Antigoth said:

Just wanted to agree that it is a good essay ^^

I've said it since the start of this post, BRT, and for the arguments originally posted does not 'need' to go. It isn't broken. But I'll be damned if anyone can tell me of a 'better' card than it, the ability is the best on a foundation in the game. Like I said before, there are countless answers, and ways to bait and switch with it, but - the sheer fact that BRT can 'stop' or penalize the answer coming out means that it is a better ability - doesn't it?

So we have the best 'card' in the game that appears in every single deck that has it's symbols. Antigoth even admitted to putting it in a deck that actually slows down becuase of it (i.e. it is that much of an auto-include, some playtesting needs to happen to identify the top performers relative to the overall strategy).

The card easily defines the competitive meta (hack does, and it is the poster girl). But, the card isn't 'broken', becuase as AirCody has pointed out, it is not unanswerable or degenerative... (well it can be, but I'm not about to tell you the strategy or combination of cards that makes it that way...)

I don't agree that the game would be worse without BRT, it would just be different (possibly better, possibly worse). And like I said, it is quite a bit of fun with it in the meta now that we have punishment cards.

- dut

BRT does not need to be banned. BRT needs to be reprinted as a promo so i can get some. (with lynnete's you can only get 4)

I only really have 2 major problems with BRT.

1) It allows it's user to draw a card as well, which gives them +1 card advantage while the one who suffers the effect gets no bonus. That means that not only can it be used defensively to dodge one attack, it can also draw into a block for another attack of your opponent's. If it didn't have this clause I'd be tempted to call it fair. (Just tempted, mind)

2) It's gonna interfere with the new Combo mechanic. Right now Combo is new and frightening so not many people are fully utlizing it, but as time goes on and the possibilities of Combo grow and become more impressive, having BRT throw a wrench into the works of the specific string of attacks you're trying to throw out can really put a downer on your entire match, drawing into another attack after having one of yours BRT'd isn't much compensation when it's the wrong zone/keyword/symbol (I believe Combo is gonna incorporate symbols at some point).

That's my tupenny-piece on the matter.

There are pieces specifically designed to prevent it from every messing with your combo chain and that often help your chain out. Combo is great but if you were so worried about it interfering with your chain you should see what about face does.

As for naming a better foundation than BRT, I think that's a really loaded question. It really depends on what your deck is attempting to do, but honestly there are foundations that are way better in specific decks than BRT.

Amy's assistance is way better in hildie because it enables your kill, can commit problem assets (reanimated for instance), and can defend your low life totals.

Dead for One thousand Years, as it stands, can cancel the uncancelable.

Experienced Combatant can give your opponent a speed bump so prominent they will have to build for a turn. It also punishes players who go first, which is rare now.

Ways of Punishment is some decks win condition, without it they would not exist.

See it's all a matter of what your attempting to do. I often find my self hating, and i mean HATING, Amy's and Experienced more than I would ever even remotley care about BRT.

Tagrineth said:

I'm surprised nobody has accused grandmook of being me seeing as how he and I literally share the same views on BRT point-for-point...

...*sigh*

You're right Tag, BRT isn't a guarantee that it will fail anything, and it isn't guaranteed you'll draw into crap; there have surely been times in which they revealed a 1 (during Feline's days, which is now errata'd), a 2, and a 3, and then they draw that attack and check a foundation.

It's too bad the probability of that happening

IS

SLIM

TO

NONE

Feline is gone, so let's not even mention the possibility of revealing a game-winning attack with a 1 check, and then checking a foundation.

While Ira-Spinta is around, it's more often than not the ONLY 2-check in decks.

And of course, the most frequent control of an attack is 3.

However, as has already been pointed out by grandmook himself, revealing an attack is less than a 1 in 3 chance, and to reveal a foundation immediately after that is also chancey (let's not forget how people shuffle. When people collect their decks, often, strings of attacks are stuck together, and can lead to checking them in these circumstances).

But grandmook's "1 in 3" probability came from a deck running 20 attacks. Most do not. Although this game has changed, I'm sure this game will STILL consist of decks running a minimum of 12 attacks, max 16 (if even).

So, yes, BRT isn't an absolute guarantee, it isn't failsafe, and there will be times where you've just fed your opponent an attack. Of course, with most attacks rolling 3s, and most foundations rolling 5s, you've STILL made them check a 2, which they otherwise wouldn't have, all at the cost of turning BRT sideways.

Why is it's difficulty so high? Why does it have a block? Why does it roll a 4? Why does it not have a cost? Why can't it be limited to being used on foundations?

