To be honest; I'm just going be very breif with my responce: Yes all those abilties are fantastic if you buy them all, but to me thats also a goal that is nay on impossible to obtain within the scope of many a campiagn. I've been playing a character for two years, with roughly 500/600 exp and if I was to be really honest with myself, because of the way I have drawn myself thin means that there is a lot of wasted potential.

I would, in addition to your final product, try and have certain stages hammered out first, so that you have the core, completely stripped down character concept. From there, you can apply layers.

You are quite right that 30 xp isn't the end of the world...but does that mean that buying FS emergent and exile is the shortest possible route to FR 2? I did mention I'm a min/maxer, right?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/114874-minimum-xp-for-force-ratingdedication-by-specialty/

You are quite right that 30 xp isn't the end of the world...but does that mean that buying FS emergent and exile is the shortest possible route to FR 2? I did mention I'm a min/maxer, right?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/114874-minimum-xp-for-force-ratingdedication-by-specialty/

OK now, *that* is helpful...thanks!

I'm not sure if anything has changed, but as far as I know Emergent/Exile only give you FR +1 if you were at 0 before. If your FR is already positive they give you nothing. Is there anything new I don't know about? Because if it is, I would totally love to purchese Exile for the FR and Intense Focus...

I'm not sure if anything has changed, but as far as I know Emergent/Exile only give you FR +1 if you were at 0 before. If your FR is already positive they give you nothing. Is there anything new I don't know about? Because if it is, I would totally love to purchese Exile for the FR and Intense Focus...

No changes. They just give you a Force Rating of 1 if you don't already have a Force Rating, nothing else.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but how exactly is it more worthwhile to invest in skills than talents or force dice? Maybe I can see it if you already have FR=2, but what about talents? Isn't going from 1 green to 1 yellow only about a 10-15% increase in hit chance/damage? I realise that the answer "it depends" is a good one for this question, and I am still a newbie...so...haha.

Maybe I have blinders on my eyes because of the character I am playing. But my assumption is, if you're min-maxing, you will min-max skills that are based on your characteristics. Thus, if you have 5 Willpower, Vigilance, Coercion, and so on. If you DON'T have 5 in a primary stat, you probably have a 4/4 split, in which case you have 4 greens in more skills. Now, if you already have skills at 4G and 5G, why spend more on those skills in favour of talents? If you're spending on skills that are not based on your primary characteristic(s), are you really min-maxing? I've found Force Powers and Talents way more useful than pumping skills, because they seem to open up another dimension of play.

I am not trying to be an ass with the above, so please don't read it with a sarcastic tone

I am genuinely looking for more of an explanation, since I am still new and trying to understand.

PS -- If you start with 4/4 characteristics, I can see foregoing everything in favour of skills (pump what you don't have based on characteristics), so that in the long term, you end up being good at everything (in favour of "tricks" or some utility). However, wouldn't this leave your character underwhelming for a long time? You'd be pumping low-dice skills, while others are unlocking Force Powers and Talents. Only much later could you say "hey, I am good at everything now!" and outperform the other characters at many things.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but how exactly is it more worthwhile to invest in skills than talents or force dice?

It's more worthwhile initially, but once your pool is 5 or 6 dice it maxes out, so of course it depends.

Isn't going from 1 green to 1 yellow only about a 10-15% increase in hit chance/damage?

It pushes the odds from Success with Threat to Success with Advantage, plus adds the possibility of a Triumph. But you're also forgetting that skill ranks increase the dice pool size after they exceed your characteristic (adding greens), and these extra greens add more to chances of success than flipping a green to a yellow. IOW, YYYG is noticeably better than YYY, and in terms of raw success, YYGG is probably better than YYY.

