I started writing an article about them, but lost steam. I just don't have the enthusiasm for the game I did when working with BI.

I had an outline for a DH style game where Varyngr exploration forces would be sent to lost and overrun strong holds to attempt to reclaim some technology and/or retake the area. I thought the adventure angle would make it a lot of fun and allow it to slot into DH easily. Dead strongholds filled with tyranids and other alien usurpers. Very space hulk with a twist of varyngr. I may even finish writing it one day.

Hellebore

The squats are a totally lame race, and the 40k 'verse is better off without them.

Also, while I do believe GW is a particularly sinister and evil corporation, that thing about them silencing people who talk about the squats is quite simply untrue. Luddite's provided the link already, but there you go. The squat concept was simply horrible, and the designers saw no way to fix it, so quietly dropped it. FYI, there were also plans to create a Skaven mirror race in 40k, with Jes Goodwin designing them, but the concept was dropped.

Now, 2nd Ed 40k had a good deal of high camp and comedy in it,which provided ample room for the Squats to exist. Once 3rd ed rolled around, this was purged, with both positive and negative results. However, the entire squat race was lost at this point because there was simply no way to make them 'cool'. If you can think of a 40k race of dwarfs in space that gels with the other races, you're a better man than I. I've had dozens of ideas over the years, but they're either unintentionally funny, or fail to fit in with the 40k universe.

Why do people see GW as the problem, rather than the squats themselves? Frankly, while I do appreciate that great things were lost, I *like* the insanely grimdark, comedy-free, solemn reimagining of the 40k universe. The Necrons, Tau, and Sisters of Battle are all very late additions to the 40k 'verse, but at least they fit to some extent *glares at the Tau*. The squats? Good god, have you ever seen those models/art? Frankly, I'd rather they brought back the Necrons with horrible rectangular feet and pointy 1950's style rayguns than that hideous parody race.

Hellbore has shown a list of models (and some really good examples) of how much less serious and grimdark (and underdeveloped) a lot of the 40k concepts were in the early days. Where he and I seem to differ is that he views all of the early material with equal contempt, where as I do see great potential in those early 1st ed space marines etc. Less so in the Orks, but to be quite honest, I wouldn't care much if GW dropped the Ork race sometime in the near future, even in its current incarnation.

The ruinous powers forced me to double post. I'm sorry.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion given that in most fantasy settings the most technologically advanced race is the dwarfs. Thus, if orks and elves in space exist, dwarfs in space should have been their first. Do dwarfs just go extinct before they reach the space race or something?

Hellebore

Sisters of Battle a late addition? I have a second edition Codex that states otherwise. If a race does, in my opinion, NOT fit into the 40k universe it's the Tau. Seriously, it would take the Imperium about a decade to get the Conquest Army together, but they could crush those 12 planets in only several months (i don't have the codex at hand, but it ain't really more than that). No Warp means they are stuck to sub-light travel, limiting them to their tiny little corner, while the Imperial Fleet could undetected and unchallenged warp in directly above T'Au und blow the planet to bits, and get away before the Tau got a big enough strike fleet together to challenge them. Repeat said procedure on the other planets/space stations, and the rest is a rather easy clean up operation for the IG.

The Squats could have been made less comic-like, but still heavily depending on their machines. Standard Squats with bolter-like weapons and tough armour, lots of bikers and trikers for heavy support, and a whole load of wacky weapons for the really heavy support. Think of a mixture of SMurfs (just half the size) with heavy weapons/tanks like the IG. It could easily be done, but with no designated designer ...

What seems interesting to me is that recent GW fluff/background is NOT denying the existence of squats.

The most recent Ork Codex specifically mentions that Commissar Yarrick allied with "small abhumans" in trying to track down Ghakxgull, a reference to an epic game from WD 130-140 where Yarrick's Imperial Guard army fought alongside squats. This book is from 2008.

GW has never "officially" killed off the squats in-game. Yes, designers have indicated in an offhand manner that they don't intend to go anywhere with them or produce any new lists, and even JOKED about why they have vanished - but I very much doubt anyone can point me to a "canon" in-game 40k source where they are confirmed to have been wiped out.

Plus, am I alone in thinking that the new ratling miniatures look much more squattish that ratlingy?

