When they make a 14 cost 3 attack generic ship is when the 2 dice ship is dead.

Are you talking about the A3-Interceptor. The one that you can't have 3 attack dice on for less than 19 points?

no he's talking about a hypothetical (that is so ridiculously under-priced that it'll never happen) in order to illustrate how it's not the end of two firepower

Wasn´t three dice the standard to begin with?

The powercreep might be that it is angling towards 4 attack dice becoming the standard.

Starting with the Phantom (even when nerfed it still has the 4 dice), HLC, and the arrival of Kavil with a blaster turret.

Sensor Jammer is, Lone Wolf potentially is unless you're up against ships in your VI bracket (PS7-9 for Whisper and 6-8 for Echo).

Sensor Jammer reduces the damage by one from every attack that comes at your from a ship that couldn't spend their action on a Focus. Actual game play is messy. People lose their action, or need it to barrel-roll or some such. It can really protect you from torpedoes and missiles. I love to put it on my expensive E-wings. It costs the same as a shield upgrade, by that measure if it activates once it is worth its cost.

Wasn´t three dice the standard to begin with?

The powercreep might be that it is angling towards 4 attack dice becoming the standard.

Starting with the Phantom (even when nerfed it still has the 4 dice), HLC, and the arrival of Kavil with a blaster turret.

I think 4 attack dice is still a rare sight.

I basically only see it with HLC, Phantoms and Opportunist (Yeah I don't see in on expose since expose sucks)

In my area at least, Decimators are really common. More attacks at 2 attack dice is a great deal against Low agility ships.

The real problem with 2 attack dice ships is how hard it is for them to hurt 3 (or 4) agility ships. But I really like A-wings backed up with Et'han. Sure they may only get one hit or so through, but you can make it a crit.

It is super easy to get R1 with Ties and Bandits, so no, I don't think this is the end of 2 attack ships.

Wasn´t three dice the standard to begin with?

The powercreep might be that it is angling towards 4 attack dice becoming the standard.

Starting with the Phantom (even when nerfed it still has the 4 dice), HLC, and the arrival of Kavil with a blaster turret.

HLCs and Phantoms perhaps

reasons being:

1.) super modified with re-rolls and focus (generally through FCS or Predator +/- gunner + focus)

2.) super high defenses (high agility, defensive tokens, defensive crew, auto-thrusters on aggressors etc.)

lumped onto the same ship and give the utter lack of partial scoring make for some annoying match-ups

Now Kavil is not so much. 4 TLed dice can be scary, but the dude's flying a Y-wing and he can't even shoot them if he can't focus.

I will say that the new ATs have made hitting ships at range 3 with 2 attack dice nearly impossible. You may get the odd damage in there, but its extremely rare.

IGs are a nightmare for 2 attack ships. Even if you do get damage through (which is hard), they still have a ton of health. An IG doesn't care if he loses a shield or two. Also, they can be pretty hard to train a bunch of guns on.

I think the Tie and Zs are fine for what they do. As a filler blocker or part of a swarm/mini-swarm. A-wings I feel don't do well as a swarm ship. I think they are better as a fast blocker or as harasser/flanker.

I will say that the new ATs have made hitting ships at range 3 with 2 attack dice nearly impossible. You may get the odd damage in there, but its extremely rare.

IGs are a nightmare for 2 attack ships. Even if you do get damage through (which is hard), they still have a ton of health. An IG doesn't care if he loses a shield or two. Also, they can be pretty hard to train a bunch of guns on.

I think the Tie and Zs are fine for what they do. As a filler blocker or part of a swarm/mini-swarm. A-wings I feel don't do well as a swarm ship. I think they are better as a fast blocker or as harasser/flanker.

to be fair, shooting 3+ agility at range 3 with 2 dice was already impossible barring RNGesus breaking wind and knocking away all your opponent's hits + focus

and I agree with your assessment of the A-wing. Apart from Gemmer (pain in the ass anti-swarm) and Jakes (diet Soontir), the Prototype pilot is an amazing little filler ship that does an unprecedented amount of work by blocking the **** out of people. It's more than worth the 3 points over a lone bandit, which actually seems to hinder your squadron rather than add anything to it. Two prototypes goes up to +6 points, though, and then 3 gets to +9...yeah it gets impossible to justify unless you love running lots of A-wings.

When they make a 14 cost 3 attack generic ship is when the 2 dice ship is dead.

Are you talking about the A3-Interceptor. The one that you can't have 3 attack dice on for less than 19 points?

You can get a 3 dice interceptor for 18. Only 5 in 100 point list, 15 attack dice. At 15 and 16 points, only 6 for 18 dice same as an 8 ship tie or z swarm. At 14 points you get 7 ships and 21 dice. If I'm going to use a 18 dice list. I want 8 ships , not 6

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

How often do fuel tankers make up from a quarter to over a third of the brigade?