Honestly I don't think this game is all that friendly to min-maxers. You *can* be really good in one thing pretty early, but then you'll be so good you'll be bored, and you'll also suck at everything else, so...you'll be bored. Even hard-core min-maxers should probably try to balance things a bit, and be decent in more than a couple areas.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but how exactly is it more worthwhile to invest in skills than talents or force dice? Maybe I can see it if you already have FR=2, but what about talents? Isn't going from 1 green to 1 yellow only about a 10-15% increase in hit chance/damage? I realise that the answer "it depends" is a good one for this question, and I am still a newbie...so...haha.

Maybe I have blinders on my eyes because of the character I am playing. But my assumption is, if you're min-maxing, you will min-max skills that are based on your characteristics. Thus, if you have 5 Willpower, Vigilance, Coercion, and so on. If you DON'T have 5 in a primary stat, you probably have a 4/4 split, in which case you have 4 greens in more skills. Now, if you already have skills at 4G and 5G, why spend more on those skills in favour of talents? If you're spending on skills that are not based on your primary characteristic(s), are you really min-maxing? I've found Force Powers and Talents way more useful than pumping skills, because they seem to open up another dimension of play.

I am not trying to be an ass with the above, so please don't read it with a sarcastic tone

I am genuinely looking for more of an explanation, since I am still new and trying to understand.

PS -- If you start with 4/4 characteristics, I can see foregoing everything in favour of skills (pump what you don't have based on characteristics), so that in the long term, you end up being good at everything (in favour of "tricks" or some utility). However, wouldn't this leave your character underwhelming for a long time? You'd be pumping low-dice skills, while others are unlocking Force Powers and Talents. Only much later could you say "hey, I am good at everything now!" and outperform the other characters at many things.

whafrog covered most of it, but I just want to touch on you mentioning having a characteristic at 5, or 2 characteristics at 4. At character creation, I do believe those are only possible with Droids, which means no need to worry about Force Powers/Ratings, so that is just taken out of the equation entirely.

But it does really depend on what you want to do. Obviously force ratings and and force power upgrades should be the priority if you see your character's main hobby being to toss things around with the force. But if you are aiming more for proficiency in shooting, you might lean more towards skill ranks with a handful of select talents to up your ability to kill. And likewise, you may go with talents first because it makes some action/ability more accessible.

EDIT: Yeah, I see you're right, forgot to throw in bonuses for additional obligation, etc. etc.

I don't want to hijack the topic, but how exactly is it more worthwhile to invest in skills than talents or force dice? Maybe I can see it if you already have FR=2, but what about talents? Isn't going from 1 green to 1 yellow only about a 10-15% increase in hit chance/damage? I realise that the answer "it depends" is a good one for this question, and I am still a newbie...so...haha.

Not hijacking the convo at all; this is the very thing I want to get down into. As far as I can tell, it hasn't been seriously addressed anywhere.

Isn't going from 1 green to 1 yellow only about a 10-15% increase in hit chance/damage?

It pushes the odds from Success with Threat to Success with Advantage, plus adds the possibility of a Triumph. But you're also forgetting that skill ranks increase the dice pool size after they exceed your characteristic (adding greens), and these extra greens add more to chances of success than flipping a green to a yellow. IOW, YYYG is noticeably better than YYY, and in terms of raw success, YYGG is probably better than YYY.

Honestly I don't think this game is all that friendly to min-maxers. You *can* be really good in one thing pretty early, but then you'll be so good you'll be bored, and you'll also suck at everything else, so...you'll be bored. Even hard-core min-maxers should probably try to balance things a bit, and be decent in more than a couple areas.

While I agree with your statement about the relative value of skills to attributes, the variety of this game makes strategic character creation aka min-maxing more important, not less.

I don't think anyone wants another 3.5 where some character creation options were VASTLY superior, but finding the most efficient ways to do things , be it shooting, flying, or diplomacy isn't unreasonable.

