The Advance is much bulkier (esp if you take AC and can just evade every turn) than an interceptor and not nearly as maneuverable. The dial's strictly inferior and only Vader's double action matches up with PTL shenanigans (provided he has engine) and even then he doesn't get a focus for use ala Soontir.
Edited by ficklegreendiceLearning Curve
Anybody else have any steep learning curve moments with any of their lists, or in learning to pilot a ship they particularly like?
Since I began playing 2 years ago I've primarily been a Rebel Pilot. I play all the factions but the one I have the most experience with is Rebel. Got 11th/24 (3 wins 2 losses, don't ask me why they chose to run 5 Swiss rounds instead of 4) in my first SC this month flying Rebels.
I have yet to even do sub-optimally with a double Aggressor squad. Every time I have failed and they have exploded spectacularly. I am determined to continue using them. I keep trying different tactics and changing up the Upgrades. One of these days I might actually kill a ship with them.
I like to use "spam" lists when I'm learning a ship. Planning and maneuvering 4 Interceptors every turn will give you more practice per match. But I'd never actually use more than 1, maybe 2, in a serious squad.
You might want to try Turr & 4 Sabers, all with PTL, just to practice. You wont have the extra security of Autothrusters or Soontir's action shell, but that can be a good thing when learning.
Other than that, I think you've got the right idea with using them like Luftwhiner. Hit & run tactics, attacking from every direction and speeding away, closing in to range 1 and barrel-roll/boost out of arc, saving your focus for defense when you've got more than one enemy arc; all these really help with Interceptors.
Also, remember that Turr can trigger PTL after his attack from a boost or barrel roll (he still can do the same action twice in a round).
The problem with spamming a ship that is completely foreign to you is that you get information overloaded and it becomes difficult to process all the mistakes you are making and internalize all the corrections. Spamming a new ship is a good way to get a lot of info about that ship very quickly, but it also make the learning curve steeper, that's just what happens when you have to process more information in a shorter amount of time.
In the confusion of all that new and foreign information you are trying to process, you might end up focusing on the wrong or less important mistakes and miss the important ones. I see this happen a lot when I play against newer players who are processing a lot of things for the first time, they get so hung up on the fact that they forgot to use an upgrade or whatever and don't realize they lost because they pointed half their ships in the wrong direction for 2 turns.
Edited by TvboyIt depends on the x1, really. Vader + Engine Upgrade is great as a highly mobile flanker, but at the other side Tempest + Accuracy Corrector is pretty happy to joust.
Sound advice, wish I'd thought of it first...
I like to use "spam" lists when I'm learning a ship. Planning and maneuvering 4 Interceptors every turn will give you more practice per match. But I'd never actually use more than 1, maybe 2, in a serious squad.
You might want to try Turr & 4 Sabers, all with PTL, just to practice. You wont have the extra security of Autothrusters or Soontir's action shell, but that can be a good thing when learning.
Other than that, I think you've got the right idea with using them like Luftwhiner. Hit & run tactics, attacking from every direction and speeding away, closing in to range 1 and barrel-roll/boost out of arc, saving your focus for defense when you've got more than one enemy arc; all these really help with Interceptors.
Also, remember that Turr can trigger PTL after his attack from a boost or barrel roll (he still can do the same action twice in a round).
By Turr and 4 sabers, I assume you mean 3 sabers?
I like to use "spam" lists when I'm learning a ship. Planning and maneuvering 4 Interceptors every turn will give you more practice per match. But I'd never actually use more than 1, maybe 2, in a serious squad.
You might want to try Turr & 4 Sabers, all with PTL, just to practice. You wont have the extra security of Autothrusters or Soontir's action shell, but that can be a good thing when learning.
Other than that, I think you've got the right idea with using them like Luftwhiner. Hit & run tactics, attacking from every direction and speeding away, closing in to range 1 and barrel-roll/boost out of arc, saving your focus for defense when you've got more than one enemy arc; all these really help with Interceptors.
Also, remember that Turr can trigger PTL after his attack from a boost or barrel roll (he still can do the same action twice in a round).
By Turr and 4 sabers, I assume you mean 3 sabers?
Yes, that's what I meant.
