I feel X-Wings got left behind as the Pilot Skill race moved forward and the preference for maneuverable ships became the norm. X-Wings are fine as long as other ships around them are not moving post the revealed dial. Boost and Barrel Roll are what keep the X-Wing from getting into the fight.

Eh, I don't know. In wave 3 it was already getting phased out in favor of the B-wing, and that is not all just because the B-wing has barrel roll. (Although that is very nice.) Even if the X-wing had boost and barrel roll the Rookie would still only be as cost effective as an Alpha Squadron Pilot, and we all know how that has turned out, unfortunately. The X-wing as per the lore is not as maneuverable as the TIE Fighter and certainly not the TIE Interceptor, so I am OK with it not coming with barrel roll or boost stock. In that aspect I think the developers "got it" thematically. The problem is that it just does not have enough bang for the buck. It needs at least a free hull upgrade across the board. That makes it basically as durable as a B-wing, but it costs almost the same with less "frills" (system slot and barrel roll), so it needs to earn its value back somewhere to be viable.

IMO:

Right now the only X-wings that see player are the Named ones. Flying an X-wing swarm was phased out as soon as the B-wing came out. X-wings are now used in singles along with other ships. Where their pilot ability helps out.

Even Biggs is hardly used now! But that has more to do with the death of many-ship builds and so many builds now favoring 2 ships.

I feel X-Wings got left behind as the Pilot Skill race moved forward and the preference for maneuverable ships became the norm. X-Wings are fine as long as other ships around them are not moving post the revealed dial. Boost and Barrel Roll are what keep the X-Wing from getting into the fight.

Eh, I don't know. In wave 3 it was already getting phased out in favor of the B-wing, and that is not all just because the B-wing has barrel roll. (Although that is very nice.) Even if the X-wing had boost and barrel roll the Rookie would still only be as cost effective as an Alpha Squadron Pilot, and we all know how that has turned out, unfortunately. The X-wing as per the lore is not as maneuverable as the TIE Fighter and certainly not the TIE Interceptor, so I am OK with it not coming with barrel roll or boost stock. In that aspect I think the developers "got it" thematically. The problem is that it just does not have enough bang for the buck. It needs at least a free hull upgrade across the board. That makes it basically as durable as a B-wing, but it costs almost the same with less "frills" (system slot and barrel roll), so it needs to earn its value back somewhere to be viable.

I completely agree that the X-Wing *feels* right on the table, but I think Osoroshii brings up a really valid point about PS.

It seems to me that since Wave 2 (Soontir, EU, A-Wings), a high PS bid has been as much about moving last than shooting first, while in Wave 1 it was mostly about shooting first. The Phantom seemed to only make that worse in Wave 4.

I guess my question is, is higher PS more valuable when a ship has post-maneuver abilities? Is the 8 point cost of an X-Wing to go from PS 1 to 9 significantly less efficient than the 9 point cost for a squint to go from 1 to 9? (oversimplifying here to allow multiple models, you're all smart enough to suss out the details of relative ship cost/pilot ability cost)

I think the defender buff card Alex Davy was thinking about was proton rockets.

Wasn't that already announced though? Those were spoiled in the Rebel Aces pack.

Yes, before Wave four came out even, so they certainly weren't an early reaction to unplayed defenders. Prockets seem clearly targeted at advanced and a-wings

Even Biggs is hardly used now! But that has more to do with the death of many-ship builds and so many builds now favoring 2 ships.

I use him, with my Bigg's Keywest list:

Wes, R3-A2, VI, Hull

Keyan, Push the Limit

Biggs, R2-D2, Shield Upgrade

I have toyed with other builds, but have surprised many players with this list. It really puts out damage, and right now on table it is very effective, on vassal I need to fly better. I have a small screen and frankly I can barely see it. (my eyes suck)

Anyway, just used him this last week at a Store Event (No Championship) and took first place. Only 12 players

Lost 1 game to Phat Han, and Corran.

Beat Dash and some A's

Beat Deci and Whisper

Beat Phat Han and Corran for the prize.

