bad. Who cares if you can take 15 actions a turn with your a wing, it's still throwing the same amount of dice as a 12 point TIE Fighter.

My Jake Farrell build would argue that named A-Wings are completly and utterly dominating. I've yet to lose a game with them, and they pack enough punch...

I usually mess around and fiddle with what they have on them, but basically something like this:

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, Stealth Device

Prototype Pilot x 4

or

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, AutoThirsters

2x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters, Chaardan

1x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters,

Keeps A-Wings ultra-competitive (unless against Decimators. In which case, their Outmaneuver is wasted points. They still do well, just not as well.)

Proton Rockets give you a quick - Let's get this ship out of the fight! and then the rest of the game you plan on getting more shots than the enemy does.

A 35 point soontir gets +2 pilot skill, and +1 attack. The later of which is the point of the thread.

Phantom Nerf is going to help 2 attack ships now that you'll actually be able to get one in arc.

2 Attack at 12 points is fine. 2 attack at 20-30 isn't and it's the reason why named a wings are so bad. Who cares if you can take 15 actions a turn with your a wing, it's still throwing the same amount of dice as a 12 point TIE Fighter.

My Jake Farrell build would argue that named A-Wings are completly and utterly dominating. I've yet to lose a game with them, and they pack enough punch...

I usually mess around and fiddle with what they have on them, but basically something like this:

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, Stealth Device

Prototype Pilot x 4

or

Jake Farrell - Push The Limit, A-Wing Test Pilot (Outmaneuver), Proton Rockets, AutoThirsters

2x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters, Chaardan

1x Green Squad - Outmaneuver, Autothrusters,

Keeps A-Wings ultra-competitive (unless against Decimators. In which case, their Outmaneuver is wasted points. They still do well, just not as well.)

Proton Rockets give you a quick - Let's get this ship out of the fight! and then the rest of the game you plan on getting more shots than the enemy does.

I've had good success with A-wings, too, so I certainly agree they can do well. It's interesting to me that you find a 35 point Jake worth your while but a similarly pointed Soontir, not.

Its the proton rockets. I've killed xwings in one hit, if done right. I'm not a super fan of ships that expensive, but my point was that named a wings are as viable as any other named ship. I'd rather get two a wings for that price.

The A-wing is my "one of" ship

in terms of refit prototype versus bandit, it is strictly mathematically inferior to the Z-95 in terms of price per stats, but it is so much more effective on the tabletop it is almost stagger. The amount of difference dat dial, dat boost, and all that combined even with dat one extra fickle green dice make it among the easiest 3 points I have ever spent. It's a filler ship I'm not ashamed of bringing

of course, you start bringing too many and its +6 points or +9 points and it keeps getting harder to justify (though Predator Gemmer is incredibly legit)

I've also really been enjoying the PTL + Outmanuever refit Jake. Outmanuever really compensates for those 2 dice. If there was another character that could barrel-roll I'd enjoy using him too.

The empire doesn't need A-wings because Ties are amazing, but I sorely miss them in scum where I've found the naked M-3A to be a poor replacement

The A-wing is my "one of" ship

in terms of refit prototype versus bandit, it is strictly mathematically inferior to the Z-95 in terms of price per stats, but it is so much more effective on the tabletop it is almost stagger. The amount of difference dat dial, dat boost, and all that combined even with dat one extra fickle green dice make it among the easiest 3 points I have ever spent. It's a filler ship I'm not ashamed of bringing

of course, you start bringing too many and its +6 points or +9 points and it keeps getting harder to justify (though Predator Gemmer is incredibly legit)

I've also really been enjoying the PTL + Outmanuever refit Jake. Outmanuever really compensates for those 2 dice. If there was another character that could barrel-roll I'd enjoy using him too.

The empire doesn't need A-wings because Ties are amazing, but I sorely miss them in scum where I've found the naked M-3A to be a poor replacement

Again the MA-3 with 2 firepower, doesn't matter it has 3 agility without the title and cannon it is not a good ship. Too expensive for a filler.

As someone who has been running the HWK in multiple tournament builds, I'll have to disagree with you on that point. I think, thanks in large part to the Scum pilots, we'll likely see more HWKs on tables at the competitive level. At the very least, I'll be running more of them, though I am but a single data point.

How many hawks do you run without turrets? How many red dice do these turrets throw?

All my HWKs are turreted, but that doesn't stop me from taking the range 3 long-shot with the single dice attack in a game. I think of all the named HWK pilots, only two might have value running without a turret, those two being Torkil and Roark, and even then, that seems like quite the stretch. I would be curious if anyone out there has run either of these two (or perhaps another pilot) turret-less successfully, and if so, what they chose for escorts and what their opponents flew.

My current rebel tourney list runs a single HWK with an ICT, while the Scum list I'm testing runs two HWKs, one with an ICT and the other with a blaster that shoots 3-4 dice (Palob with Opportunist). Additionally, I have been toying with a Scum list running all three named HWK pilots, which would bring it to two ICTs and a 3-4 damage blaster, though I think that this specific list is more of a "fun" build rather than a "winning" one.

Last game I lost my blaster turret on my hawk from a crit early on, was still surprisingly useful (and survived the game.) I managed to put a couple damage on a IG-2000 with a 1-attack weapon (though I got 3 dice because of range and opportunist), so I don't think we can say 2 attack is useless. I also once took down a cloaked phantom at range 3 with a pair of z-95 (4 hits no evades). Green dice are fickle. In my experience, 2 modified attack dice have a good chance of hitting 3 (or even 4) unmodified defence dice.

Last game I lost my blaster turret on my hawk from a crit early on, was still surprisingly useful (and survived the game.) I managed to put a couple damage on a IG-2000 with a 1-attack weapon (though I got 3 dice because of range and opportunist), so I don't think we can say 2 attack is useless. I also once took down a cloaked phantom at range 3 with a pair of z-95 (4 hits no evades). Green dice are fickle. In my experience, 2 modified attack dice have a good chance of hitting 3 (or even 4) unmodified defence dice.

yo!

oh, you weren't calling for me

but yes, green dice are fickle. That's why you never ever rely on them failing your opponent and accept that sometimes strange happens (but also never when the opponent has defensive tokens)

naked green dice are a little more even, so blocking become really important (or Palob, Palob's awesome)

I know I was using accuracy corrector on 2 tempests until i was blue in the face trying to shoot a tank-IG2000 (stealth device, jamming device) 2-3 evades every time, or 1 -2 evades plus one changed to a focus. (for when i was close enough to range 1 and didn't use acc corrector).