OK, this is getting kind of out-there.

One thing I see people saying is that BRT is like a speed boost. Similar? Maybe. But, it's not the same thing. If you pump an attack to 35 speed, Strife's Patronage, American Made, and Superior Witch, don't care. None of them can help against BRT in that situation. BRT doesn't add speed, it decreases the check.

It's just like Willful is not going to help you against Demonic Self-Sacrifice Strategem. DS-SS modifies the difficulty not a control.

Tagrineth said:

God i wish yoga masterywould come back someday although steve said it will never happen.

As for BRT Still dont see a problem No one in my group has complained about it since higher caliber got banned.

KawaiiMistress said:

Hi there!

Yep, I own 4x BRT. I'm also a scout. Also my BRT's weren't all that expensive, so I'm not sure what you're meaning when you say "traded everything for."

I make a point when I'm out at various events for trading for Extra BRTs, and then coming back and trading/selling them to my local players, at a lower then market value, and less then what it cost me rate. That way I can ensure my players who want to have BRT's, have BRTs.

When BRT's are used, and there are new players around, we make a point of educating them on how to deal with BRT.

I'm really proud that my veteran players will frequently sit and do "deck tech" with newer players so that they can find out how to improve their decks. Including a number of us, outright donate boxes of commons and uncommons to newer players to help fuel their card base immedatiely so they have more options, and can start to explore the game more quickly.

Seriously - yesterday at our regionals - There was only one game where BRT had any impact out of all the games. Otherwise it ate anti-hax, was atoned for it's wicked deeds, (It's really powerful when it's a blank face down foundation) or was genuinely a non-issue as folks were tending to play aggro decks, and watching a BRT for a player to have a -1 check from a Darkness Blade, doesn't make you feel so bad for the player who has the -1 on their check. 1/3rd of the decks at the regional were running a full set of BRT.

I haven't gotten around to posting in this thread since Saturday. Read everything... Obviously I don't think KOF 2006 or Anti-K are better foundations than BRT becuase they, although good foundations, are highly situational whereas BRT provides greater benefit (in more cases) and more often...

Thank you for the Regional anecdote Antigoth, unless you were fine tuning your deck for T2 kill every game I don't see taking BRT out as effective, granted the cards you draw will always dictate that consistency 'like that' is impossible, at which point having the best foundation in the game out as an alternate grab will do you just as good or better in the long run.

To back up my first post in this thread, 1/3 of the decks in your regional ran playsets of BRT, but as you have stated the top 2 swiss decks were obviously part of this 1/3, i.e. BRT defines the top tier of competitve meta, rather the hack/control it offers is the strongest in-game mechanic we currently have.

BRT isn't a 'huge problem', I have never and will never call for it to be banned as the current state of the game offers up a lot of answers for it. But it is the best foundation in the game at the moment.

- dut

ps. It is interesting, but not at all surprising to see your regional this weekend highlight agressive decks w/ 2X Hilde up there, and the ECC offer up mill galore. I actually am beginning to think that the game is finally reaching a balance where there are 2 viable kill conditions off of multiple characters and symbols. Good stuff

Blood Runs True is an easier, banned Cassie on a stick.

Banned Cassie only made the card go away if she discarded a card of the same type. And she didn't negate attacks.

What you have in BRT is an immediate early-game NO. NO to blocking, NO to playing answers, NO to playing anything. Sure, you get to draw 1 card, and of ourse, there is that roughly 1 in 20 chance you'll draw the same card if you have a set in the deck, but what happens the other 19 times? The card fizzles, the turn is ruined, the playing experience turns negative.

I can't count the number of times I've heard complaints about the card since I got my set, and even after trading away some of them, another player now has a set and I hear the same complaining. IT IS TOO EASY. It does too much for too little: hack blocks, hack checks for foundations that could help counter it, interrupt attack strings in aggro decks...

Sure, there are answers. Destiny is one of them. Does it really matter? In the end, Forethought got banned, having plenty of answers to it.

So what, now we're forced to have an anti-BRT in the deck? Destiny splashed, adding to other deck's inconsistency? Random spot in the deck for Ayame's Scarf? Include some random action card that does barely anything other than the obvious anti-meta?

That's the reason cards get banned. They create a negative play experience that can only be avoided by hampering the consistency of your decks if you ever want to stand a fighting chance.

Take it like this.

BRT doesn't need to be banned for competitive play.

BRT arguably needs to be banned for the health of the game.

