So, when I first saw Tarkin, I thought what a lot of people thought.

'That's good,' I said to myself, "but when we get more ships, then it will be amazing."

The logic makes sense. One Victory with a concentrate fire token will get one reroll, but five raiders will get a total of five rerolls from Grand Master Tark.

However, I posit that the Tark Master General is actually STRONGER with fewer strong ships than many small ships, for the reasons outlined below.

1) The Moff Meister deals out one token that you pick at the start of each turn. To a large degree, this mitigates the large command stacks that bigger ships have, and allows you to react to changing circumstances much faster. This is the sort of utility that smaller ships don't need nearly as badly.

2) There's the problem of wasted tokens with smaller ships. If you have a fleet of raiders all aimed at a single about-to-be-a-debris-token rebel ship, all the rerolls you get from Moffapalooza will come in handy. But, that sounds like a pretty rare circumstance. Most of the time, your ships will be more spread out, and while one might have a chance for an awesome shot and could use a concentrate fire token, another might really need to activate a squadron, and another might need to repair. Since every ship gets the same token, it makes it hard when different ships need to do different things. This is then compounded by the fact that....

3) Small ships can't store as many tokens. With a smaller command value, handing out tokens is harder, because if you don't use them the same turn you gain them, holding onto them is impossible.

There's also the problem that some command tokens, like repair, scale with ships stats anyway, so they get better on bigger ships, but that's not universally true the way the above is. What do you guys think? Am I on to something, or do I have some sort of space madness?

[barring someone pointing out to me exactly where I'm incorrect in this assessment...] When a ship has its maximum command tokens in play, and recieves a new one, it does not have to discard one of the old ones: it only must discard one of them, which can be the new one. If they already have a Nav token, and Tarkin hands out a Concentrate Fire token, and they want to keep the Nav token, just discard the Concentrate Fire token.

Tarkin rewards smart play and a tight fleet. If you know your ships are going to get good shots, Concentrate Fire away; this is easier the tighter the formation your flying is.

So, when I first saw Tarkin, I thought what a lot of people thought.

'That's good,' I said to myself, "but when we get more ships, then it will be amazing."

The logic makes sense. One Victory with a concentrate fire token will get one reroll, but five raiders will get a total of five rerolls from Grand Master Tark.

However, I posit that the Tark Master General is actually STRONGER with fewer strong ships than many small ships, for the reasons outlined below.

1) The Moff Meister deals out one token that you pick at the start of each turn. To a large degree, this mitigates the large command stacks that bigger ships have, and allows you to react to changing circumstances much faster. This is the sort of utility that smaller ships don't need nearly as badly.

2) There's the problem of wasted tokens with smaller ships. If you have a fleet of raiders all aimed at a single about-to-be-a-debris-token rebel ship, all the rerolls you get from Moffapalooza will come in handy. But, that sounds like a pretty rare circumstance. Most of the time, your ships will be more spread out, and while one might have a chance for an awesome shot and could use a concentrate fire token, another might really need to activate a squadron, and another might need to repair. Since every ship gets the same token, it makes it hard when different ships need to do different things. This is then compounded by the fact that....

3) Small ships can't store as many tokens. With a smaller command value, handing out tokens is harder, because if you don't use them the same turn you gain them, holding onto them is impossible.

There's also the problem that some command tokens, like repair, scale with ships stats anyway, so they get better on bigger ships, but that's not universally true the way the above is. What do you guys think? Am I on to something, or do I have some sort of space madness?

There is some space madness going on here, but my games seem to say that you are most certainly on to something. I agree that the change in reaction time is one of the largest benefits, particularly with engineering tokens on the larger ships.

That's what I'm saying, is that you can only keep one. You get to decide which one you keep, sure, but it's still not nearly as useful as being able to bank 3 of them and using them to keep your options open.

But, I'm pretty drunk right now, so I could be wrong. I'm really loving Tarkin with even just a single Victory II, and I was wondering if having more but weaker ships would water down his ability.

Hmmm...think about it this way. Smaller ships can react very quickly to the changing battlespace, via dials. They don't need the extra boost in reaction time, since they simply set their dials to what they need in that given round. Thus, they don't really need command tokens to maintain quick initiative. Instead, Tarkin gives them versatility: they don't suffer a reaction time loss, and even if the Tarkin-assigned token is not optimal, they have the dial giving them what they truly needed anyways.

That's what I'm saying, is that you can only keep one. You get to decide which one you keep, sure, but it's still not nearly as useful as being able to bank 3 of them and using them to keep your options open.

But, I'm pretty drunk right now, so I could be wrong. I'm really loving Tarkin with even just a single Victory II, and I was wondering if having more but weaker ships would water down his ability.

I think "water down" is the wrong expression. How ability does not get weaker, or less good with the presence of small ships. Sure, I'll agree that his ability is better for larger ships. A triple Vic fleet has more to gain, but the ability itself doesn't get watered down, even if it may feel less useful.

That's what I'm saying, is that you can only keep one. You get to decide which one you keep, sure, but it's still not nearly as useful as being able to bank 3 of them and using them to keep your options open.