Same things with certain skill/talent synergies that might not be immediately obvious, like a an Ace/Pilot taking Brilliant Evasion and This One Is Mine; 2-6 free rounds of pounding on an enemy who can't fight back is pretty sweet.

whafrog covered most of it, but I just want to touch on you mentioning having a characteristic at 5, or 2 characteristics at 4. At character creation, I do believe those are only possible with Droids, which means no need to worry about Force Powers/Ratings, so that is just taken out of the equation entirely.

But it does really depend on what you want to do. Obviously force ratings and and force power upgrades should be the priority if you see your character's main hobby being to toss things around with the force. But if you are aiming more for proficiency in shooting, you might lean more towards skill ranks with a handful of select talents to up your ability to kill. And likewise, you may go with talents first because it makes some action/ability more accessible.

Again, I don't disagree. But I don't think it's just a personal preference to look at something like the Enhance skill, that can make a person better at ranged or melee combat and weigh the relative value of investing in that power, and the FR to power it vs just buying skill ranks in piloting. To me, investing in Enhance is like investing in acrobatics / Coordination / Piloting: Planetary and Space / Agility AND Resilience / Brawl / Brawn all at once. It would seem to me as long as you have a character with more than FR 2, this is clearly the more efficient route to go. Again, I'm not talking about flavor, or even completely subjective things about what's more 'fun' to do, but brass tacks down and dirty mechanical efficiency.

I did forget some things like Triumph, and the fact that going to Y doesn't just increase success. My next question is then, when would the investment in a skill already at GGGGG or GGGG be worth it? In this scenario, you are only changing one G to a Y and not adding dice. I can see the investment when adding dice being very worth it.

Regarding starting characteristics, Humans can get a 5, Gand 5/3 or 4/4, and Drall 4/4/3. There are probably more examples but I can't think of any without looking them up.

Thanks for all the responses, very helpful

I did forget some things like Triumph, and the fact that going to Y doesn't just increase success. My next question is then, when would the investment in a skill already at GGGGG or GGGG be worth it? In this scenario, you are only changing one G to a Y and not adding dice. I can see the investment when adding dice being very worth it.

Regarding starting characteristics, Humans can get a 5, Gand 5/3 or 4/4, and Drall 4/4/3. There are probably more examples but I can't think of any without looking them up.

Thanks for all the responses, very helpful

Depends on the skill and how often you use it. Personally I probably wouldn't put much of a priority on getting any skill to 5:5, but 5:3 is probably not a bad idea if it's something that's also your primary function. You want at least fair odds of getting a triumph regularly to keep the action swinging in your direction.

4 proficiency dice is usually where you see a good amount of success and triumphs, with largely diminishing returns on results after that, not something I would worry about outside of combat skills using weapons with multiple effects that you would want more advantage results, if you are going to be upgrading results in the chosen skill via talents anyhow you can easily make do with 3 ranks in the skill.

Update:

We went up against our first group of Tie Fighters, and as GhostofMan said the Pathfinder is kind of flimsy, and we very nearly got shot down. The mechanic is working on buffing up the armor a bit, and I've had to reevaluate everything. Force dice are all well and good, but none of that matters if we get plastered in our next encounter. I was also surprised to see that Ace/Pilot has very little by way of increasing survivability; only Starfighter Ace and Ace/Rigger seem to; am I missing something?

That being said, here's my new plan:

I was also surprised to see that Ace/Pilot has very little by way of increasing survivability; only Starfighter Ace and Ace/Rigger seem to; am I missing something?

Tricky Target, Defensive Driving, and Brilliant Evasion.

That said there's no "I win" build. Being a good Hoban "Wash" Washburn in this system is a lot harder then being a good Jayne Cobb. (hope you got that reference). This system's vehicle combat system is good, but it's not forgiving and it doesn't allow skill ranks and talents to make up for even the smallest poor player decisions.

Learn the system. Know when to shoot and when to evade. Know when to angle your deflectors and when to not. Know when to fight and when to run away. Know how to game the system so the other guy has to blow a maneuver to do something simple and you don't.