Peacekeeper_b said:

Also IIRC the timeline for that doesn't quite match up as the Demiurg were around before the Squats were destroyed in the background so the remaining Squats would hardly have been able to flee and become the Demiurg.

Kaihik

segara82 said:

The Tau have FTL drives. They also have a very large fleet. They have (IIRC - I could be wrong) about 100 worlds. The Imperium could wipe them out, but doing so would be extremely costly, leaving them vulnerable in many other sectors. Remember, a typical sector battle fleet only has about 50 capital ships.

Squats could have been saved. But they felt that the work that had already been done on them had been counter-productive. Instead of working on a faction that was already on negative development points, they decided that if they wanted to work with the Dwarfs-in-space concept again they might as well start with a clean slate.

Hellebore said:

1. Dwarfs didn't exist on earth prior to the space age. There is no reason for them to be included in 40k except as an arbitrary parallel to fantasy, which ultimately holds both games back.

2. While the concept of elves in space works, dwarfs in space does not. The Eldar work because they were reimagined into a graceful, solemn, tragic race, devoid of humorous touches, and quite distinct from their fantasy counterparts (although their design aesthetic still borrows too much from fantasy elves).

3. Outside of slapstick comedy, no one has yet provided a "working" aesthetic or appeal for the squats. The very concept of space midgets is ridiculous. I would wager that it'd even gather ridicule in fantasy, were it not such a readily accepted fantasy staple.

When dwarfs appear in space, people sit up and take notice. The dwarf physiology is almost comical, preventing them from walking properly, and makes the idea of them locked in melee combat with any other race uncomfortably reminiscent of Yoda's battles in Star Wars. The Lord Of The Rings was very cleverly filmed so that it's never quite readily apparent how prepostrous Gimli fighting an opponent of human size or larger is. Their dwarfs. The very concept is a punchline, and it's only their enshrinement in fantasy lore that stops them being a joke in WFB. They don't have such protection in the 41st millenium, and will be judged on their own merits. Unfortunately, squats have been greeted by nothing but raucus laughter. The Tau could have been a credible attempt, were they made a little shorter and stumpier, but let's face it, then we'd be partaking in a little cheery light racism.

Locque said:

The very concept of space orks is ridiculous - see what I did there? I made a statement as fact and just as you, proved it to be true with no evidence. You have not provided an argument except from reductio ad absurdem as to WHY they are ridiculous making your argument based on a fallacy and of no real substance.

Or are you an advocate of the removal of dwarfs from fantasy as well? Which simply make you biased towards dwarfs in general and your whole argument pointless. You don't like dwarfs, whether they be fantasy or scifi is irrelevant so discussing either with you is pointless. There are many people who like fantasy dwarfs but don't like the squats, so obviously they weren't written properly. But as you simply don't like dwarfs in general, I am satisifed that there is no real challenge against the idea of dwarfs in space working.

Your argument for why the eldar work in space is because they were reimagined. Well, a reimagining is what is required of the dwarfs in space. You CANNOT support the idea that elves and orks in space can be reimagined to work, but dwarfs cannot. Because REIMAGINING is not quantifiable and thus you cannot claim a non quantifiable reimagining is impossible.

If for example we took a fantasy setting and fastforwarded it to a space age setting, you would have to artificially contrive the absence of the dwarfs as they would have been the first into space. Hence my argument earlier. Dwarfs have higher tech and so would reach space first. Thus, they WILL exist in a scifi setting. HOW they exist is another matter, one that is up to the designers ot create.

A couple of things dwarfs would be better at than humans in space:

Fighter pilot. Lower centre of gravity, but denser body. Less distance for blood to travel to the brain.

Zero G: For many of the same reasons.

High Grav: Dwarfs are built for carrying heavy loads. They are shorter than a human but wider and heavier than a human

The argument of lol space midgets is not an argument, it's a statement of opinion.

Would people laugh if the orks were marketed as the Space Turds? Would people call for their removal from the game entirely because they sound ridiculous? Probably, because people are shallow and 2 dimensional, basing their judgement on nothing more than cosmetic imagery.

Perhaps if you went and read the 2nd ed and 1st ed background for the squats you'll find it to be just as interesting and detailed, if not moreso, than other factions within 40k.

Hellebore

Locque said:

That's cold man, I didn't realise people were such heightests. The currently re-modelled ratlings snipers are going to be gunning for you now.