But, I'm pretty drunk right now, so I could be wrong. I'm really loving Tarkin with even just a single Victory II, and I was wondering if having more but weaker ships would water down his ability.

I think "water down" is the wrong expression. How ability does not get weaker, or less good with the presence of small ships. Sure, I'll agree that his ability is better for larger ships. A triple Vic fleet has more to gain, but the ability itself doesn't get watered down, even if it may feel less useful.

Agreed. I think a better interpretation would be it waters down his "economy". Tarkin is an expensive fellow, and if you aren't getting optimal MPG out of his ability, it may be worth investing in another Commander who is cheaper and brings more to the table. For example, a fleet of GSDs that pays for Tarkin to issue several Engineering Tokens that is unable to make optimal use out of them may have been better served by Admiral Motti increasing hull values across the board, getting a better points-for-ship-longevity economy.

Not the greatest example, but I hope you'll get what I'm trying to say.

Regardless, thought provoking stuff.

I don't know, he seems stupid good as long as you don't keep hoarding tokens on the smaller class of ships

just grab your die re-roll or your speed change or add another squadron to your squadron command and go h.a.m with your gladiators

now if we're just questioning the logic of a straight more ships = better tarkin, then I would agree his ability's amazingness is not dictated by the number of ships alone (but I will have to withhold judgement until I see the Raider's card) as the value of the different tokens differ from ship to ship

Victory's Squadron token + command = holy **** a fleet of ties (or corrupter bombers)

Gladiator with navigation token + command will go sailing right where they enemy doesn't want him, or pull out a full stop on demand, but on a Victory it's just redundant

and if raiders are significant enough, a whole host of offensive die re-rolls are going to add up real quick

I don't know, he seems stupid good as long as you don't keep hoarding tokens on the smaller class of ships

just grab your die re-roll or your speed change or add another squadron to your squadron command and go h.a.m with your gladiators

now if we're just questioning the logic of a straight more ships = better tarkin, then I would agree his ability's amazingness is not dictated by the number of ships alone (but I will have to withhold judgement until I see the Raider's card)

Oh, I'm gonna try him out with a larger fleet of smaller ships, and see if he can work his Moff Magic. I guess what I really want to especially say is that I have been pleasantly surprised by Tarkin's performance even in small fleets.

I don't know, he seems stupid good as long as you don't keep hoarding tokens on the smaller class of ships

just grab your die re-roll or your speed change or add another squadron to your squadron command and go h.a.m with your gladiators

now if we're just questioning the logic of a straight more ships = better tarkin, then I would agree his ability's amazingness is not dictated by the number of ships alone (but I will have to withhold judgement until I see the Raider's card)

Oh, I'm gonna try him out with a larger fleet of smaller ships, and see if he can work his Moff Magic. I guess what I really want to especially say is that I have been pleasantly surprised by Tarkin's performance even in small fleets.

true true

i edited my post a bit, since I just figured the value of his ability (tokens) varies with the type of token and the type of ships present, which gives you another scale to measure his impact apart from just ship number

Just fyi... going full stop is like going full retard. You never go full retard.

Tarkin's ability really pairs well with Wulff, or the Mark Twain looking Imp that gives you the same command token after you spend one. I was using him to basically get two shields back each turn, which made it so I didn't really have to pick the engineering dial for any of my rounds. This may become even more useful later when you're trying to keep your flagship alive to hold an objective or just survive to round 6. The bane of Tarkin is really in his point cost. Motti's ability may not be that great but he's cheaper, and those extra points could make your fleet more versatile when it comes to handling different objectives. Right now the Leia/Dodonna combo is still way cheaper than the Tarkin/Wulff combo.

I'm pretty drunk right now, so I could be wrong...

Well, there's your first mistake... When I am this drunk I tend to sink a bit more... until I actually know I am right. Tactical uncertainty resolved.

This is kind of a subtle point:

However, I posit that the Tark Master General is actually STRONGER with fewer strong ships than many small ships, for the reasons outlined below.

I completely agree. I also really dig how the Tarkin commander card completely lives up to the fluff. The Tarkin Doctrine is completely about being the biggest, the baddest, and the most fear inspiring.

Moff Tarkin as commander of a bunch of Destroyers, with minimal fighter support is becoming very tempting to me. I am wondering if he can crush the Rebs' caps, before his fleet dies the Death of a Thousand Photon Proton Torpedoes...

EDIT: Corrected a wee spelling error (thanks to doctormungmung for catching that)

Moff Tarkin as commander of a bunch of Destroyers, with minimal fighter support is becoming very tempting to me. I am wondering if he can crush the Rebs' caps, before his fleet dies the Death of a Thousand Photon Torpedoes...

Wrong Star franchise. They're PROTON torpedoes.

Just fyi... going full stop is like going full retard. You never go full retard.

This is basically completely wrong.

I completely forgot about the liaison cards

who the **** needs Leah when you got Tarkin going "yeah, that command I set three turns in advance? **** that. I'm sending bombers up your ass now"

or, turn your "defensive" liaison into sudden swerving star destroyers