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

How often do fuel tankers make up from a quarter to over a third of the brigade?

more pressingly, how often do fuel tankers take fuel from the enemy

Palob's just too good

Wasn´t three dice the standard to begin with?

Two dice was the standard in Wave 1. The X-Wing was the only ship out of four to have something other than two attack.

Defense dic in this game are a lock, attack dice are a key.

As long as there is agi 0,1 and 2 in the game, att 2 has a place.

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

How often do fuel tankers make up from a quarter to over a third of the brigade?

Exactly, which is why the real problem with the HWK is that it costs way too much. Having 1 attack is fine — it's a support ship. But its support abilities aren't worth taking at the expense of another ship that can kill things, and when HWKs cost in the 20s, that's what you're doing when you take one.

The HWK should have cost 10 to 19 points. Yeah, someone could have a 10-HWK swarm, but I doubt that would be an effective list with that K-turnless dial and 1 attack. But at 13 to 19 points, players would be much more willing to run a named pilot in a squadron for support purposes.

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

How often do fuel tankers make up from a quarter to over a third of the brigade?

Exactly, which is why the real problem with the HWK is that it costs way too much. Having 1 attack is fine — it's a support ship. But its support abilities aren't worth taking at the expense of another ship that can kill things, and when HWKs cost in the 20s, that's what you're doing when you take one.

The HWK should have cost 10 to 19 points. Yeah, someone could have a 10-HWK swarm, but I doubt that would be an effective list with that K-turnless dial and 1 attack. But at 13 to 19 points, players would be much more willing to run a named pilot in a squadron for support purposes.

Which the evidence doesn't back up.

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

How often do fuel tankers make up from a quarter to over a third of the brigade?

Exactly, which is why the real problem with the HWK is that it costs way too much. Having 1 attack is fine — it's a support ship. But its support abilities aren't worth taking at the expense of another ship that can kill things, and when HWKs cost in the 20s, that's what you're doing when you take one.

The HWK should have cost 10 to 19 points. Yeah, someone could have a 10-HWK swarm, but I doubt that would be an effective list with that K-turnless dial and 1 attack. But at 13 to 19 points, players would be much more willing to run a named pilot in a squadron for support purposes.

Adding an attack die makes taking a naked HWK a more viable choice without really affecting the power level of fatter HWKs. A 10 point HWK gives you a 15 point Ion Cannon Turret or a 14 point Blaster Turret. A 100 point game is tight enough on points that you can't afford to take a ship just as support, two dice doesn't make it an offensive powerhouse but keeps it from being useless when shooting.

Two attack dice are worthless. They're only even passable against two or less defense, and they're the lone reason I stopped playing A wings.

Again we've got to consider that this forum is '100 point, six rock, deathmatch' centric. For those of us that play out of those narrow parameters and play scenarios, epic etc etc... well role specific ships actually come into their niche and excel.

If you cant find a place for a 1 or 2 attack die ship in your 100 popoint tourny list, fine dont use it but it doesnt make the ship 'worthless', it makes it 'worthless in one play style' and actually not even that , it makes its 'worthless in one game format to *you*'

which is cool, like i say if this is the case no one is making you buy them

To use my 'armoured brigade' analogy... if i were the brigadier responsible for sending my battlegroup forwards and needed to select a squadron size element to secure a postition i probably wouldnt assign fuel trucks for an armoured spearhead.

If on the other hand i had to conduct a full brigade operation that would penetrate kilometres behind the lines I might assign a logistics/support element once I was sure the 'teeth' arms could engage effectively to ensure they could continue to engage in the larger manouvre battle.

If you cant find a place for a 1 or 2 attack die ship in your 100 popoint tourny list, fine dont use it but it doesnt make the ship 'worthless', it makes it 'worthless in one play style' and actually not even that , it makes its 'worthless in one game format to *you*'

You are right, format makes a huge difference. A change from 1 to 2 dice wouldn't make a bit of difference in a 300 point list. It would make it a lot easier to justify putting a 24 point Kyle Katarn in a 100 point list. When the only decent options for HWKs cost as much as adding another hard hitting ace it's a much harder sell.

I don't think that 2 attack is worthless. Two attack sucks when you've only got 3 or 4 ships and they all have 2 attack.

So what's really meant is a-wings are useless, but six of them have won a tournament before so really they can't be that bad.

No, you see sometimes you play epic games where no one has to shoot anyone.

In epic if you aren't brining Roark in a list that includes a CR90, you are doing it wrong. Shooting the CR90 at PS 12 is awesome. Especially when The Raider hits. However, in a 100 point game, give me a B-wing over any HWK.

1 atk is worthless sorry that not to say there isn't another reason to take a hwk. Just 1 atk is rarely going to hit even if you are garaunteed to hit every turn. Even the devs said they should of made it 2atk.

... should of...

Right, so anyway. I think I'd take that as a challenge if I were a game developer. Can FFG make a viable, single red die ship? I believe they could.