It's got nothing to do with them being short and there's plenty of pretence. Populations have had thousands of years in weird planets to mess up their physiology. How is a population that gets shorter on high gravity worlds any less plausable than space werewolves, psykers and three eyed void pilots.

Also pygmies, a population of short people on this planet so how is it ridiculous in space.

Just because they couldn't come up with a decent army doesn't mean the whole Idea was stupid. Also bearing in mind that it was an Imperial army and thus pretty much limited to what was already available made it a lot more difficult.

But back on topic, if people want to have them in games there's plenty of scope. The Calixsis sector isn't exactly close to the homeworlds but there's still plenty of room.

In fact the description of the population of the lathes pretty much says they are squats, although they won't be squats by culture, just looks.

Hellebore said:

Now now, there's no need to be like that. While I missed Rogue trader, I've been into 40k since early 2nd ed, and I instantly thought the squats stuck out the very second I saw them. Space Marine terminators look almost identical now to what they did back then, and there's a good reason for that, they're a great concept, and their design is so good we're willing to overlook certain impossibilities. I have supplied a reason as to why I think dwarfs are prepostrous, if you'd bothered to read my post properly. Given their physiology, the idea of them participating in combat falls somewhere between unintentional comedy and outright farce. Their legs are too stumpy to allow them to manouver, their reach is nil, and they have virtually zero agility. Is that enough? We already have a race that stands around shooting with 0 melee potential, they're called the Tau. (and as I pointed out earlier, the Tau were a missed opportunity to reimagine the squats)

I'm not saying the dwarfs in sapce concept *CANNOT* work (apologies if I actually used the word 'impossible' anywhere, don't think I did), just that I cannot actually conceive of even a good basis for where to begin, and I have devoted considerable time to the idea(ever since I heard of the Demiurg, I've been pondering "now how would *I* approach that?"). Of course, I can't claim a non quantifiable happening is impossible, but I can claim that space dwarfs is a concept no one has yet created a working concept for, and everyone seems pretty much stumped as to how to make it work, and for a long time now, making it very highly unlikely that anyone can come up with a way of making it fit.

However, I think you're being very childish and blind in your defence of the idea. "lol space dwarfs" *is* an argument, because so much of 40k is based around concepts and aesthetics, and space dwarfs evoke laughter and ridicule in the vast majority of people. Do you think anyone in 40k's love of the existing background is anything more than a statement of opinion? The masses think squats are stupid, and I agree with them. It doesn't make it an absolute truth, but it does mean that the background will be marred for a great many people with the existence of an (un)intentional comedy race. How about this? I think you're shallow and two dimensional, because you don't think the idea of a race made entirely of clones of Chandler Bing from Friends can work. I've read the Squat background (which is why, in an earlier post, I pointed out that dwarfs didn't originate on earth... well they did, but weren't squats until they reached space), so don't condescendingly presume I don't know what I'm talking about. Your entire argument is that dwarfs *can* work in space. I agree with you, but so far, the existing attempt- the squats- is stupid. You think otherwise, that's fine, but please don't go around telling me I'm shallow or childish because I disagree with you, it's beneath someone of your obvious intelligence.

Reinvented 40k has an aesthetic, and that is GrimDark. There isn't a place in there for a comedy race in the eyes of the majority. Bear in mind, the squats were regarded as an artistic failure by their own creators.

Edit: I actually can take or leave the orks in their current incarnation. Were we still being assailed by 2nd ed orks, I would say that the game would be richer without them too. They have moved the orks in a much more GrimDark direction and it works, but only to an extent. Perhaps the orks represent the threshold of how much humour "works" in the current 40k setting. To the creators at least, and to myself. And perhaps to the masses.

"That's cold man, I didn't realise people were such heightests. The currently re-modelled ratlings snipers are going to be gunning for you now.

It's got nothing to do with them being short and there's plenty of pretence. Populations have had thousands of years in weird planets to mess up their physiology. How is a population that gets shorter on high gravity worlds any less plausable than space werewolves, psykers and three eyed void pilots."

I'm not saying the existence of short people in space is less probable, but I am saying their combat performance on the battlefield is. If we assume that psykers and space midgets exist, the idea of abhumans who can explode tanks with their mind in battle is a lot more credible a battlefield presence than a disproportionate, clumsy midget.