When I get frustrated I take a step back and remember the words of Jake the dog.
I'm unsure how applicable this is, but:
I like to have a goal in mind that is distinct from 'win the game' but that can become a stepping stone towards that when building a list & when flying it. For example: if i were to run a list with expensive named interceptors, one of my goals would probably be, "Get my named interceptor(s) at least 1 unopposed 4 die attack against a target,"
This helps me to practice something specific, fly with some purpose and assess how a given game went beyond the binary of, "I won / I lost,"
After I've set my goals, I can first see if what I want to do with my list is even feasible: how often, with practice, am I able to achieve my goals? If it's not very often, my list probably needs to be re-thought (example: I spent a while trying to fly Keyan Farlander with an Autoblaster, because I thought the weapon's ability just sounded pretty cool. Then i discovered I could hardly ever get it into position to shoot, no matter how well I flew - so I had to adjust my expectations & retool my list). Then I can see how effective my goals are at the (presumably) ultimate goal of winning the game: how often do I achieve my goals and as a result, I win the game? Again, if it's not very often, it might be time to re-adjust.
When I start reaching a goal and doing so brings home the bacon on a consistent basis, then I know I can mostly work on improving my turn-to-turn decision making and just get better at doing what I want my list to do.
Edited by President JyrgunkarrdGreat post! That's a fantastic way to improve, I think. I'll definitely incorporate it into my play.
Luftwhiner is the term used in WW2 flight sims for German pilots, particularly by those of us who fly Soviet (though Brits will sometimes use it too). Basically, our Soviet fighters have a performance envelope that rocks below 20,000ft, but above that the performance drops off like a rock. The Germans not only perform well above 20,000ft, but they have much sturdier planes, which can withstand higher dive speeds. So, the typical Luftwhiner tactic is to stay contrailing above 20,000, or just below contrails, and then cruise around looking for someone to dive on. They make one diving pass, and then leave to come back later and do it again. Very very frustrating to fly against, as you have no hope of catching them. It's also not as smart as it seems to be, because we always flew online campaigns where the ground war mattered, so while these guys flew around aimlessly at high altitude looking for that one guaranteed kill, our Sturmoviks and Peshkas pounded their ground forces into oblivion, and our fighters downed their Stukas and Ju-88s. So, basically, it's selfish and boring, and everything you'd expect from WW2 Germany.
What WW2 flight sim are you referring about? Game sounds really cool.
I think it's important to think of how a ship fits into a whole list (as many others have said already). The Arc Dodger is great...but a list full of them will have a hard time as at least one of them is going to get it full in the face. Finding that other part of the list that makes your main arc dodger more effective is part of the art. It's not just flying one ship, but finding the combo that works for you. I think that is where some people take "sub-optimal" ships, but do really well with them as they find a way to make it work.
So, you need to have some sort of threat to draw their attention away from your flanker. You can go mini-swarm. You can go nasty pilots. That can be Lambda with HLC, Tie Defender, Firespray, or Vader. Howlrunner is a great person to use with a mini-swarm for that. Not that I think she's super effective and always take her. It's because people love to kill her. You go with Howlrunner knowing she will die, but she becomes like an Imperial Biggs. Slow roll the Ties and use them as bait. Another option is Krassis with HLC. He gets the re-roll and can be nasty. People will want to jump at him to take him out. Slow roll him and have him stay far away. If people ignore him, he does some damage. If they rush him, your arc dodger moves in.
Personally, I like Turr Phenir with PTL. He isn't the high PS and if you play against people with constant high PS ships, you will suffer, but I do like the fact that he can go in with a Focus, get his shot off, and then boost and barrel roll out of the firing arc. Maybe he takes the shots from one high PS, but if there are lower PS ships, he dodges them. Nothing is more frustrating to your opponent then you getting the shots and leaving him with open space to shoot at.
Now for my learning curve story...
