Just noticing a trend but it seem like 2 firepower is becoming so under-powered you will no longer see it. 2 Firepower has always been the under dog which is why you seen more X-wing than Tie Advances but with the proliferation of HLCs and the inclusion of new mangler cannons it seem like 3 firepower is the new standard for competitive list.

Sure there is always the Tie Fighter and Z-95 but usually you get a swarm having twice as many ships making them essentially 4 firepower per enemy ship. You see autothrusters more on Tie Interceptors instead of A-wings. The MA-3 Scyk without the title will never be played and the cannon upgrades are usually the HLC or Mangler. ORS is never played. Also the YT-2400 is never played without the Outrider title because 2 firepower is not enough even on a turret.

So I'm just saying the power creep is starting to make its way into the game. There are some noticeable changes. The HWK at 1 firepower even if it gets bumped to two it will never be able to keep up now that 3 is the new standard.

2 attack is perfectly fine in swarm builds, because your intention is to outnumber your opponent. More attack is always nice though.

1 atk on the hwk was a mistake. Even if that 1 atk always hit it would be mostly useless. 2 atk is weak as well however it still has a place as you said tie fighters, z95s, fixed advanced, even awings are kinda ok, Ors was useless even when it was released no change on that one just bad point cost.

Well when you look at the cost of a two attack dice ship I say it's pretty fair.

12 pts for a fodder/blocker does what it's suppose to do

Put a bigger threat on the board and fly the two attack dice ship aggressively and it'll take the fire away from your more important ship, or it becomes that annoying mosquito your opponent may wish he dealt with it early on

I don't think there is any power creep.

Mangler cannon costs 4 pts.

To put on a scyke it costs an additional two pts Increasing it to 6 pts. So that scum Scyk now costs 20 pts for a generic pilot that still dies just as easily as a tie fight, and at 20 pts can only squeeze five in.

All low ps

The hlc also costs 7 pts, and other than the yt2400 any other ship that takes it is rolling three dice, so your paying 7 pts for one extra dice.

Again the scyke is another exception but that is costing 9 pts to increase its attack by two

Even on the yt2400 if you take Outrider, you have a blind spot which can be highly taken advantage of. Also with Outrider that is 12 pts to use it as a turret which actually could be a z95

You still get your two extra attack dice, but have more overall health and evade dice. Again fly it aggressively and it may do more harm than expected, or die a fiery death giving something else the chance to live

The hwk was in the early waves and they made a mistake on that, but anything designed by humans is never perfect, so just be happy the game is as good as it is

I think your looking at it the wrong way

When they make a 14 cost 3 attack generic ship is when the 2 dice ship is dead.

Just noticing a trend but it seem like 2 firepower is becoming so under-powered you will no longer see it. 2 Firepower has always been the under dog which is why you seen more X-wing than Tie Advances but with the proliferation of HLCs and the inclusion of new mangler cannons it seem like 3 firepower is the new standard for competitive list.

Sure there is always the Tie Fighter and Z-95 but usually you get a swarm having twice as many ships making them essentially 4 firepower per enemy ship. You see autothrusters more on Tie Interceptors instead of A-wings. The MA-3 Scyk without the title will never be played and the cannon upgrades are usually the HLC or Mangler. ORS is never played. Also the YT-2400 is never played without the Outrider title because 2 firepower is not enough even on a turret.

So I'm just saying the power creep is starting to make its way into the game. There are some noticeable changes. The HWK at 1 firepower even if it gets bumped to two it will never be able to keep up now that 3 is the new standard.

I'm not sure that "proliferation" of HLC and Mangler really mean anything for two attack ships since I think both cannons and are taken at significant cost to any ship that takes them (HLC starts at 7 and the two ships that best have the most use for them take them with a tax -- Scyk and 2400). So, while we see higher number of attacks, we're also generally seeing fewer ships on the table overall and and less firepower overall. That may change a bit with the phantom errata.

However, it is true that increasing defensive capability of ships is a very big deal and definitely affects 2 attack ships. That's something that certainly needs to be watched in the future.

I played a game last night and saw autothrusters on an IG-88 cancel 4 hits in one round from 5 tie fighters along with a couple more later in the game. That was the difference in me winning and losing the game by the end. I'll be interested to see if the A-wing, as the most expensive 2 attack ship (though it has access to Autothrusters), continues to do well post Wave 6 as it started to do in the store championships before that Wave came out.

Fortunately, I think the only ships that gained autothrusters are those that really needed it, so I'm sure that FFG will be on it in the future.

Y Wings are still very potent.
Of course when you get the double attack due to BTL... (:

Just noticing a trend but it seem like 2 firepower is becoming so under-powered you will no longer see it. 2 Firepower has always been the under dog which is why you seen more X-wing than Tie Advances but with the proliferation of HLCs and the inclusion of new mangler cannons it seem like 3 firepower is the new standard for competitive list.