"Also pygmies, a population of short people on this planet so how is it ridiculous in space."

Ah, the politically correct option. Except pygmies are proportionate and functional, unlike dwarfs, who'd have to plod everywhere, waddling like penguins. Also, dwarfs are, as far as I'm aware, shorter still than pygmies. Pygmies would represent space halflings more than anything else (which I could get behind).

"Just because they couldn't come up with a decent army doesn't mean the whole Idea was stupid. Also bearing in mind that it was an Imperial army and thus pretty much limited to what was already available made it a lot more difficult."

Right, I must have said it somewhere, so I'm officially redacting it. It is not impossible to come up with a good idea for anything, space dwarfs included. It is however so goddamn hard no one has ever done it. Bear in mind, what's good and what's not is entirely subjective, though there seem to be certain universal constants.

"But back on topic, if people want to have them in games there's plenty of scope. The Calixsis sector isn't exactly close to the homeworlds but there's still plenty of room."

In fact the description of the population of the lathes pretty much says they are squats, although they won't be squats by culture, just looks."

I really didn't pick up on this at all. Short people are not dwarfs. Dwarfs are proportionally different. Just because people are mechanically inclined and short does not mean OMG SQUATS, though it could very well represent a tip of the hat from the creators. I mean, does it say that lathe- people are less than 5 feet high? Because my impression was more like a population of people about the size of east asians.

I'm not saying the dwarfs in sapce concept *CANNOT* work (apologies if I actually used the word 'impossible' anywhere, don't think I did), just that I cannot actually conceive of even a good basis for where to begin, and I have devoted considerable time to the idea(ever since I heard of the Demiurg, I've been pondering "now how would *I* approach that?"). Of course, I can't claim a non quantifiable happening is impossible, but I can claim that space dwarfs is a concept no one has yet created a working concept for, and everyone seems pretty much stumped as to how to make it work, and for a long time now, making it very highly unlikely that anyone can come up with a way of making it fit.

My guess regarding the Demiurg is that they would be highly reliant on technology. You wouldn't see a Demiurg footsoldier waddling around the battlefield, instead they would always be in some kind of vehicle or battlesuit. We already know they are masters of Ion tech, so I think they would be a ranged army. I'm guessing slow, heavily armoured battlesuits/battlepods, bristling with heavy weaponry. Useless in melee, but hard to crack and dish out death.

Locque, dwarfs in space work no differently to dwarfs in fantasy. Dwarfs in fantasy are not commical, they do not fight in funny ways. There is an entire novel series about a dwarf and how badass he is. His name is Gotrek Gurnisson.

Your argument doesn't work unless you assume that ALL dwarfs in ALL incarnations follow this:
"Given their physiology, the idea of them participating in combat falls somewhere between unintentional comedy and outright farce. Their legs are too stumpy to allow them to manouver, their reach is nil, and they have virtually zero agility. Is that enough? We already have a race that stands around shooting with 0 melee potential, they're called the Tau. (and as I pointed out earlier, the Tau were a missed opportunity to reimagine the squats)"

Yet dwarfs in Warhammer fantasy are one of the most popular tabletop armies and are accorded a great deal of respect in their setting. They defeated the elven race in the war of vengeance and drove them from the old world. They are massively strong and tough and are some of the best fighters in the world. There is nothing stupid or funny about them. They routinely slaughter orcs and goblins, route armies and defeat their champions in single combat. How is it then that they somehow turn 'stupid' when replacing their handguns and crossbows with lasguns and bolters? It's the same race carrying different weapons. Nothing has changed. And considering 40k is really a fantasy in space they are no more ridiculous than any other fantasy concept in space. The parameters are not different, so there is no objective reason for anything else to be different.

Take Warhammer fantasy and give the factions galactic empires, space ships and advanced technology and the dwarfs are still not commical or stupid.

You can take the stance they are stupid because they are as opinion, but it won't convince anyone it's anything more than opinion. Unless you can provide objective evidence, it simply looks like an opinion of someone who just doesn't like something. You can't provide evidence that they are inherently unworkable, which is the whole argument. That the squats in toto and objectively are not a functional part of 40k. Instead you've got 'I think squats are stupid' which is no basis for objective discussion.