See, my biggest gripe falls between its discouragement of playing attacks, and its discouragement of blocking.

When it comes to attacks, it isn't quite the metakiller that was Bitter Rivals, but good luck pulling off a combo when you're checking 2s and 0s frequently. Good luck baiting blocks with weenies only to finish them off with that WOULD BE ryu's shin shoryuken. BRT simply gives way too large of a control hax, even if they DO draw an attack, check a foundation.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: Challenges Only is what CCHax needs to be. 5 difficulty foundation, blows itself up, and gives a guaranteed -4, an absolute blow to anything being played.

Get rid of this crap. We don't need a card that almost certainly pushes attacks through blocks, that basically discards your opponent's attacks while it replaces their attacks with foundations

and that's another thing fellas

FOUNDATIONS DON'T WIN GAMES; ATTACKS DO! BUT IF ALL YOUR ATTACKS GET BRT'D ON ALL OF YOUR TURNS, HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO WINNNNNNNN?!

So yeah

Broken card is broken. All this talk about "Well, now that Olcadan's is gone, MAC and Destiny will be mainboarded" is all hogwash.

People who are obsessed with MAC are still stuck in the Military Rank Alex days. M Rank is banned guys, and Alex isn't nearly what he used to be. Why? BECAUSE ALEX WAS ONLY TOP TIER DUE TO ACCESS TO ADDES SYNDICATE, REVITALIZE, MILITARY RANK, AND CONCEALED SHALLOW SWIPE, ALL 4 OF WHICH ARE BANNED!

MAC isn't a bad card, but it's got "debatable" symbols (at least, when used mono-symbol), it has no block, and no other effect (so it's a sideboard card, is what I'm saying).

As far as Destiny, Ayame's Scarf, Willful, or any other anti-hax, we've thankfully lost Forethought, but Anti K' will surely still see play, and will potentially see to it your anti-hax does not. Putting symbols aside, I don't think CCHax has a big enough presence in this game to truly MAINBOARD anti hax.

Yeah, BRT will still be ran in anything that can run it, but apart from that, and Akuma/Olexa decks, there really isn't much hackery going on.

Blah...I'm done.

Here's a suggestion. Let's make BRT unique . I don't even mind playing against Akuma since it can only happen once a turn and there's some sort of cost to it. One BRT is enough to annoy you, but when an opponent has 4 out?! Good luck playing anything that turn.

KawaiiMistress said:

If you've got a 6 HS, they'll either kill 4 cards, or stack the BRTs to kill one or two cards. Running a deck with only 8 attacks, I've been able to get through a 4BRT table, and still smash face. (without any anti-hax on the table, or Willful in my deck)

I wouldn't mind a deck listing on that, because I must admit that BRT is already enough of a pain in the ass on its own and knowing how you withstood four will probably be a good lesson in playing. Sincerely.

Nekuro said:

72 Card Sagat Deck. Attacks are Tiger Fury and High Plasma Beam. Mono Earth - not running Program Malfunction or Amy's Assistance because those are in Hilde. Uses Path of the Master + Huge Wrestling Army + Hulking Brute + Fantasy Shop to draw like a Mofo.

Battle Prowess / Altered Mind and Body help cover the vitality loss from the Fantasy Shop.

Holding Ground to reset damage / American Made to reset Speed.

Revenant's calling helps tap down the extra BRT's as well, so you don't actually have to work through all 4.

Spam out a crap-ton of foundations. Your opponent is forced to use 2 BRT's on a Tiger Fury or a High Plasma beam to force them to fail. If you decide to, commit to pass the High Plasma Beam because it'll feed it's E.

Also uses Dormant for a Million Years to be able to respond to stuff like Program Malfunction. The deck needs to be 72 cards, because it will go through the deck at the same pace as a 7HS 60 card deck.

Mmm... I think I know what cards I'll be buying next time I get a job

here is what you all you people need to do STOP COMPLAINING. here is a list of all the cards taht can stop brt

inhuman perception

charismatic

seal of cessaton

martial arts champion

ichi no tachi

ira spinta

heel snipe

knight breaker

end it all

clean freak

us air base (***** further use of other brts)

promo zi mei

manifest destiny

destiny

ayame's scarf

dead for one thousand years (deals with copies)

evil plans (on attacks only)

program malfunction

chinese boxing (on your attack only)

psycho style

akuma's first E or his R, either one works

there. those are 21 ways to stop a brt or hurt other brts that are already in play. they run a vareity of symbols and are mostly all easily accesible. so stop your bitching and get on with life. and remeber its only a game

This is one of thoes things that always bugs me. People are complaining that most decks dont run more than 8 attacks. People also complain that BRT is too good and will be in every top competitive deck ever. Yet there are some decks out there than can run more than 8 attacks, or at least more than 8 bad checks, and these are the decks that are best to fight BRT.