I remember Worlds 2008. My boi MickyD played Dan and he popped 3x BRT out first turn. His opponent immediately scooped. Next game, he put 2x BRT on the board first turn an another one on his next turn. He scooped again. He probably quit the game.

I wouldn't care if BRT left or not.

Shaneth said:

Quoted for truth. I've always always ALWAYS hated BRT. Even after AwesomeDhalsim loaned me three to complete my playset for competative play, I still loathed it. There's a metric ass ton of ways around the card, some of which doesn't see as much play as they may, in theory should (read: Refusal of Power, Evil Plans, Koga Ninja Arts) but there were a bunch of answers to Olcadan's and it got the heave ho due to NPE and the game slowing down considreably.

We had a friend who'd been playing CCGs for a good long time try to get into UFS, just for his shear love of Darkstalkers. This was back when Addes' and co weren't banned yet. He then proceeded to play 6HS Donovan (arguably the most boring deck ever next to Hugo), then mill Yung Seung. Both of which used BRT as agressivly as possible. After that day he promptly quit.

I believe it was CanNats ()quote me if I'm wrong) where 85% or so of the top 16 decks used a playset of BRTs.

BRT has been run in countless regional winning decks.

It has been in every top tier deck since it's inception that could run it (whether it be Ibuki, Talbain, Alex, Yung Seung, etc etc).

The folks at FFG said it was a mistake to print that card.

And so on and so on. I think my major point to be made yes, good cards are good and should be run in competative play. But when cards are causing players to quit, don't we have to examine that?

One of the reasons for the birdman being banned was cause we had to allocate slots to anti Olcadan's cards wasn't it? Well now we're forced to splash into Destiny, Evil Plans, Ayame's Scarf (all of which are USELESS against non hacks). See a problem here?

My one concern that BRT won't go is because it's symbols just aren't as good as they used to be. Order lost it's kill conditions in Spiral Arrow and Feline Spike (most Order decks that weren't Arrow I found were Spikes) and half of ChinaBox's power. Evil lost Chester's and Bitter Rivals. And All, well All's about as good as Life right now.

Tagrineth said:

Oh wow, you've managed to win games without BRTs bothering you? And Experienced Combatant bothers you much more than BRT? I'll alert the media.

Once again, you're failing to see the point. Just because you've managed to play games where opposing BRTs didn't bother you doesn't make them less broken. As I've said, I've NEVER cared about being Olcadan's'd or Chester's'd, two of the 3 cards banned first. Just because you or I are nonchalant and uncaring about constantly-called problembatic cards DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY LESS PROBLEMATIC. Good for you Tag, you can enjoy your games infestd with BRT

THE MAJORITY OF UFS PLAYERS, HOWEVER, CANNOT.

Instead of polishing your own horn (innuendo intended), try considering the majority of this game's players, and not just your own personal success stories. Even though I've never lost to Hugo or Ibuki, I still wanted them banned. I didn't really have many problems with a LOT of the now-banned cards, but you KNOW how I wanted them banned.

As for KFT, that's the most retarded thing I've read.

KFT does generally give a promised 5-6 speed boost, but that black and white assertion is simply too foolish.

KFT is a once-only action card that requires 3 cards (an attack, itself, and a card to discard). BRT, on the other hand, is permanent, and only requires itself to be used.

KFT gives a speed bonus, and there are simply much more ways to cancel or reduce speed than there are to fight hax. American Made and Strife's Patronage ought to see much more play I'm sure, as well as the already existing Holding Ground/Spiritual Center to just soak minimal damage.

When you've KFT'd an attack, more often than not, they simply will not block (thus saving it), as opposed to BRT where they use a block, the CC gets reduced far too low, and they've effectively lost a block (and just because they've drawn a card doesn't mean it has a block, let alone the SAME block).

Like I said, essentially, KFT requires 3 cards. Hell, even its response requires 2 committed foundations (and the card itself) for a grand total of 3 resources used. As such, KFT's a rather large investment, which is why it's so balanced, and a pretty necessary card for the game.

BRT is horseshit. It's got so much unnecessary, unbalanced power in one card. Although All/Evil/Order were all hit heavily from the bans, BRT will always be a reason to run the symbols, and it's just not hax this game needs.

As a lot of veterans have noticed, hax is much more NPE than any Void trinity ever was.

MarcoPulleaux, you know what I'm tired of you of complaining about card a, b,c,d,e,and even f. You know what I know this is a free world and everyone can put their inputs into a forum, but enough is enough. I'm tired of you crying about cards that are broken or this character is broken and so on. Either go and get the cards to compete or find ways to punish your oppenent for using said card.

