As I'm browsing through Wikipedia trying to obtain more information I cam across something that, in all honesty, I did not expect to find.

Eldar are the 40k equivalent of Elves, Orks for Orcs, but Squats for Dwarves? Reading the Article it says that the Squats were discontinued and written off as being destroyed by Tyrannids but when I saw it it made me think of the description the Core Rule Book mentions about the Lathes (being a high gravity world in all with rather stocky individuals).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squats_(Warhammer_40,000 )

I'm pretty sure peopel who have or followed the original table top games would already know about them but just imagine how interesting it would be to introduce them into the game even allowing the PCs to be "stuntys" if they are so inclined.

Thoughts?

The Squats seem to be hovering around a possible reintroduction as the Demiurg, although these seem to be a different race that employs the 'dwarf concept' rather than a continuation of the squats.

As for the squats, while their homeworlds in the galactic core were munched by the 'nids, for sure not all the squats were killed, so if you want to include them in your Dark Heresy campaign, go for it!

One thought, try lexicanum for more warhammer information. http://www.lexicanum.com/

Otherwise, I don't know much about squats.

Whilst the Squats were deleted as an army option in 40 due to the fact that the staff couldnt do anything New with them and the Bikers Vikings From Mars was tedious, they Were kept in the Epic game as on such a scale they then excelled when it came to Vehicles and the like. Small they may have been, but their warmachines put the rest of the Imperium to shame.

Imagine what the Ad-Mech would have been like if it wasnt a relgion, they'd have been the equal of the Squats when it comes to technology.

But they couldstill be played witht he models and in any newer rules sets just use the Imperial Guard stats.

NOOOOOOOO! You said the "S" word. Better hope GW doesn't snoop around here, they are notorious for viciously purging any reference to the little devils.

I would agree with Luddite that the famed "S-people" aren't likely to officially come back to the warhammer universe as the same race, the concept of people of similar stature aren't unreasonable. Honestly, I think GW just doesn't like the way their background meshed with the 40k background. They were much more pro-technology and tinkering 'for the common man'. While the 40k universe for the Imperium (which the S-people were closely allied with) is very much in keeping of technology as more of a religion and susperstition (barring secret knowledge of the AMs). So it made it more difficult to keep the gritty, high tech low-knowledge, secretive feeling of 40k. So, rather than deal with it they got rid of them as the easier choice. (They probably also didn't sell as many miniatures at the time, too). My opinion, anyway.

dvang: the reason the Squats never saw an own Codex was that the designer for them left GW. No one else wanted to do them, and they were not too happy with them. Anybody still holding on to his old Rogue Trader books (WH40k 1st Ed) ? Back then the WHF-Planet was considered one of the planets separated from the universe by warpstorm.

GW itself has screwed the 'fluff' several times themselves, it's sad. and with every new edition it gets worse. Thats my opinion.

Hah!

Last game, I PC's made it to the Lathes on a mission and when they weren't planet-side on Hedd, I described the mass amounts of short compact servitors they saw shuffling about in the oddly fluctuating gravity and one of my players shouted out "Oh my god! That's what really happened to the Squats! The Mechanicus turned them all into servitors for tech-heresy!"

As the squats go, i keep flirting with them in an odd way. I like dwarfs (as in little people, not short hairy guys with battle axes) like David Lynch likes dwarfs. As such, i tend to bring in short stunted folks, some afflicted with one of the various kinds of dwarfism and others simply hailing for hig-gee worlds. Each and every time, one of my players always has to "point" at the NPC and shout "OMG, squat!" In short (hehehehe) it's quite easy to have dwarfs in your game (folks form high-gee worlds, mutants suffering from some form of dwarfism, etc) and if you make them mechanically inclined, bonus points for making a small squat reference.

As for the actual died in wool squats from 1st ed, I don't blame GW for axing them. They presented a lot of logical problems for the setting and added nothing. They seemed way too independent for being an off-shot of human evolution with far too many ties to their fantasy roots that couldn't hold enough water in the way the 40k universe was evolving. I mean, what the heck part of humans evolving into them on high-ghee hostile worlds would result in incredibly extended life spans (aside from technological/genetic tinkering)? That plus the tech-clash with the ad-mech while still having them as a part of the Imperium just doesn't work. Why can they still pursue tech the way they do but no one else can? There were simply too many logic holes with the way they were handled and they gave very little back to the setting to warrant the the holes.