If you run a 70+ card deck with 10 attacks and BRT nails you, I say too bad, thats the risk you run to play a thick deck with too few attacks. I play akuma a lot. The deck is 59+character cards. My deck has at current count 13 twos and 4 fours, all of which this particular deck can consider a bad check. If my opponent plays a BRT as his first card, I wil not even attempt to hax it with Akuma. More often than not I'll save my hax for things like Natural leader, Standoff, Healer, or other win conditions my opponent may run. Why should I hax the card that at least has a chance of backfiring on someone when I can hax the card I know will be a problem 100% of the time for me. Also, and i know its been said before, I run counter hax. I play willful side deck. Not only can it provide me the NO I need to fight the occasional BRT, I've used its speed pump more than once now after an Ispin to push my meloncholic past Ichi and get my multiples off. +3 speed is not a small amount by any means.

BRT is the best at what it does. No one is going to argue that. I still dont think it should go. I also really feel that since the bannings already just happened maybe we should give it at least a few weeks of real play. After Gencon im not sure anyones even going to care anymore, because people may just start concentrating on the new block.

I run 15-20 twenty attacks sometimes and i still get owned by BRT. I think BRT hates me lol.

Protoaddict said:

I agree with this, and with your sentiment that there are 'better' foundations in different 'situations'. But, for all of the respect I have for you, you must admit BRT is the best foundation. Granted, even the ones that 'can' be better in different situations can be deterred from ever seeing play by a strong BRT/(hack mechanic deck). WHICH is why this mechanic is SO **** prevalent, it is the best mechanic in the game. Better than commit, better than remove, better than negate, hack is the ONLY mechanic that is proactive in nature and doesn't rely on something being 'in play' first to respond to.

Blood Runs True is not broken. It is the best foundation in the game. It, and other cards like it, define the top level of play (as mentioned above, this card alone can force your opponent to run MORE attacks and assume MORE risk, that is pretty strong).

The only thing 'broken' about BRT is the public acess to it, which in turn restricts the number of players that play competitively, but for business reasons may actually increase overall revenues (backwords...).

Also the name, it should be called Mentally Unstable, I mean, I hate Nako A LOT, but I actually feel sorry for her when I look at this card and think about the implications the name puts on her relationship with... herself???

- dut

I inherently dont agree that there is a single "best" foundation in the game. You need many foudnations in your deck and you need them for inherently different reasons. To say that any one is the best when they share 3 symbols out of 12 is a bit short sighted anyways. A lot of people said that the Owl was the best foundation control piece in the game, and since anyone could use it I would be inclined to agree. Not every symbol can run this foundation, so for thoes particular symbols there are other cards that are the "best" foundation for them to run.

Foundations are also only as strong as thier support. 2 BRTs in play is nice and can prevent you from playing lets say Ispin. But 1 BRT and a Red lotus can as well, and better. Hell 2 Red Lotuses in that situation may have been even more desirable since they cant fail on thier own to prevent your foundations from going away, BRT can.

Also consider that if a deck runs something like Ayame's Scarf for it's other applications main deck as thier win stratgey, they cant use BRT. Theres many reason this cannot be the "best" foundation.

Protoaddict said:

if it isn't the best, what is? i am not in favor of bannning it, i just think that right now BRT is the best foundation hands down.

Protoaddict said:

I'd rather have 2 BRT than 2 lotuses vs spinta... Granted a throw (ONCE PLAYED - key part here) does damage, and pumped I've been hit by spinta for more than 10 after blocking...

If you were to use your imagination, and force yourself to pick a 'best foundation', and base it on the sheer fact that it is the 'best' ability in the majority of situations (every situation involves playing cards, and BRT addresses the every situation) you would land on Blood Runs True.

If BRT had every symbol it would be in every deck. The benefit of having BRT in a deck far outweighs the benefit of playing Scarf, not to mention you can destroy it, or commit it, and would still play both if gaining momentum was 'your necessary win condition'.

I don't see any point arguing though, you seem to be unable to admit BRT is the best foundation and for whatever reasons, they still remain unknown, i.e. pointing out particular situations 'actually proves my point', BRT is good becuase 'in general' it's ability is applicable to EVERYTHING, or at the very least, more applicable than anything for the strength of it's ability.