So, before we debate any further, do you dislike Warhammer Fantasy Battles Dwarfs? Because if you do and thus dislike the dwarfen archetype in general, there is no point in continuing discussion. You would dislike dwarfs whether they were in Vampire the masquerade, Discworld, Jules Vern or whatever.
Thus it would not be the squats per se that you do not like, but dwarfs in particular. Considering your statements that they waddle like penguins and other derrogatory remarks designed to ridicule dwarfs to make your argument sound better, I would say that you probably don't like dwarfs.
Which means I have to fight an argument on two fronts, one to prove that dwarfs are fine and two that dwarfs in SPACE are fine.

Edit: I actually can take or leave the orks in their current incarnation. Were we still being assailed by 2nd ed orks, I would say that the game would be richer without them too. They have moved the orks in a much more GrimDark direction and it works, but only to an extent. Perhaps the orks represent the threshold of how much humour "works" in the current 40k setting. To the creators at least, and to myself. And perhaps to the masses.

As I've said many times, the squats never even got ONE makeover, let alone the many each army has had since they all appeared in 1st ed. So if the squats were 'moved into a much more grimdark direction and it works' then there would be no problem with them existing in 40k, just as the orks went (for you) from crappy to something that's ok.

So assuming you will concede that dwarfs as a concept are fine, let's go sift through the original background of the squats and create a 'grimdark' 5th ed 40k squat race:
For a start, let’s call them Dwarger or something. As soon as you remove the stupid name, they start looking less stupid already.
Human colonists that fortified and mined the core worlds. They evolved to suit the heavy gravity of the core worlds (perhaps even with some genetic engineering thrown in) and are generally a head shorter but far more massive than a normal human. Their physiology is extremely robust and with shoulders twice the width of a man’s they can carry heavy loads and fight for days without rest. To live on the inhospitable planets they inhabit the dwarger are resistant to famine and thirst and their musculature is extraordinarily dense.

The dwarger were the only bastion of sanity during the age of strife. Without the crazed psyker plague that swept the human worlds, they continued on, protected within their fortress of the core. They brought with them the STC and improved and modified it, reaching technological heights not seen since the Dark Age of Technology.

Perhaps because of some quirk in their genetics or deliberate tampering the psyker genes were dormant amongst the majority of their population. Only some Dwarger after a certain age would rise as a Living Ancestor with the power to command the warp. Because they had lived a full life before attaining this power, developing their discipline and strength of will, these Living Ancestors were not afflicted by the inherent dangers posed by the warp. They provided sound council for the Dwarger people and potent magicks on the battlefield.

By the time of the great crusade the Dwarger had been changed by their environment to a degree that made them almost alien to the humans around them yet with some distantly remembered bond of blood.

Their physiology granted them long life and their society praised honour, skill and wealth above all things. The eldest of their kind were venerated above all others as they had reached a point where they possessed all 3 of the desired traits in abundance. Thus the dwarger venerated their ancestors and swore oaths upon them.

The families and clans of the dwarger built mighty edifices from the bedrock of their world to protect the marches of the core. Entire planets were turned into monolithic strongholds protected by walls kilometres thick and defence lasers in the hundreds.

Within the dwarger people were brotherhoods of warriors drawn from all the clans each sworn by blood geld to protect their people from harm. At the forefront of the brotherhoods were the Hearthguard, the chosen champions of the planetary thane. Each was equipped with exo armour, mighty suits of powered armour utilising techniques and methods only known to the Dwarger Engineer’s Guild and built with materials unique to the exotic worlds of the galactic core.

When the Dwarger go to war they bring potent weapons that hurl massive projectiles at the enemy and march forward with relentless determination. Each is a link in the adamantium chain of their people and by oath, hold and blood they will never break.
In melee they lay about with heavy axes and blades, thrilling in the art of death. With a lifespan measured in centuries a single Dwarger warrior can master his art forms in a way no human could dream, save the mighty astartes themselves.

Ok, so as an extremely rough outline here we have a race that exhibits all the characteristics of the archetypal dwarf but more importantly uses pretty much nothing but the background written for the squats in 1st and 2nd ed of 40k.
All that changed is the manner of the telling and the emphasis on some things over others.

This is even less of a drastic modification to the background than the orks suffered. Does it sound grimdark? Does it sound like these dwergar are stupid, comical or dumb? If so, why?