If you have nothing to be positive about this game shout up please. You have already pissed enough people off. I'm one of those. I normally don't post often, but I'm tired of seeing people who troll and want to be heard. Well like a few good players wanted before are a forum that helped each other and build this game. People like you are just tearing the game apart.

Sorry if I have offended people.

Iceman

You said it... Horse Poo....

You nailed it right on the head with the comparison between KFT and BRT. That was amazing. I can't believe someone would make a comparison like that to begin with. I brought up something similar earlier in this thread about BRT being a speed bonus. Amazing.

Those who claim that they survived a game with 4 BRT's on the table, and were not effected by it in any way? Also horse poo. I want a play by play on how the heck they pulled that off? Pure Luck(hacking and the opponent draws a darkness blade) , Destiny and the Scarf don't count. I say that becauseif you have already put jank in your deck just to get around it, it has already affected you.

iceman01 said:

As much complaining as there is I think its justified. The points that Shinji made is actually correct. If you like to play in an environment where you are getting punished for even trying to play the game, be my guest. Don't lie and say you wouldn't have more fun if BRT was gone...unless you are the one controlling the BRTs then its great.

There's been quite a few times when I've gotten destiny on the board and lynette'd their BRT, I can see my opponent gritting their teeth as soon as it hits the table.

It is very powerful but being a starter deck boxtopper its only accessible to those who've got the funds to buy it. Sorry about the critics, but the fact is that for a new player, seeing BRT hit the table and looking it up on the web just to see how expensive it is can be quite a deterrent to new players. All right, I know there are lots of ways to play around it. But to input those you need (as said a few posts above) to include cards in your deck just about exclusively against this card. There are quite a few, but the lost space remains.

I play in an environment where there are very few BRTs (there's one at our local store and a few other players in other cities have some). But seeing that hit the table just makes me and a few of the newer players (I've only played since March mind) want to scoop the match. I do think the current meta would be better without it ; either that, or make it more available.

It actually reminds me of one other card which made its way into any deck that could get it : Bitter Rivals. But at least, they weren't that hard to get. They closed down options a hell of a lot (you had to run anti-bitter cards or else just don't use throws, reversals and whatnot) which got them banned, and I do find the situation similar to that of BRT.

Mind you, it's probably because I can't get one myself '^^

...what? How is BRT hacking a block any different from KFT increasing speed? I don't see it at all. Seriously. Who gives a crap if it's one-time-use like KFT versus reusable like BRT, you only really need it once in the current meta. You say KFT makes you just not block? Why are you trying to block into a BRT then if it's so broken with hacking blocks? You know BOTH are going to make your block more difficult to pass.

You know why you still try to block into BRT?

because 1. There's a viable chance it won't freaking fail, like myself and others have pointed out many times

2. you're going to be handed cards

you say there are more answers for KFT's speed than BRT's hack. American Made, Strife's, Holding, Healer, and Assassination Arts vs. Destiny, Scarf, Willful, The Hero King, Endless Years of Practice. Looks pretty similar to me. Few cards from either side see enormous amounts of play.. oddly enough, the silver bullets to speed see less play vs. the indirect workarounds, compared to the silver bullets to hack vs. its less direct workarounds... because speed boosts are far less of a concern.

Also, how about Darkhunter of the Night? It costs you two foundations, but it's also still a guaranteed +5 or +6, and it's just as permanent as BRT - without handing your opponent a fresh card.

BRT's secondary market value should never, ever, ever be a factor in deciding if it gets banned, that's just colossally stupid. Let's go ban every good card that people want enough to spend money on! GREAT PLAN! While we're at it, let's ban Launcher/Breaker, Menuett Dance, Vibrato, lolRaging Gnome, Controller of Souls... and others. What should the cutoff point be? $20? $15? Can't make the price of entry into the game too high now.

Also, you guys talk about people scooping when they see multiple BRTs - those are just weak players. I remember hearing reports that people would scoop the instant their opponent would pass a Yoga Mastery - but YM is definitely not a banworthy card, period. I've seen people scoop to tons of other crap that's far less powerful than BRT, let's ban every card anyone's ever scooped to too.

Captain Punky said:

Depends on the game.

Sometimes it's as simple as making sure that all of my cards are solid, so if I'm dropping a foundation, my opponent will want to BRT simply because they don't want it to hit play. Then selectively holding out the foundations I actually need, until I've worked through the BRTs.