By deciding to be "the pilot" you've chosen a hard, but rewarding path. The gun bunny can always get a bigger gun, or more armor, or shoot up a fist full of stims. He can brute force his way through and doesn't have to be the best, just the strongest. You can't. It's your wits, your ship, and your stats that will win the day, combined and usually in that order. You can't just stim yourself, you can't just get that one attachment. When the shooting starts, you've got to be the smartest, and fastest guy in the room, every time, no exceptions.

I still can't see why would you want the Emergent tree at the end of your list...

I still can't see why would you want the Emergent tree at the end of your list...

Higher FR, that's it; it would cost less to get to the +1 FR going that route than the Consular. The only variable would be if my characters get his hands on a lightsaber somewhere along the way a more offensive oriented talent tree might make sense. I'd end up with a FR of 5 or 6, which is pretty strong...assuming the campaign goes that long, of course.

Not really following what you are trying to say your progression is....

You have to start as an Ace to get Ace career signature abilities but you also have to take either Force Sensitive Exile or Emergent to earn a Force rating to take force powers if you are doing that, taking Starfighter Ace first won't satisfy that requirement since the Force Rating for characters beginning as a Starfighter Ace comes from the Warrior career not the specialization like Exile and Emergent.

Which means no Force Powers until you fulfill that requirement

I still can't see why would you want the Emergent tree at the end of your list...

Higher FR, that's it; it would cost less to get to the +1 FR going that route than the Consular. The only variable would be if my characters get his hands on a lightsaber somewhere along the way a more offensive oriented talent tree might make sense. I'd end up with a FR of 5 or 6, which is pretty strong...assuming the campaign goes that long, of course.

But I thought it was clear that Emergent and Exile don't grant FR if you already have 1+... That's why I had asked about it before in the thread.

I did start as Ace/Pilot and bought Starfighter Ace as my secondary specialization; DM gave me FR 1 with the specialization since I'd have gotten it with the career, anyhow. Worst case it would have cost me an extra 30 xp to buy Emergent earlier rather than late to get the FR1 before diving into Starfightre Ace; no big deal.

The only force power I currently possess is the left branch of the Enhance tree which I'd bought before I created this thread, and currently I'm down to the 4th row in Starfighter Ace. I'm the team's pilot, so I'm stacking powers and talents to be better at that.

The point behind still buying Emergent at a later date is it only costs 70xp to get +1FR going down that tree and has more useful skills than Conselar. Although realistically IF the game goes that far I'll probably go with Consular anyway to at least have a shot at ending up with a FR of 6 instead of 5..

Does that clear it up a bit?

The point behind still buying Emergent at a later date is it only costs 70xp to get +1FR going down that tree and has more useful skills than Conselar. Although realistically IF the game goes that far I'll probably go with Consular anyway to at least have a shot at ending up with a FR of 6 instead of 5.

Alright, I get it now. I just never considered the possibility of investing in a tree only for the FR talent, I'm stuck in the idea of taking profit from the talents of all my trees... If you desperately look for FR and nothing more, then this might be a good idea, yes.

It also doesn't help that the DM doesn't understand the Minion rules, and each tie fighter pilot is basically as good as I am. ಠ_ಠ

......wow.... congrats on not being dead yet dude....

It also doesn't help that the DM doesn't understand the Minion rules, and each tie fighter pilot is basically as good as I am. ಠ_ಠ

......wow.... congrats on not being dead yet dude....

Thank you. /Bow.

But now you understand all the build OCD; lol.

Oh, well, I agree with that... the best lightsaber can't save you from being shot to death while trapped in a spaceship.

It also doesn't help that the DM doesn't understand the Minion rules, and each tie fighter pilot is basically as good as I am. ಠ_ಠ

......wow.... congrats on not being dead yet dude....

I'll second that Congrats on not being dead yet, especially since it sounds like your DM is treating TIE pilots as Rivals.