My suspicions are that you don’t like dwarfs in general, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt. Dwarfs in space are no different to dwarfs in fantasy. They don’t became dumb with the exchange their axes for chainaxes or their handguns for bolters. Nothing changes conceptually about them, so what makes them dumb?

EDIT: Here are some pictures of the current warhammer fantasy dwarfs:

The first Warhammer Online cinematic, showing a trollslayer fight a black orc

Dwarfen iron breaker

www.tentonhammer.com/image/view/43136

Ungrim Ironfist

www.tentonhammer.com/system/files/images/Dwarf_NPC_SLAYERKING_UNGRIM.jpg

Alric Ranulfson

www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp

Now, could you explain exactly how these guys carrying lasguns goes from badass to ridiculous?

Hellebore

Locque said:

From a fantasy perspective, Halflings are typically shorter than Dwarfs. In Warhammer (being the closest point of comparison to the 40k universe given their shared origins), the average Dwarf ranges from 4'4" to 5'2", though proportionately broader and more muscular than humans, while Halflings are about a foot shorter still.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I never once mentioned height, I mentioned proportionality.

The dwarfen physique is actually very similar to the orkish one. Wide shoulders, long arms, short legs. Dwarfs carry their head ontop of their shoulders instead of in front of it (one assumes the ork foramen magnum is at the rear of the skull like most primates) though.

Physically I liken the dwarfs in WFB to 'human orcs' because the possess all the same traits except size.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Because it doesn't go nearly far enough.

And before you ask, yes, I like WF Dwarfs. They are one of my favourite factions. But taking them direct from the fantasy setting, giving them guns, chainaxes and bikes and slightly changing their name isn't good enough. Yes, plenty of people find them comical. But, more than that, you have to ask yourself why? Why bother to do this? Only a tiny minority of people (yourself included) actually like this idea.

Orks were changed dramatically so that they were no longer tolkien orcs in space. They became an alien race. The Eldar were changed so that they were no longer fae-in-space. The faction you described in your last post is more like the traditional dwarven archetype, not less.

GW saw no artistic merit in this aproach and I can't blame them. It just isn't very interesting.

Orcs in warhammer fantasy are space fungus too you know.

The Eldar worship the same gods the Elves worship. They use the same material shaping technology the elves do (the elves make their ships and homes by singing the materials together, usually trees). They are even a dying race just like the elves.

The differences between the eldar and the elves are:

Technology obviously

One created slannesh the other didn't

The 'dying race' concept happened when one created slannesh and the other split with the dark elves (although the creation of slannesh also split the eldar from the dark eldar)

The warhammer elves are only discussed in terms of their existence in the warhammer world, whilst the eldar are discussed in terms of the whole galaxy

One has a sedentary home the other is scattered (although ironically both the dark eldar and the exodites have sedentary homes - only the high elf equivalent is homeless...)

Khaine chose an avatar in flesh to wield his power and isn't split for the elves

EDIT: The craftworld eldar actually have a system not too dissimilar to the dark elf black arks. Those are the size of islands and powered by magic (warp energy) and carry entire populations of drucchi. Of course, they are used for different reasons.

The eldar are only obviously different from warhammer elves in their military forces, ie aspect warriors. But that is a very cosmetic concept. Their core being, their innate magical nature, their ability to perfect their pursuits, all these are still present in both races. You could argue that the empire's core troops are pretty similar to the imperial guard and haven't really changed much (cheap in large formations, the basic infantry unit in the world).

In warhammer fantasy the different races are completely seperate from each other. In 40k the eldar are seperate from humanity. However, in a twist of story the 'dwarfs' are RELATED to humans, and were once human themselves. They also have PSYKERS. These are fundamental differences to the Warhammer Dwarf and you say it didn't go far enough? If we went 'that far' with the eldar they would be abhumans with a tiny psychic potential, making them radically different from elves and also, strangely enough, radically different from the eldar we know today.