Sure... it means that I'm affected because I'm milling through my deck faster. But as someone who has played more then his fair share of mill, I'm aware of deck management, and working through situations like that. (Which I view as a normal part of the game)

Alternatively playing attacks that my opponent will want to ensure that I fail it, so it forces them to use BRT twice. Typically in that situation it means I'll have planned out the attack turn for a little while, and will manage so that I have several attacks, so that after the first one is BRT'd, can roll on.

Yet another option will be to feint suggest that I'm going for a build turn. Bait the BRT's on foundations, and then drop the attacks non-haxxed.

Oh... and when you're saying that Ayame's scarf is a Janky card... sure. So is Stained Honor. However when you put two Janky cards together, sometimes it's amazing what can happen. When I'm running a deck that has 8 1 checks (Jon Herr), Ayame's + Scarf + has the ability to scan its next check. (See that a 1 check is ontop, leave it there, play the attack which you know will be haxed, and draw into the next 1 check). Starting the turn by playing Aquakeneis as a 1 check that won't fail, to scan the top card.

Oh... and here is some "Hax playing" that people aren't thinking of:

You have a crappy card called destiny on the board.

Your opponent checks 4. They happen to have Soul of Ling Sheng Su, and use it to help pass the check.

The minute they've responded with that, the check is now a 6. It allows you to then respond with Destiny to stash that check in their momentum and force a recheck. I've used that to cause the opponent to fail a check, or to have to commit additional foundations to have to pass the same check.

Additionally with cards like Makai High Noble, Blinding Rafge, Lynette's Shop, Soul of Ling Sheng Su, Glare from the Abyss, and other 6 checks appearing in decks, while it's situational, the momentum generation provided by Destiny can be quite helpful to a number of decks.