having squat like folks that come from high-gee worlds but without the high-fantasy dwarven trappings (like long life and crazy tech... why dose it seem that everything in high fantasy live hundreds upon hundreds of years anyway?) works a bit better in the setting. Hell, those forge-worlders from the Lathes could be pretty much built up as modern DH squats if you think about it. They'd be good with tech (they come from a forge world and if they were a tech-priest to boot, well...), Ad-Mech technology still varies depending on the sect... perhaps there's one in the Lathes which can build technological items similar in feel and application as the old Squat tech, and they, as all worlds in the Imperium, very well could have their own culture centered around mining and forging things with some heavy drinking here and there, an unnatural love of facial hair, and a whole ancestor worship thing on top of that and, presto, DH squats!

ah the Squat Conspiracy raises its little big head again.

i've heard all kinds of storis as to the demise of the Squats and GW rather ridiculous purging of them. the Squats were rather popular after all these years ppl always bring them up in many a 40K discussion. tough lil buggers. as to the real reason why they were killed..i sure as heck don't know. the one i was told was that they 'didn;t want to have dwarves in space as the dwarves were a fantasy concept' which if anyone in GW actually uttered such a thing..they should have been shot, IMO. we have space elve, space undead, space knights, the mention of space Skaven (Hrud), space orcs... but as i said who knows...

the idea of them being Demiurg is the new way of things. which i laugh at that one also. at the end of the day...Squats..anyone who knows of the squats and still continues to play identify them as such so i have no idea what GW is playing at.

@dvang and segara82...i agree with the both of u...they complicated the 40K setting due to their pro-tech and rather blasphemous stance. and i loved them for it. plus they were hard little bastards what with their psychic Ancestors and assault trikes.

i'm also of the opinion that as time has worn on GW has screwed the fluff more and more.

@graver..the Squats were handed well in Rogue Trader 40K well enough. that book was very light on the ideas of tech heresy and more focused on technology in a more advanced light. many of the pictures and artwork was more in line with 'standard' space opera. when 2nd ed hit..we started to see a stronger building of the 40K tech heresy fluff. even then though, i still think they fit in well.

in DH though..they are perfect. one of my PCs is a Squat..and the arguments between him and the Tech Priest are priceless blasphemies.

there is a Squat featured rather extensively as part of an Inquisitors warband in Ian Watsons Inquisitor Wars. and if anyone is interested i have an old PDF with them heavily featured.

well this is refreshing, someone normally pops up to say "teh squats r dead!!" or something to that effect.

They keep cropping up in the background (albeit euphemistically), so they can't be completely wiped out. For a start, you can't destroy a Spacefaring race by destroying their homeworld/s, that's just stupid. Jervis wrote an article for the Citadel Journal just after 3rd edition came out mentioning how the surviving Squats were either integrated into the Imperium after their homeworlds fell, or fragmented off into piratical warbands, so that's how I'd go with them.

I'm an atheist, sometimes antisocial and kind of hairy engineer. The ugly little bastards aren't going out of my 40k universe without some kind of resounding bang, if the 'Aliens wannabes' turn up, they'll find some kind of way of blowing them up... just like any other bastard that gets on their case. Got one as an NPC in my games who has a fairly powerful friend in the imperium's political structure that occassionally turns up and tells the acolyte PCs 'how stuff works', steal a vehicle for them once in awhile and just to see how many times I can get the Ad-Mech going

Oh man, I'm pretty sure kill teams are being sent to each one of you for this discussion.

Anyway, Regardless of the reason why they where erased from history, I am pretty sure the only reason people still bring them up in discussions is that GW specifically tries not to talk about them. Pretty much they are the psycho relative everyone loves to not talk about yet still gets a mention when people are bored.

I guess the Chaos dwarves need to be mentioned around here too...

Never ceases to amaze me that the 'conspiracy theories' or other thoughts on why the little beard-wearers 'bought the farm' still proliferate. Jervis Johnson has made it very clear why the Squats were dropped (back in 2004). To paraphrase;

1. The designers felt that they didn't do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in 40K, and that the Squats had become a bit of a joke race.
2. The Squat design in 40k and Epic were different and prevented a cohosive vision of the little fellers.
3. Despite the efforts of the design team, they were unable to think up ways to revitalize the concept.

Jervis Johnson also confirmed that the Demiurg began as an effort to re-think the concept of Squats and that the concept might one day be expanded on.

Jervis's full response he gave can be found here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40899

The squats are sort of mentioned again in the Ravenor books, but almost as a joke.