Now I'm not saying that what I wrote was perfect, what I AM saying is that you give the other 'fantasy' races in 40k too much credit in originality when compared to their fantasy counterparts and not enough to the squats. The squat background is far less like the dwarf background than the eldar background is like the elven background. The most important aspect being that the squat background, when you go back far enough, merges with humanity's background. The emperor is their emperor too. They aren't an elder race like the eldar, humanity is older than the squats.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Hellebore said:

I hope this has gone some way towards clarifying my position than previous attempts. Dwarfs in fantasy have a huge amount of respect and are pre established before they even begin. If you ask a fantasy buff who has no warhammer knowledge whatsoever about dwarfs, they will likely turn up something frighteningly similar to what the current incarnation of fantasy dwarfs look like. In space, they have no such preconceptions to work with, and live or die on their own merits. Fantasy Battle is a good example of High Fantasy, there's much less moral ambiguity and much more harmony between the races. 40k is a different beast, something altogether darker.

Hellebore said:

I didn't say that Eldar and Orks weren't different from Warhammer Elves and Orcs. I said they were different from Tolkien (as in fantasy-standard) Elves and Orcs. The Eldar and a cold, ruthless, truly alien race with a detailed culture that differs greatly from the tree-hugging standard of most fantasy settings. The orks are a genetically engineered bio-weapon with a psychic meta-mind. The fact that the 40k concepts of these races proved interesting enough that GW decided to have them also apply to the fantasy setting indicates how much they like them.

The sci-fi Dwarven race you described aren't different. They are literally Dwarves-in-space, Gimli taken from LotR and given powerarmour and a bolter. There isn't anything particularly intereting or unique about them. Again, I ask you, why bother? GW didn't see any merit in the idea. They decided that if they wanted to do a sci-fi dwarven faction, they'd prefer to start from scratch, with a new race that they mould as they saw fit without any previous history to limit their development.

If we take halflings, and put them in space, I think we find a more workable idea. Incredibly good shots, small, agile... Ratlings without tails, perhaps. (what's that you say? New ratling models?)

At least no one expects them to be melee powerhouses.

So your dislike of the squats is mainly down to the poor illustrations and models? This is what I've been saying from the first post hence why I linked all the models from RT, to show that ALL the models back then were pretty poor (personally I think the womble headed space marine on the scooter looks about as stupid as you can get). The squats as a concept was not bad, it was the cosmetic imagery that was. But GW never improved on that. My point was that if they had advanced the imagery of the squats with all the other races in 40k at the same rate, then a current squat army would be just as good as the others appearancewise.

I mean imagine if all the armies of 40k had stayed the way they were illustrated in 1987:

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/destructomuncher/RTspacemarines.jpg

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/destructomuncher/all.jpg

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/destructomuncher/eldar.jpg

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/destructomuncher/all2.jpg

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b246/destructomuncher/guard.jpg

Here is a thread started to redesign the squat imagery in a way that would make them more appealing:

www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php

There are many different designs in there that are nothing like the comical appearance of the squats in 1st and 2nd ed (which was on par with the orks of the time and almost everyone else).

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Here's where we differ. The archaic space marine and eldar designs, while horrible, do show a potential that I don't see in the squats at all. That imperial guard illustration is disgusting, though, and really bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the guard as they are today. If you were to change the squats as radically as the guard evolved from that illustration, they would essentially have nothing whatsoever to do with the fantasy dwarfs, apart from their physiology (which, as I've explained, is a handicap if they're to have melee potential), unless some uber talented creative genius can think of weapons or gear which would make this possible. A direct translation of dwarfs into a space setting is not only lazy, it's not doing it for the vast majority of gamers and others who appreciate the 40k universe.

Hellebore said:

Having perused this a little more, it only serves to reinforce how incredibly difficult the task is. not one of the ideas in that thread (admittedly not looked at everything yet) actually works. Sure there are some great ideas there, but none of them have got it quite right. I found it interesting that this comment popped up:

"Just to throw in a quick comment. The one thing that immediately struck me seeing your concepts Easy E is just how un-dwarf-like they are. I think you really have to get back to the comical physique of the dwarves/squats in order to retain their identity as more than just bearded sci-fi men of which there are more than a few.

Dont take this the wrong way but bringing back the bulging guts, the thick arms and the almost non-existant legs is one of the things that imho needs to happen."

There is perhaps a danger in radical reinvention, when the only thing tying this new race to dwarfs is their height.

Here lies the crux. Being short is, in many ways, a handicap, especially when combined with the proportions dwarfs are traditionally assigned. The challenge for a designer lies in turning that handicap into a strength, or finding a way for the race to circumvent or compensate for the aforementioned handicap.