I'll tell you that I had to learn the 4 Tie Bomber list. I had never played more than one in a list before and had little idea of what to do. I met a guy one night and played him a bunch of times in a row. I knew that it would always be the approach that would make or break the game. I learned about the Rule of 11 video on You Tube. We sent through the first 3-4 turns a whole lot of times. If I lost half my list, I'd just say "let's re-rack this again". He laughed at me and thought I'd never get it. I learned a lot. Next, I played with my regular opponents for a month or two. At first, I learned to pull some awesome stunts off and they were surprised. Then, they figured out my list and had lists that would do well against it. I did ask them to play some of the standard competitive stuff. Right before the Store Champ, the first guy asked if I had ever won a game with it. Oh, I had won games against new opponents, but near the end, my friends were creaming me regular with it. They had learned.
I went to the SC and took my Tie Bomber list. I was expecting to face big, turreted ships all day long. I only faced one! At the end of 4 round of Swiss, I was the only person who was undefeated. I found that people just didn't know what the Tie Bomber could do. I learned how to do the approach and get the TL's on who I needed to. People were utterly surprised by my bombs. I think I got a Super Dash to land on 4 of them in one round and took out 3 of 5 Tie Interceptors in another. It was crazy how I just felt "in the flow" with it and knew what to do. I went against 3 generic Tie Phantoms in the Final Four and knew I was in trouble. I can deal with one Phantom, but three? I lost, but I put up a heck of a fight. Overall, I think I learned how to fly my Tie Bombers and especially learned the weaknesses. Oh, and the first guy I practiced with couldn't play, but showed up near the end and his eyes bugged out when I told him I was undefeated! Well worth it all.
Luftwhiner is the term used in WW2 flight sims for German pilots, particularly by those of us who fly Soviet (though Brits will sometimes use it too). Basically, our Soviet fighters have a performance envelope that rocks below 20,000ft, but above that the performance drops off like a rock. The Germans not only perform well above 20,000ft, but they have much sturdier planes, which can withstand higher dive speeds. So, the typical Luftwhiner tactic is to stay contrailing above 20,000, or just below contrails, and then cruise around looking for someone to dive on. They make one diving pass, and then leave to come back later and do it again. Very very frustrating to fly against, as you have no hope of catching them. It's also not as smart as it seems to be, because we always flew online campaigns where the ground war mattered, so while these guys flew around aimlessly at high altitude looking for that one guaranteed kill, our Sturmoviks and Peshkas pounded their ground forces into oblivion, and our fighters downed their Stukas and Ju-88s. So, basically, it's selfish and boring, and everything you'd expect from WW2 Germany.
What WW2 flight sim are you referring about? Game sounds really cool.
That's sort of par for the course tactically anywhere with WWII even semi-accurately modeled, but my particular experience with it was greatest in Il-2 Sturmovik. Not the new one, Battle of Stalingrad, but the old one, Il-2 and its expansions, especially 1946 and the community mods thereof.
I think it's important to think of how a ship fits into a whole list (as many others have said already). The Arc Dodger is great...but a list full of them will have a hard time as at least one of them is going to get it full in the face. Finding that other part of the list that makes your main arc dodger more effective is part of the art. It's not just flying one ship, but finding the combo that works for you. I think that is where some people take "sub-optimal" ships, but do really well with them as they find a way to make it work.
So, you need to have some sort of threat to draw their attention away from your flanker. You can go mini-swarm. You can go nasty pilots. That can be Lambda with HLC, Tie Defender, Firespray, or Vader. Howlrunner is a great person to use with a mini-swarm for that. Not that I think she's super effective and always take her. It's because people love to kill her. You go with Howlrunner knowing she will die, but she becomes like an Imperial Biggs. Slow roll the Ties and use them as bait. Another option is Krassis with HLC. He gets the re-roll and can be nasty. People will want to jump at him to take him out. Slow roll him and have him stay far away. If people ignore him, he does some damage. If they rush him, your arc dodger moves in.
Personally, I like Turr Phenir with PTL. He isn't the high PS and if you play against people with constant high PS ships, you will suffer, but I do like the fact that he can go in with a Focus, get his shot off, and then boost and barrel roll out of the firing arc. Maybe he takes the shots from one high PS, but if there are lower PS ships, he dodges them. Nothing is more frustrating to your opponent then you getting the shots and leaving him with open space to shoot at.
Now for my learning curve story...