If you want them in your games, it would be easy enough to have a hidden colony of refugees or a small band of squat pirates. Or even just an individual squat, one of the last survivors of his race. Shamed by his suvival when the rest of his race died, he has taken the oath of the Killer. Shaving off a thick strip of hair from the centre of his head, the rest he dyes purple. He dedicates his life to surviving as long as possible, so that he may kill as many of his race's enemies as possible through the use of cunning and deceit.

I always liked the theory that once destroyed, the Imperium turned their back on them (most of them), some found their way as nomads, pirates and explorers, some forced to underhives, others left the imperium in search of their ancestors, while those who were very unlucky became the victims of the Ad-Mechs final revenge for tech heresy.

Then some, the lucky ones, were embraced and taken in by the Tau.

It takes very little reading in tyranid background to understand just how ridiculous and full of holes a tyranid hive fleet invading a universally biospherically barren segment of space is. The tyranids would have died out before they got half way across the core. They would have had a better time jumping a few hundred lightyears out of the core into imperial space where the planets actually have atmospheres, biospheres, and hydrospheres instead of barren rock deserts.

@Graver, the logical problems you cite aren't just solvable with complete amputation you know. Space marines used to look like glam rockers and heavy metal fans but they weren't axed as a solution to fix that were they? There are many small alterations to background that could have been made to retain the squats without the problems you cite. For instance, why is it a certainty that the Imperium found the squats in the first place? There are thousands of human worlds in the galaxy the crusades never discovered, and the Core is a barren wasteland of planets, black holes, and dying stars. They could have easily said it was navigably impossible, or that they didn't think anything could live there.

The Imperium left the Adeptus Mechanicus as effectively an empire within an empire, so there is precedent the squats could have been left the same. Afterall, they fill a fairly small part of the galaxy and are completely segregated from the rest of the Imperium. Unlike the admech that is completely imbedded within it. Also, they had already adapted to the Core worlds and built the infrastructure necessary, it would have been easier to treat them like any other imperial system, tithe them and leave them alone.

The simple fact is that GW was uninterested in running with them. They survived their 40k TT incarnation as an EPIC army for years though.

If they could fix the elves in space and orks in space to be more interesting than they were originally - the green marsupial comdians to the fungal alien monstrosities with lashings of dark humour or the wierd space pirate hair metal freaks to the virtually extinct highly advanced and amazingly skilled alien samurai.

There is not a part of the background that hasn't had some changes in the last 25 years, some of it rewritten completely, without it being dropped altogether. Thus any argument that the squats were intrinsically unworkable is complete crap and just buys into GW's own propaganda. If there had been a will, there would have been a way. That there wasn't only proves GW had no will, nothing more.

Hellebore

In my oldest Codes IG (2nd Ed) is still an entry for the Squats. They could be taken as Allies, but the Codex 'is still in developement'.

I agree to Hellebores statement: if they wanted, they could have made them a really unique army, not just Spacedwarfs.

segara82 said:

The operative part of the sentence, emphasis mine, there. From Jervis Johnson's explanation, that was the problem - nobody in the Studio could summon up the desire or inspiration to do anything worthwhile with the Squats - leaving a choice of either something uninspired and lacklustre born of being forced to do something you can't really get interested in, or not doing anything. With the latter comes the equally awkward choice of 'leave it, just don't mention it again' and 'do something final that tells everyone that we're not going back to the idea'.

It has exactly nothing to do with whether any of you find them interesting or exciting or worthy of further development, as you (nor I, nor as far as I can tell was anyone else amongst those present on this forum) weren't working in the design studio when year after year passed of nobody wanting to do anything with an army that essentially consisted of bearded midget space miners with a penchant for motorcycles.

@Hellebore, no I don't believe there's more then one way to fix a problem and, in fact, amputation is the only viable method of fixing any problem. World hunger? Get rid of everybody then one will be around to be hungry -perfect fix. Teen pregnancy? Get rid of everyone under the age of 20! No more teen pregnancies, problem fixed! Slept through your alarm and and now you're late for work? Quit your job and you won't be late ever again! Got a paper-cut? Cut that arm off and not only will you not feel that nasty paper-cut anymore, but you'll never get another on that finger! Is there no problem absolute amputation wont fix?