Sure there is always the Tie Fighter and Z-95 but usually you get a swarm having twice as many ships making them essentially 4 firepower per enemy ship. You see autothrusters more on Tie Interceptors instead of A-wings. The MA-3 Scyk without the title will never be played and the cannon upgrades are usually the HLC or Mangler. ORS is never played. Also the YT-2400 is never played without the Outrider title because 2 firepower is not enough even on a turret.

So I'm just saying the power creep is starting to make its way into the game. There are some noticeable changes. The HWK at 1 firepower even if it gets bumped to two it will never be able to keep up now that 3 is the new standard.

I think you've got the wrong kind of power creep. The power creep is not enhanced offensive abilities, but instead stacking of damage mitigation upgrades ( C3PO, R2D2 crew, Autothrusters all being fine examples). It is the defensive upgrades pushing 2 attack ships out.

I don't even seeing the defensive upgrades really pushing 2 attack ships out. Does Han with a pair of droids want to see a swarm? Hell no. C3P0, R2-D2, and the falcon title mitigate 3 damage a round. That hurts lists with a low ship count way more than it hurts swarms.

Autothrusters is the new kid on the block and is the the first defensive upgrade that can be used multiple times a round, but only conditionally. Against a swarm, it can hurt but the swarm just has to try to force range 1-2 engagements.

The flip side of all this is there are more and more tools that ignore defenses entirely. Autoblasters, AB turrets, feedback arrays. Hell, you can make a case for dead man's switch being this type of upgrade too.

So I'd say attack 2 ships are fine. You can't just take as many of them as possible and count on jousting math to carry you to victory.

I don't think TIE fighters or Z-95's are going anywhere.

I disagree.

My AB equipped Y-Wings would entirely disagree with you.

I'll be interested to see if the A-wing continues to do well post Wave 6 as it started to do in the store championships before that Wave came out.

...I'm really curious: how many people actually watched the events where the A-Wing swarm supposed to have done well? The ship has a very nice dial, but that only goes so far, and I just don't see what the generic 1 PS pilots are going to be able to do with their 2 Attack ships that they'll almost never get into R1 with.

the only ship that is absolutely invincible to 2 dice attacks seems to be the aggressor

******* thing never dies, no matter how many range 1 Z-95s I bring against it, but suddenly I bust out my Defenders and they go own like chumps like that extra red die is their ******* kryptonite

honestly have no explanation other than horrible luck (taken to calling that opponent "magic" because he keeps rolling unmodified bull, like a stress and Wesed HLC dash with Jan Ors that then goes on to one-shot the X-wing...guess how), because Palob was there to ensure that the Zs could hit through those dice

anyway, they seem fine. They did great work against everything from decimators to fire sprays to tie fighters, and even managed to get the final shot off on Soontir. Getting rid of defensive tokens when flying them is huge (because just one evade already cuts their base damage in half). Normally, you can do this by blocking (they're 12 points, after all)

Also, the 2 dice stat is kind of misleading when scum Zs get feedback array (just again...******* aggressors )

Autothrusters is the new kid on the block and is the the first defensive upgrade that can be used multiple times a round, but only conditionally.

Lone Wolf, Sensor Jammer and Flight Instructor all say "hi"'.

I'm also pretty sure that Determination, R4-D6, R2-F2, Stealth Device, Tactical Jammer, and Countermeasures could also make that list.

Also the YT-2400 is never played without the Outrider title because 2 firepower is not enough even on a turret.

To be fair, I have never actually played the YT-2400 with the Outrider title, so you can't say never.

Autothrusters is the new kid on the block and is the the first defensive upgrade that can be used multiple times a round, but only conditionally.

Lone Wolf, Sensor Jammer and Flight Instructor all say "hi"'.

I'm also pretty sure that Determination, R4-D6, R2-F2, Stealth Device, Tactical Jammer, and Countermeasures could also make that list.

Wow, I don't know how all those escaped me...I guess I just wasn't thinking far back enough for most of those. The vast majority of those upgrades listed have been out for a long time, and many of the ones that are newer are pretty terrible (countermeasures, I'm looking at you).

Regardless, if anything, that list only further illustrates that 2 attack ships aren't dead. They've been consistently useful throughout the entire time defensive upgrades have been added and now, all of a sudden, we're questioning whether 2 attack ships are obsolete? Why?

Are autothrusters so uniquely powerful that they top that list in a way more impactful than anything in the past? Are they just the straw that broke the camel's back?

Or maybe this is more likely an overreaction to the difficulty of killing IG88 with TIE fighters.