That is okay with me, I will still expect to see you playing with BRT at Worlds in your Akuma OR whenever I am lucky enough to play you, if you didn't, I wouldn't be happy playing you, becuase we'd both be near the bottom of the list...

- dut

Very well then. I think Experienced Combatant for anyone who can use it to it's fullest is just as good if not better than BRT.

Both have effects that are versatile and can affect players over the course of both thier turn and thier opponents and vice versa. Both have counters in one way or another and counters are mostly viable.

BRT is better if you go first as you can press the advantage, while Experienced allows you to recover in a much bigger way turn 2.

BRT 'can' hax a card to prevent it's use, Exp can lock down 2 cards to prevent their use and prevent your opponent from safely playing attacks early game.

BRT can backfire on its own effect, Experienced cannot.

BRT draws you a card but draws your opponent a card as well, exp costs you 2 cards, but can help you cycle cards you dont want faster.

Both have blocks, brt's is numericaly better but experienced is mid and therefor can block any attack.

I can make this style comparison for any number of foundations. BRT is not the best foundation nor would i run it in any deck that could run it. There is no best foundation.

Protoaddict said:

BRT can hax expierienced.

trane said:

That. And...

Experienced can only be used in a deck that has a 7hs or a good deal of draw without having a huge drawback or backfire..., and really only in a deck with Order on the character... Making it's very strong ability less efficient and useful in not nearly as many situations as BRT... It can't be better.

Also, BRT has a smaller backfire than Experienced in most cases. If Experienced is negated... and yes, there is hidden R: negation (preventing), you lose 2 cards for notta.

Ultimately, Experienced can't do anything to attacks. And attacks win games in 80% of decks. So how can you compare something that can stop the winning of a game and one that can't?

- dut

KawaiiMistress said:

Just what cost does akuma have? The 4 CC? He can use it in both players turns in a row since turn 1, without replacing the card, and he still can use his E if you manage to play an attack. And it is a guaranteed -4, while BRT is a gamble.

Speaking of BRT, no matter how your deck is, with more or few bad checks. No matter what you do, statistically, on average when BRT is used you will check a 0. You have exactly the same chance to have an attack be revealed by BRT than using an attack as that check. This will only add some variance, as sometimes you will get a positive check, and some other times a negative. But on average, is's a 0, nill, nothing, nada.

BRT can be used to control the opponent, and then kill him by hacking a block. And to get extra cards on your opponent's turn. All that in a 2/5 with an awesome block.

BRT needs to be banned/errated (oh, and Akuma too) or at the very least be re-printed as a promo that everyone has access to. It's silly that it is a starter deck box-topper from a year and a half ago, and steve already said in the year state of the game it was a mistake to release such a powerful card like that.

I know there's answers to it, but this also happened to most of the banned cards and yet they were banned because they were stupid and bad for the game by themselves.

i would agree with dut, brt is the best foundation FOR THE SYMBOLS THAT IT HAS. i wouldnt say that its the best foundation in the game. for order, all, and evil it rocks the casba. in my book if there was a "best foundation in the game" it would have to meet certian criteria

1) it would need a symbol spread that covers at least half of the symbols in the game

2) would need to be accessible to the masses (like a box topper or something of the like)

3) have a ability that would benefit all of the symbols it sported

4) have a decent block, or ability that would make up for the lack of a block modifier

5) sport a diff of no more than 4, and a control of no less than 4

6) have a powerful ability that is balanced ( not like olcadans mentoring or chun li, thank god she is gone)

that would be the criteria that the best foudation in the game would have to meet, so far i havent found it yet, but ill keep looking

dutpotd said:

Exp can lock BRT. Touchée.

Your only going to put any given card in a deck where it makes sense. You wouldnt run EXP in a deck that couldnt support it, much as you wouldnt run BRT in a deck that ran scarf. So the fact that 7HSers are better to run it is moot, first of all because 7HSers are good and playable, second of all because the same logic applies to every card in the game.

Negating BRT costs nothing. Willfull discards and replaces itself. Challenge discards and draws you more than you lost. Destiny is free and automatic. Scarf is free and automatic. However to negate exp either requires a card from hand into the card pool (curse), card from hand and a committed foundation (Inhuman), or 1 commit instead of 2 (red lotus). Granted there are other examples going both ways but I will argue that the cost to cancel EXP is actually more than it is to cancel BRT more often than not.

Exp can also greatly affect attacks. While BRT can ultimatley make them fail, locking 2 foundations out can not only cause your opponent to fail the check by virtue of them not having enought foundations to commit, it can also take away abilities that the player would want to use on the attack.