Seriously, though, yes, I do know there is always more then one solution to any problem. They chose the ax solution and it did work. Since it's one solution that, in the end, fixed problems that I outlined, as i said, I can't blame them for axing the squats. If they had done something else to fix the squat problem, I wouldn't have blamed them for that course of action either but I can't not blame them for a solution they didn't implement, only the one they did ;-)

Hellebore said:

You're right, although I don't recall ever seeing mention of the Squats being destroyed by Tyranids in an official book. AFAIK It was an off-the-cuff remark by Jervis that has been repeated to the point where people think it's canon.

If the Squats truly need an explanation for being written out, an invasion by Orks or Necrons (my preference) make much more sense. I don't think GW wants that. I think they want what they've got - Squats never existed in the first place.

It takes very little reading in tyranid background to understand just how ridiculous and full of holes a tyranid hive fleet invading a universally biospherically barren segment of space is. The tyranids would have died out before they got half way across the core. They would have had a better time jumping a few hundred lightyears out of the core into imperial space where the planets actually have atmospheres, biospheres, and hydrospheres instead of barren rock deserts.

Why would they have "died out"? Don't they hibernate most of the time while traveling long distances? The core worlds held potentially valuable bio-genetic data (the squats), why wouldn't the 'nids attack them?

The simple fact is that GW was uninterested in running with them. They survived their 40k TT incarnation as an EPIC army for years though.

If they could fix the elves in space and orks in space to be more interesting than they were originally - the green marsupial comdians to the fungal alien monstrosities with lashings of dark humour or the wierd space pirate hair metal freaks to the virtually extinct highly advanced and amazingly skilled alien samurai.

There is not a part of the background that hasn't had some changes in the last 25 years, some of it rewritten completely, without it being dropped altogether. Thus any argument that the squats were intrinsically unworkable is complete crap and just buys into GW's own propaganda. If there had been a will, there would have been a way. That there wasn't only proves GW had no will, nothing more.

It wasn't just that GW was uninterested in them (though that was part of it) - it was the fact that they had written themselves into a corner with the squats.

To start with, they called them squats. Squats. Whoever suggested that name should have been taken out and shot.

Secondly, there was the stumpy space hells-angels look.

Third, there was the problem of turning the epic army into a tabletop army, which was surprisingly problematic (the epic army focused on superheavy tanks like the landtrain, which were too large for 40k).

Fourth, they were called squats. I know I already mentioned that, but I think it's worth repeating.

Basically, by the time they got around to considering taking another look at them, it was too late. The squats were a joke army and they couldn't think of a way to change that without completely rewriting them. Other armies they felt could be re-imagined into something worthwhile, but squats.

Seriously. Squats.

Easier to just kill them off and come back to the concept of "Dwarves in Space" with a xenos race later if they wanted.

Why would they have "died out"? Don't they hibernate most of the time while traveling long distances? The core worlds held potentially valuable bio-genetic data (the squats), why wouldn't the 'nids attack them?

Because a nid attack consumes ALL resources, not just the genetics of the sentient population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology )

Squats would have been a tiny tiny tiny tiny amount of biomass, an unsustainably tiny amount. When plants in the Ultima Segmentum have their oceans drained and their atmospheres sucked up, it's obvious that the tyranids aren't just there to eat genes. Considering the background said that the core planets were without fail barren rocks with no life, there is no way that the tyranids could have sustained a corewide invasion. Because we are talking about the extinction of an empire that was spread throughout the core. By their own background the tyranids can A)detect biomass from a distance B)attack planets rich in life, not pauce in it. Thus, considering the imperial maps have well known planets with a higher diversity of life, atmosphere and hydrosphere available within jumping distance of the core, there was no reason for the tyranids to be there.

Also, it attempts to convince us that planets designed like the Fang on Fenris all 100% fell to tyranid invasions. A race that was better at defence than any other. The tyranids would have died of attrition long before they killed the entire squat race.

No, it's an overly simple answer with no basis in the 40k universe.

It wasn't just that GW was uninterested in them (though that was part of it) - it was the fact that they had written themselves into a corner with the squats.

Really? The orks were marsupials in 1st ed, they had Goff Rockers with mowhawks. GW only admits to writing themselves into a corner when they don't want to keep writing. Everything else gets retconned with the giant retconhammer GW wields.

To start with, they called them squats. Squats. Whoever suggested that name should have been taken out and shot.

They still have Ratlings in the guard codex. Snotlings in the ork codex. However, the name itself can be changed just as easily. Make it an ork nickname they gave them. They have their own culture and society, they have their own name. Tell us what it is and have the orks running around screaming 'kill da squat!'

Secondly, there was the stumpy space hells-angels look.