Biggs IMO is still the best X-wing there is!

Even Biggs is hardly used now! But that has more to do with the death of many-ship builds and so many builds now favoring 2 ships.

I use him, with my Bigg's Keywest list:

Wes, R3-A2, VI, Hull

Keyan, Push the Limit

Biggs, R2-D2, Shield Upgrade

I have toyed with other builds, but have surprised many players with this list. It really puts out damage, and right now on table it is very effective, on vassal I need to fly better. I have a small screen and frankly I can barely see it. (my eyes suck)

Anyway, just used him this last week at a Store Event (No Championship) and took first place. Only 12 players

Key notes:

Lost game to Phat Han, and Corran.

Beat Dash and some A's

Beat Deci and Whisper

Beat Phat Han and Corran for the prize.

Biggs IMO is still the best X-wing there is! I always look to biggs for rebel lists.

Yeah, if there is an X-Wing that is still viable, it has to be Biggs!

Ok, and Wedge I guess, Wedge is a pretty good counter to the Fat Han list, if he can survive.

Ok, and Wedge I guess, Wedge is a pretty good counter to the Fat Han list, if he can survive.

I think if the phantom changes have the effect they should, Luke will start making more of an appearance.

I really believe that the good Phantom pilots out there will most likely still do well with them. I do think the FAQ took a few teeth from the Phantom, but it is still a powerhouse with a LOT of red dice! Blocking decloak lanes is going to be a thing of the past but action denial on a Phantom should be a bit easier.

You just have to block decloaks in the prior turn. Like blocking 4k's from low-ps defenders.

You just have to block decloaks in the prior turn. Like blocking 4k's from low-ps defenders.

That is really hard to do when you need to essentially plan 3 moves ahead vs the Phantom.

[plan your move here]

Phantom decloaks this turn

[execute your move here]

Phantom moves

Phantom decloaks NEXT turn, taking all of the above information into account.

I really believe that the good Phantom pilots out there will most likely still do well with them. I do think the FAQ took a few teeth from the Phantom, but it is still a powerhouse with a LOT of red dice! Blocking decloak lanes is going to be a thing of the past but action denial on a Phantom should be a bit easier.

I don't disagree, but I think it will be enough that we'll see them played less.

You just have to block decloaks in the prior turn. Like blocking 4k's from low-ps defenders.

That is really hard to do when you need to essentially plan 3 moves ahead vs the Phantom.

[plan your move here]

Phantom decloaks this turn

[execute your move here]

Phantom moves

Phantom decloaks NEXT turn, taking all of the above information into account.

Good point. I've been working on a sigma/sigma/shadow list all morning so I wasn't thinking about Whisper/Echo moving afterwards.

I really believe that the good Phantom pilots out there will most likely still do well with them. I do think the FAQ took a few teeth from the Phantom, but it is still a powerhouse with a LOT of red dice! Blocking decloak lanes is going to be a thing of the past but action denial on a Phantom should be a bit easier.

Not to mention that players that guess decloak correctly during movement planning may be able to avoid some shots they wouldn't have been able to avoid if the Phantom could decloak in response to their movement. Combined with blocking to prevent taking a decloak action if there are no shots, and we may see more Phantoms hung out to dry with no shots against opponents that correctly guess their moves.

That could be true, but trying to block a ship the turn before is hard. Trying to guess where a ship that has a decloak, move, and potentially a barrel roll is going to end up, and then positioning to block a decloak on its following turn after all that is done is nigh impossible.

It would be pure guesswork, followed by the phantom either choosing not to barrel roll away from the future block, or not being able to, because other things happened to be in the way.

That could be true, but trying to block a ship the turn before is hard. Trying to guess where a ship that has a decloak, move, and potentially a barrel roll is going to end up, and then positioning to block a decloak on its following turn after all that is done is nigh impossible.

It would be pure guesswork, followed by the phantom either choosing not to barrel roll away from the future block, or not being able to, because other things happened to be in the way.