I'll tell you that I had to learn the 4 Tie Bomber list. I had never played more than one in a list before and had little idea of what to do. I met a guy one night and played him a bunch of times in a row. I knew that it would always be the approach that would make or break the game. I learned about the Rule of 11 video on You Tube. We sent through the first 3-4 turns a whole lot of times. If I lost half my list, I'd just say "let's re-rack this again". He laughed at me and thought I'd never get it. I learned a lot. Next, I played with my regular opponents for a month or two. At first, I learned to pull some awesome stunts off and they were surprised. Then, they figured out my list and had lists that would do well against it. I did ask them to play some of the standard competitive stuff. Right before the Store Champ, the first guy asked if I had ever won a game with it. Oh, I had won games against new opponents, but near the end, my friends were creaming me regular with it. They had learned.
I went to the SC and took my Tie Bomber list. I was expecting to face big, turreted ships all day long. I only faced one! At the end of 4 round of Swiss, I was the only person who was undefeated. I found that people just didn't know what the Tie Bomber could do. I learned how to do the approach and get the TL's on who I needed to. People were utterly surprised by my bombs. I think I got a Super Dash to land on 4 of them in one round and took out 3 of 5 Tie Interceptors in another. It was crazy how I just felt "in the flow" with it and knew what to do. I went against 3 generic Tie Phantoms in the Final Four and knew I was in trouble. I can deal with one Phantom, but three? I lost, but I put up a heck of a fight. Overall, I think I learned how to fly my Tie Bombers and especially learned the weaknesses. Oh, and the first guy I practiced with couldn't play, but showed up near the end and his eyes bugged out when I told him I was undefeated! Well worth it all.
Great story. I have both a Firespray and a Lambda, and I'm going to toy with adding that to the list in place of Echo, though I do like Echo a lot, and enjoy playing the new Phantom rules. I like the way arc dodgers challenge my spatial reasoning skills and force me to think in advance. I may go play the free tournament at FFG Center in Minneapolis tomorrow. If so, I'll probably run the list with either the Firespray or the Lambda, though I'm tempted to go in and lose hard core with all arc-dodgers just for the experience of it.
You can do 3 arc dodgers, but you need to learn how to fly them. You need to be able to pull out and back off...or at least slow down on the one that is getting the attention. Let the others zip in and do the damage, then you can bring that one in. Just try not to let one of your ships get shot at by everyone. It is hard to get a good approach and that type of list doesn't have much room for mistakes.
I had good luck handling the learning curve by flying a mixture of Firesprays and Interceptors. I stumbled across it because I just picked them 'cause they're my favorite ships, but it also actually worked pretty well. A tricked-out, high PS, Interceptor often comes in at just about 1/3 of your list, which is the same price as a bare-bones Bounty Hunter (33, even).
I started by flying two Bounter Hunters and a souped-up Carnor Jax, having a big anvil of those two sturdy Firesprays, and a hammer/flanker with Jax. Then I started mixing it up, trying two Interceptors and one Bounty Hunter, and still had pretty solid wins. It's an easy sort of "mix and match" fleet to put together, as long as you keep everything just a hair over thirty points, you can swap in or out whatever you want, going for more durability or more mobility.
I can't imagine a Lambda wouldn't work just as well. I don't have one (or a Decimator) yet, but the principle would be much the same. Captain Yorr could be really handy to a pair of PtL Interceptors, too, at least while they're close to him. And fluff-wise, it even works better than a Firespray. A couple of Interceptors escorting a shuttle somewhere -- maybe even one carrying Darth Vader, making it an extra fire-magnet on the table? -- is pretty danged accurate to the lore, y'know?
I just tried an omicron pilot with title and HLC with my interceptors. It worked well, except I clearly have no idea how to fly a shuttle. That's a trick in and of itself. However, I think I'm going to stick with it for a little while, as even though my shuttle only got one shot the whole game, it did its job as a damage sink, and I think I can definitely improve my ability to fly with it.
Oh, and I've also added targeting computer to my interceptors instead of stealth device. I am the world's worst dice roller, I've decided. I had Guri at 2 hull today, and it took 3 target-locked 4 dice shots to take off those 2 hull. I blanked two four-dice rolls, and then blanked one again, and the other I ended up with one hit. So it took the third target-locked range 1 attack to do anything, and I'd have missed without TL because I blanked the whole roll again.