Ok, first, you need to go back and examine the 1st edition of 40k. THEN come back with that as a defence. NONE of the armies back then looked like they do now, even the space marines looked stupid.

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt106vincent.htm

Oh look, it's the womblemobile trike of DOOM!!!!

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt205orkbuggy.htm

Great buggy there, lil gremlin.. I mean ork dude.

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt101spacemarines.htm

Nice bobble heads there guys.

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt03spacedwarfs.htm

Oh look, some space dwarfs sculpted in the same manner as everything else in 1st ed.

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt305squatbikes.htm

At least the squat bikes looked big, as opposed to the scooty puff jnr's that the space marines rode.

www.solegends.com/citrt/rt04spaceelves.htm

Go you space glam rockers you!

www.solegends.com/citrt/rto5ig96-01.html

Check out our awesomely intimidating Imperial gridiron helmets

www.solegends.com/citrt/c100marines-01.htm

... yeah, I got nothing for these guys.

Third, there was the problem of turning the epic army into a tabletop army, which was surprisingly problematic (the epic army focused on superheavy tanks like the landtrain, which were too large for 40k).

Tell that to the 5th ed Imperial Guard codex with ~20 vehicle variants.

Fourth, they were called squats. I know I already mentioned that, but I think it's worth repeating.

And marines are called beakies, eldar pansies or pointy ears, humans pinkskins.... by the orks. Not that it wouldn't stop GW changing the names if they wanted to. Lynn Elgonson... I mean Lion El'Jonson would agree.

Seriously, ORKS..in SPACE. see I can do it too. It's a juvenile argument. Oh noes their name is stupids their entire concept therefore sucks.

Basically, by the time they got around to considering taking another look at them, it was too late. The squats were a joke army and they couldn't think of a way to change that without completely rewriting them. Other armies they felt could be re-imagined into something worthwhile, but squats.

The orks were just as stupid if not moreso up to part way through 3rd ed, in 1999-2000 before they received a makeover physically and the slap stick was toned down.

Easier to just kill them off and come back to the concept of "Dwarves in Space" with a xenos race later if they wanted.

Except that the idea of a human population that has existed and survived since the dark age of technology with an understanding of ancient human tech is a really cool one. Rather than the homogeneous Imperial dogma. Better still they are the classic heavy worlder race and they live a long time.

When you get to the actual problems of the concept you find they are all entirely cosmetic, just as with the orks.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Whether you (in the nonspecific sense) believe the problems to be insurmountable or not is, as I mentioned before, irrelevant. GW chose not to surmount them. They, demonstrably, didn't like great chunks of the Squat imagery, and were not inspired by them sufficiently to make anything more of it.

Whether or not you feel that you're capable of making something interesting out of them is completely beside the point. GW doesn't want the Squat race in 40k, and haven't done for a long time.

Get over it.

Yes, as I said in my first post in this thread, I know that.

What I DON'T like is fans trying to dress it up as something inherent to the concept itself, that the SQUATS, not GW were the problem. Which is not true.

And obviously GW haven't gotten over dwarfs in space because they invented the demiurg which are extremely similar to the squats in the first place, even moreso if you assumed a squat apocalypse (ie that the homeworlds were destroyed they became drifting colonies, although it's a little too like the Eldar).

Perhaps instead of telling people to get over it, you get off your high horse. I'm well aware of GWs unwillingness to continue the Squats. I am NOT deluded into thinking it's the fault of the concept itself.

The Squats no longer exist because GW doesn't want them to exist. That's it. Had they wanted them to exist, they still would, whether modified or in the 1st edition form.

My only interest is people realising WHY the squats don't exist. This is reinforced with the deliberately disingenuous reductio ad absurdum by saying 'squats lol' or 'biker dwarfs lol'. Logical fallacies one and all.

Hellebore

Hellebore said:

Or, y'know, not. GW like the idea of Dwarfs in space. They did not like what had been done with the Squats and felt that it would be easier to just scrap the race entirely and hope that everyone would forget about them. The other races were salvagable, squats weren't worth the effort. Again: Squats. lol. Biker Dwarfs. lol.

It just wasn't worth the effort to save them.

Why bother with the Squats when the Demiurg are so much more interesting!?

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=100&efcid=3&efidt=83141

Anyhow, Hellebore, has much progress been made with the various Warseer's Varyngr for DH? Seems like immense opportunity. I've a fair few ideas waiting on the 'back burner' to transform into better Demiurg materia, but it'll take some time!