Granted Exp is of a narrower scope as not as many characters can use it to it's fullest extent, but that's ultimatley irrelivant as we know neither of these foundations can be used by every character that would like to use them. Since they both share order, ill use that as my example. If I were to play order, I wouldn't lie and say I wouldnt take a set of BRT, but in all instances they would be sitting right next to my set of EXP. Neither is better than the other for that deck in my eyes, both having equaly important roles to play, not to mention the synergy they have with each other. So to my point, neither is better, as there really is no "Best" foundation.

Protoaddict said:

You are now already at the point of saying 'neither is better'. Being non-commital is a sign of insecurity in your opinion, we asked for a 'better' and you are full circle back to saying 'no, I can't'...

I can't say I'm surprised, one of the more vocal players on this board cites you as one of the few who can debate with him, and we all know what debating with said vocal player is like... I'm just being an ass here. So I apologize, the only reason I'd step in that direction is your initial reply to this thread, there was a well thought out argument posted by the OP and you ignored it rudely, at least I had the dignity to call it's bluff and list an alternate view. I also apologize becuase you have always had my respect on these boards (and you still do) and I know you are a great player, I just don't want to see you spin your wheels over a recent 'great deal of run' in with BRT counters.

Like I said, no point in arguing. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, you have your reasons for thinking BRT is not the best foundation in the game, but what those reasons are you are careful not to elaborate on. You'd rather point out specific situations where another card is more useful, which - as I have already concluded you are a veteran player - would be infinite.

And we obviously disagree on criteria. You are looking at it going, 'hmmm, in the perfect circumstance what is the most devastating card?'

The reason BRT is the best is that it is good in every circumstance (it can be if it is out first...), or at the very least more circumstances than all of the other 'strong ability' foundations. The cost is simple, just commit itself, the ability is devastating - draw card, fail or penalize the action of playing a card, see one of the remaining cards in opponents hand, good check, wicked difficulty for the effect, +1 high block, the list goes on and on.

I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that almost everyone and their dog will admit BRT is a 'better' foundation than Experienced Combatant. In fact, let us have one more person come on here and agree with you. In doing so, setting unbiased criteria on what would make the 'best' foundation and then, once a set of players agree on the criteria, apply it to these two cards...

Yeah, you'd have to set pretty narrow criteria to say BRT is worse than Exp Combatant, considering there is more utilized commit negation and off a popular symbol (lotus) than there is hack negation. This fact is why people call for banning, namely the answers to BRT aren't used that often, for many different good and bad reasons.

Antigoth said it, no one wants his scarfs? Why? Because the only good symbol on it, at least competitive symbol, in the recent past is evil, and any evil player would be stupid not to run BRT...

You can try again with a better foundation now that you have stated the inevitable 'neither', only short of admitting your first stab at finding a better was wrong.

- dut

You stated that BRT is "The Best Foundation". Singular. I have already pointed out that it is not as there are other foundations in this game that are at least tied with it, meaning it is not "The Best Foundation" but rather "One of the Best Foundations". Heres 2 other foundations that have won me more games than BRT could ever hope too.

The King of Fighters 2006 - I'm hard up to find a deck that dosent run these as of late. The card has numbers like BRT, with a worse block but in a better zone . The card has what amounts to 3 effects, as the first effect is add or remove. The card is versatile like BRT, as it can be used on the attack and the defense. It has massive synergies with the symbols it has, of which there are 4 so it can be used in more decks than BRT. It can function as a win condition or to remove it, and has a second effect most players arent even utilizing yet as there isnt a solid merge character, though I susupect we have to get one soon as it has been a while. The card is so pivitoal I've seen games where it came down who had more KOF2006 in play. Also BRT has a number of counters, this card has substantially less, and specifically less that see play because they lack other applications. Anti discard cant touch it, as it's not actually discarding a card, which inherently makes it better than most discard cards which can backfire.

This card has won me many games and by all the requirements you set is better that BRT. Yet I dont think it's the best foundation in the game, nor do I think it's truly even comparable to BRT, as they dont even share a symbol.

The Anti K - This card, which almost amounts to a action that you can just play as a foundation every so often, has won so many countless games before they even started I shutter to think about it. What it does is not even on the same plane as other foundations, as the very nature of how it's played is so different. It's a card that every so often will give you a FREE TURN with a cost that more often than not is a benefit to the person playing it. It dosent work every game, so it is not as reliable as something like BRT to do the thing it wants to do, though BRT can backfire as we have established, but when it does win it wins games. Can you compare these 2 cards? I would say no, since they are so drastically different, but are they both foundations? Yes. Which one is better then, is one of them The Best? It's an unfair judgement to make.