Keep in mind, I like to see UFS as a puzzle, and like to figure out different ways to solve it. All BRT does is add another piece think through. How does your opponent use his BRT? Does he try to lock you down? Is he keeping it to force you to fail a block? Does he understand your deck fully how it works? Because I often play with "Janky" cards, I've had talented opponents let key cards see play, "because no one plays that janky card" so they have no idea what it does. Once you know what will trigger your opponent to use BRT, you'll know how to bait him into using it. Alternatively if they're saving it to force you to fail something later, punish them for not using it earlier. Which can then force your opponent to become more susceptible to blowing the BRT early in later turns.

~~~

For the people saying that Rarity - if a card is too rare, it should be banned because people can't get ahold of it. I guess we should ban all championship cards, the Path of the Master. Additionally we have players complaining that we don't have convention exclusive promo cards. No matter what happens, people aren't going to be happy with some aspect.

Captain Punky said:

No, it's not horse poo. In my final games against Scuba at our regional, he certainly did have out 3+ BRT most of the game. How did I get around it? Clever playing. When you've committed or baited out all copies of Red Lotus that someone's got on the board, how hard do you think they're going to fight off an Ira-Spinta? When their only ready cards are Path of the Master and BRT, how badly do you think they want to keep Feline Spike off the board?

And Destiny is not jank or crap, and I'll continue to play it even if they banned every hax card in the game. Why? Because the response is USEFUL. Momentum generation and forcing a recheck on a critical six is very useful.

And as a note, the Donovan deck that I used to beat Scuba did not have a single card in it that could stop BRT, barring the ONE copy of charismatic in the deck.

Thanks for playing.

This thread is filled with ****-chucking apes.

My work here is done.

As much complaining as there is I think its justified. The points that Shinji made is actually correct. If you like to play in an environment where you are getting punished for even trying to play the game, be my guest. Don't lie and say you wouldn't have more fun if BRT was gone...unless you are the one controlling the BRTs then its great.

There's been quite a few times when I've gotten destiny on the board and lynette'd their BRT, I can see my opponent gritting their teeth as soon as it hits the table.

I don't think that complaining is needed in these forums, okay sure the odd time. All Shinji does is complain, when was the last time that you have seen him actually posted something positive about this game. All it comes down to it is that he doesn't have a set of BRT and is tired of seeing it played against him. I may be wrong but hell, he never stops.

You know what I play in an eviroment that almost all the players have a set of BRT since the release of the card. So I guess you could say that our play group is very competitive. So if you didn't play with BRT you found an answer for it quickly or you played around the card and baited the player,if you wanted to do well. So for me it took me about 6 months before I decided to finish my set of BRT then again for me I like to have a playset of everything.

Actually when I do play this game my first goal is try have a good time no matter what the situation. Even if I'm getting my butt handed to me, or vice versa. Some people feed on putting there opponent down and it feeds there ego, that is why people are leaving the game. I have proof of that in my area. We had a heathly group of 12-16 players over two years a ago. Then players started to realize that they needed to play more competitive and be jerks about it to get all the promos. Then they would lose and they would cry.

One of the reasons why I became a scout was to help the players that couldn't get promo card a or b. Most people have forgotten that the main reason to play games is to have fun. Unless this is your job last time I check there weren't any wages being handed out by FFG.

Ask all the guys that travel all over the place. It's to play the game and meet new people and make friends, and have a good time. Plus to grow as a person.

Would I be happy if BRT was banned next month I don't really care. I think it's a bad sign when a games has this many banning in such a short time. I personally don't think that most of the bans in the last little while have been needed. There were answers for all of them. I understand why they did it. It was to help the game grow, also for the new players that are coming into this game in mid stream that can't get promo card a or b even set card a or b. This is were people have placed such a high value on a card that is why Coolstuff makes so much many off of us.

That is why I have created a second league for those players that don't want to play in a competitive enviroment, plus to help and grow the future players in our store. Then again you still get those players that need to feed on the weak.

Sorry for the Ramblings like I said before I'm getting tired of seeing all the negative posts.

Alas I concede this thread.

BRT isn't going anywhere and people will stay as competitive as ever. So until something magical changes, I'll be splashing Destiny into everything I can.

Our playgroup isn't very competitive, we know how to be, we just choose not to be. Although I think some of my group mates will say I play the most hardcore deck out of our group. I have way more fun playing with them than I do at tournaments, if only they made a "fun tournament" list where certain cards aren't permitted, I'd be pretty happy.

The cost isn't an argument for any card game. There are magic cards worth thousands of dollars, that's nothing compared to the $30 price tag on BRT. What I truly care about is just having fun, once the BRT hits the table, it no longer becomes fun. The game at that point becomes a chore to play.

I guess I'm not really saying anything at this point. Every argument has been debated from both sides right about now. Although I think more people are for keeping the card than getting rid of it. I'll see everyone at GenCon in August and put a face to all these arguments.

iceman01 said:

Buy a bottle so you can stop crying.

But because I'm such a gentleman, I'll give you some heads up.

Haven't you ever heard the expression "Everyone's a critic"? That applies to much more than just movies; it applies to EVERYTHING, really. That expression, of course, means that everybody has an opinion, and more often than not, people want their opinion to be heard. I don't understand what kind of world you think you live in where all we do is sing happy songs and praise this game.

I love UFS. If I didn't, I wouldn't play it. After having played competitively in Yugioh, Magic, and Pokemon (and having played other games for the fun of it), I can easily say this one tops them all.

A lot of people say negative things. The difference is that, more often than not, their displeasure is voiced in about 3 sentences, and with the English quality of a 10 year-old. I, on the other hand, choose to post eloquently-crafted essays, so that even a mouth-breathing dolt could read it and go, "Well, I may completely disagree with his post, but at least it makes sense, and I appreciate his opinion."

Using your logic, the thread starter is complaining, as is anyone else who wants the card banned, but I guess all those who don't, oh they're just role models. Complaining would be entering a thread like "New Tekken spoilers" and saying, "Well, I like the spoilers, but it won't matter since BRT is still around ruining the game."

This very thread's existence is to debate the still-legal Blood Runs True; bannable, or simply misunderstood? I understand I'm the constant target of maligned, myopic disdain from people who'd rather stroke their own ego (innuendo definitely intended) than listen to logical discourse, but really, do you even read what I post before you go and boo hoo?

Every card that was banned in July I had often said needed to be banned, so really, you can eat my khrum, as can anybody else who thought Bitter, Olcadan's, etc, weren't broken. I'm not alone in thinking BRT needs to be banned, so really, you have one of two options:

1. If you want to bash on me, how about bashing the thread starter, and other people who agree with me (all I can think of off the top of my head is Kawaii Mistress, but surely there are others). It's completely messed up that you sandbag me, but leave all others who have voiced my same opinions scott free.

2. STFU, and use your Johnson & Johnson's No More Tears Baby Shampoo

KawaiiMistress said:

That reminds me, you're picking up my next dental bill.

Quit whining it cycled

it's whinners like you who got chesters, lord of makia and bitter rivals banned. Im a scout at league events these cards arent banned nor will they ever be banned we teach new players how to get around them and even give away our exra cards to promote the game

They did stop whining about BRT >_> prior to this post and your posts, the last time anyone posted on this topic was July 20th...

Holy thread necro batman!