That brings up a good point, the Phantom can barrel roll as an action as well. So it really looks like:

More likely than actively blocking the cloaking lanes, you're going to want to simply get a lot of ships in the vicinity where the phantom will end up.

So no comments on how the generic Defender almost needs a turret to be viable at its cost, huh? I expected that to generate some pushback. This must just be the wrong thread for it.

TBH I don't think the defender defenders will take the time to follow your comments. I've given up on them.

The current Defender thread is at 25 pages, I figured any arguments I needed to make are there. Interested parties can find them. I am curious, however, how the Aggressor's jousting value matches up. In its base form, it's obviously going to be 25% better defensively due to one extra shield and hull, but offensively it seems very similar in output per point to a Defender. Obviously it will be more destructive once you start adding upgrades (as are named Defenders), but looking at the baseline stats is it any different? The dial is different, and I know you have coefficient for that (although it strikes me as hand-waving), and the slight difference in firing arc area due to large vs small bases, but otherwise they seem to have pretty similar offensive output.

The current Defender thread is at 25 pages, I figured any arguments I needed to make are there. Interested parties can find them. I am curious, however, how the Aggressor's jousting value matches up. In its base form, it's obviously going to be 25% better defensively due to one extra shield and hull, but offensively it seems very similar in output per point to a Defender. Obviously it will be more destructive once you start adding upgrades (as are named Defenders), but looking at the baseline stats is it any different? The dial is different, and I know you have coefficient for that (although it strikes me as hand-waving), and the slight difference in firing arc area due to large vs small bases, but otherwise they seem to have pretty similar offensive output.

Just a straight statline comparison.

Jousting value @ PS1:

• 3/3/3/3 is worth 23 points.
• 3/3/4/4 is worth ~26.6 points

Equivalent cost at PS1*:

• Defender: 30
• IG88: 36 / (1 + 6/24) = 28.8

PS1 equivalent jousting efficiency:

• Defender: 23/30 = 76.7%
• IG88: 26.6/28.8 = 92.3%

This is before considering the value of IG88-B's ability. It's also assuming that you are willing to bid to PS6 on the Aggressor. The actual required efficiency on both ships is about the same, but IG88 has more tools to get you there. Of course it also costs a lot more once you start putting upgrades on it.

* IG88 has +5PS and +1EPT, so cost is derated by (1 + 6/24).

Edit/PS: it would be 33% more durable, not 25% more durable. It technically it is slightly less than 33% better defensively because of the way the math works out on the final kill-shot. But it is pretty close. Numbers I have are:

2.482/1.91 = 1.30 --> 30% more durable

if you think defenders suck now, wait til the advanced fix comes out. It'll COMPLETELY knock them off. A PS 2 advanced with accuracy corrector that evades every turn will have better offense, better defense, higher PS, and will be 9 points cheaper!

You have to REALLY like the white K, to still think the defender is worth taking.

That other thread is gonna be 25 pages of moot points as soon as the raider enters realspace (Well, except for the point I just made, which is probably somewhere in those 25 pages...)

So no comments on how the generic Defender almost needs a turret to be viable at its cost, huh? I expected that to generate some pushback. This must just be the wrong thread for it.

That said, I will give some instances where the PS 1 defender fit nicely into a couple of roles/lists that did well for me (or others) in competitive settings, though they're much more in the category of Tier 2 type lists.

- Ion platform. Imperials have so little control, the PS1 defender can be a resilient option for it with more mobility than the other option (shuttle).

- I've flown a Soontir+Jax (PTL, Autothrusters, HU) with the PS 1 defender as a third ship competitively and it has done pretty well for me. It provides a beefier target than the other two and so either requires more attention, letting the aces fly free or gets ignored and then hits pretty hard. It also blocks nicely. Either way it's nice to have with two dangerous and more fragile interceptors. The only other thing I like pairing with Fel/Jax that provides a but more hull and shields at that point value is Kagi with Mara Jade. A bit more utility but not as much of a dogfighter.

- I saw three PS1 defenders with ions beat a pair of IG88s (I think Hothie reported on it in his thread). Obviously anything can happen in a single game but I was surprised to see it.