Is there a technique for rolling dice that I'm missing out on?
My biggest problem on the table is aggressiveness.I'm actually going to draw an FPS analogy: there are a lot of games where the biggest factor in who wins a firefight is who gets the first shot off. Assuming neither player has made a mistake with their loadout, and assuming neither player is bad, the person who starts counting down their time-to-kill clock first is likely to pick up the kill.So far, so good. But if you get that kill and keep pushing forward, you're likely to run into a fresh player... while you're still carrying damage from the last firefight. And now even if you get the drop on the other guy, it's much easier for him to kill you than vice-versa.The relevance to X-wing is that I'm having to carefully develop and cultivate the skill of figuring out when not to brawl. I've had mixed results, so far: highly maneuverable ships like Super Dash still tend to gut me more often than not, but it's getting better.
This is precisely where I'm at. Playing aggressively suited me well through every wave up until 5 where I would routinely take a kicking from Dash. This got so bad I took a break from the game to wait for wave 6. I'm now flying aggressors and am struggling most to fight off my aggressive tendencies - which are usually the reason I lose when I do (which unfortunately includes my local store championship final).
I do find the name "Aggressors" ironic.
Is there a technique for rolling dice that I'm missing out on?
I just tried an omicron pilot with title and HLC with my interceptors. It worked well, except I clearly have no idea how to fly a shuttle. That's a trick in and of itself. However, I think I'm going to stick with it for a little while, as even though my shuttle only got one shot the whole game, it did its job as a damage sink, and I think I can definitely improve my ability to fly with it.
The first thing that came to mind after reading the opening post was actually: Lambda. Doesn't take as much effort to fly decently as a tooled up Interceptor, but definitely not something that goes well in the first few games. I generally will move it slowly in the first turns (alternating 1 straight/bank and 0), and aim it towards the centre of the board to have the highest likelihood of getting shots at something. Flying aggressively probably doesn't work well here. As it will at some point be out of the game for a few turns (slowly turning around), don't make it too expensive. Get a few upgrades to make every shot count, such as Vader, FCS+Weapons Engineer or a nice Cannon. Finally, don't expect too much from it - after all, it will only be a some 25-30% of your list. If it dishes out some damage and takes some hits for the team, it has served its purpose well.
Oh, and it looks smashing too, especially with an Interceptor escort.
Great thread!
I am comfortable with the more chunky/beefy ships such as B wings, Bombers.
But I love the look of the Interceptor.
I can handle one, but would love to handle three in a squad.
Still in the learning curve, but this topic inspires me to stay persistent!
Thanx!
If you really want to make the shuttle turn around quickly, you need to give it Engine Upgrade and Adv. Sensors. You take your boost action before you take a 2 red turn. This will do a lot to get you turned around. Yes, it's more points to spend on something that will die, but if you really want it to be more effective, that's what you have to do.
If you are going with all arc dodgers, you need to have them come at the enemy from 3 different directions. Take a middle speed at first to see where they commit. Then, you need to run those that are not the target to try to rush around behind them. Don't go at them as they can easily turn at you and you will be in the same situation. Take the slow and careful method. Once you get behind them, you can easily turn at them with the Interceptors. Also, those that slow rolled it can turn quickly and rush in pretty fast. It's hard, but that's the best way.
Get your opponent to either split his forces or to go made trying to constantly turn at a target. Once you get in close and he starts turning, you can start arc dodging while the rest of your list fires. It's OK if one guy isn't shooting as long as he isn't getting a shot on you. Eventually one of you will make a mistake and that will set the tone for the rest of the match as to who wins.
Sometimes I try to fly Large based ships, namely the firespray.
Every time I try, I end up crashing (repeatedly) into all my own ships. I have a ridiculous time trying to figure out where my ship will be in relation to all the other ships due to it's large base.
Sometimes I try to fly Large based ships, namely the firespray.
Every time I try, I end up crashing (repeatedly) into all my own ships. I have a ridiculous time trying to figure out where my ship will be in relation to all the other ships due to it's large base.
I gave up trying to fly large bases with skill & grace; now I just smash Cpt Oicunn into the enemy ranks and feel great about myself for doing it.