2 Firepower has always been the under dog which is why you seen more X-wing than Tie Advances

Not the case. The X-wing as it stands is a little weak and red dice have more effect results than green do so the old TIE advanced (before TIE/x1's fix) was worse.

Two firepower has recently been less successful because of the Old Phantom, but the New Phantom shouldn't pose nearly as much of a problem for two reasons: one, it's much more challenging to fly so fewer people will fly it, and it's an easier bird to catch so more guns trained on it and more chances for those fickle green dice to fail.

Two firepower's main difference from three is that two firepower ships tend to be cheaper and thus more numerous: lots of ATK 2 ships do more damage, fewer ATK 3 ships spike higher. This means that the lower number of higher attack ships are better at taking down high agility ships, whereas the large numbers of attack 2 ships shred low agility ships.

Two attack isn't a problem provided you bring enough of them. If you don't, it's a case of you not bringing enough gun rather than bringing ATK 2 ships.

I play A wings a lot.

Test pilot allows you to take PTL *and* outmanouvre.

Even with 2 dice attack when you can usually target lock that or focus it (or both if you dont need the dodge) which helps but removing a defence dice is *almost* as good as having an extra red one.

The 2 red dice attack ships have a role to play and its not lone gunfighter.

As others have said they are either attacking in swarms... or sacrificial cheap blockers, or missile delivery systems or im my case they are hard to hit 'harassers' that chip away at the enemy. Not so good in a timed tournament game but in home game where you can afford to hit the flank, disengage and come back in again its less of an issue.

If you're worried about 1 die attack on a HWK you havent really got to grips with its role, its a support ship. its like arguing that the fuel tankers in an armoured tank brigage dont have 120mm guns fitted to them

Mini swarms are not to be underestimated, the advanced sucks because it's an expensive two attack ship but the tie and headhunter are good because they are cheap.

Any release over 20 points needs three attack to justify taking them or needs the ability to mount a cannon.

Two attacks are still perfectly valid against alot of ships like the x-wing or b-wings it's when your against fat Hans or phantoms they struggle.

Lone Wolf, Sensor Jammer and Flight Instructor all say "hi"

...amusingly, you can put all three of those upgrades on a TIE Phantom, along with an ACD.

Whether it would be worth it is an entirely different matter...

Sensor Jammer is, Lone Wolf potentially is unless you're up against ships in your VI bracket (PS7-9 for Whisper and 6-8 for Echo).

the only ship that is absolutely invincible to 2 dice attacks seems to be the aggressor

******* thing never dies, no matter how many range 1 Z-95s I bring against it, but suddenly I bust out my Defenders and they go own like chumps like that extra red die is their ******* kryptonite

honestly have no explanation other than horrible luck (taken to calling that opponent "magic" because he keeps rolling unmodified bull, like a stress and Wesed HLC dash with Jan Ors that then goes on to one-shot the X-wing...guess how), because Palob was there to ensure that the Zs could hit through those dice

anyway, they seem fine. They did great work against everything from decimators to fire sprays to tie fighters, and even managed to get the final shot off on Soontir. Getting rid of defensive tokens when flying them is huge (because just one evade already cuts their base damage in half). Normally, you can do this by blocking (they're 12 points, after all)

Also, the 2 dice stat is kind of misleading when scum Zs get feedback array (just again...******* aggressors )

the only ship that is absolutely invincible to 2 dice attacks seems to be the aggressor

******* thing never dies, no matter how many range 1 Z-95s I bring against it, but suddenly I bust out my Defenders and they go own like chumps like that extra red die is their ******* kryptonite

honestly have no explanation other than horrible luck (taken to calling that opponent "magic" because he keeps rolling unmodified bull, like a stress and Wesed HLC dash with Jan Ors that then goes on to one-shot the X-wing...guess how), because Palob was there to ensure that the Zs could hit through those dice

anyway, they seem fine. They did great work against everything from decimators to fire sprays to tie fighters, and even managed to get the final shot off on Soontir. Getting rid of defensive tokens when flying them is huge (because just one evade already cuts their base damage in half). Normally, you can do this by blocking (they're 12 points, after all)

Also, the 2 dice stat is kind of misleading when scum Zs get feedback array (just again...******* aggressors )

I don't know. Severely damaged an agressor (left it on 3 hp with ion cannon warthogs at range 2), and at range 1 i killed one in a single volley. Okay ion is 3 dice but the 2 dice attacks were also did half of the damage.

gimme your dice rolls that bend towards probability,

I needz em!

When they make a 14 cost 3 attack generic ship is when the 2 dice ship is dead.

Are you talking about the A3-Interceptor. The one that you can't have 3 attack dice on for less than 19 points?