There has been some discussion in other threads regarding running the Mangler Cannon or HLC on Heavy M3A Interceptors.
I am wondering - have any of you math/statistics gurus out there run the numbers to determine which cannon gives you the best damage output for the cost? How much is the 3 point difference in cost related to the actual effective damage the cannons really do.
Edited for spelling. (Stupid auto-correct.)
Edited by Spike ITI think it's obvious that the HLC does more damage per pound. You should think about more than pure damage, though. For one, I've found that Scyks can die quite easily with concentrated fire or just one bad roll. For that reason, I don't want to put all the points of an HLC on it. Also, I find that if I put an HLC on a Scyk, it attracts a lot more fire than if I put a Mangler Cannon on it. So, some non-computative info about not getting shot at as much is hard to add into the mix.
Plus, you will have a hard time with crits and counting that for points. It all depends on who you are shooting. You shooting at big ships? Yes, please. More crits. You firing at high green dice ships? You want the HLC.
It's not so much about efficiency as it is a case of attracting more attention than they can handle. Measuring offensive output depends greatly on how many shots you are getting. A HLC Scyk will make a very tempting target, and can conceivably die before firing a single shot. Manglers are going to attract a little less fire and can live longer. I also like the synergy of having PS2 Manglers to land criticals to ships whose shields have been stripped by bigger, harder hitting ships that shoot first.
That get's covered in this thread.
The M3-A "Skyc" Interceptor has been partially spoiled. The dial is still unknown. More details will follow as the ship is fully spoiled. Serissu is essentially the Scum version of Biggs, and needs to be paired with glass cannons to be effective. Thankfully, the Scum faction already has several glass cannons, including the HWK pilots Palob and Bonearm, and a generic Skyc pilot equipped with the "Heavy Skyc" title and a Heavy Laser Cannon. With 3 agility but only 3 hull/shields, Hull Upgrade may be a good value. Cliff notes summary: It is highly unlikely that either the PS2 or Ashera will see heavy use. (I am valuing Ashera's ability at only 1 point, because it is easily bypassed.) The PS2 stock has a mediocre jousting efficiency. The PS2 with HLC also has a mediocre jousting efficiency since the platform has such low durability. Adding Hull Upgrade to PS2 + HLC + keeps the jousting efficiency almost identical. This makes Hull Upgrade a good choice (assuming you are willing to buy into the HLC to begin with), to lower its exceptionally high glass cannon ratio. The PS2 with the Mangler cannon is not cost effective at all. Ship name actual|predict| PS1 | JV | std | range | eff PS2 M3-A 14 | ???? | 13.4 | 12.2 | 90.8% | 90.7% - 90.9% | 128.6% Ashera1 18 | ???? | 14.1 | 12.2 | 86.7% | 86.6% - 86.8% | 203% Serissu3 20 | ???? | 12.8 | 12.2 | 95.7% | 95.6% - 95.8% | 245.7% PS2 + Ion3 19 | ???? | 15.4 | 11.7 | 76.1% | 73.7% - 78.1% | 242.1% PS2 + Ion3+ Hull 22 | ???? | 18.2 | 13.3 | 72.9% | 70.6% - 74.9% | 249.7% PS2 + Mangler 20 | ???? | 19.2 | 15.8 | 82% | 81% - 83% | 154.4% PS2 + Mangler + Hull 23 | ???? | 22.1 | 17.9 | 81.2% | 80.1% - 82.2% | 157.2% PS2 + HLC 23 | ???? | 22.1 | 19.6 | 88.9% | 86.5% - 91% | 133.3% PS2 + HLC + Hull 26 | ???? | 25 | 22.4 | 89.6% | 87.1% - 91.8% | 131.4% PS2 + HLC + Serissu 23 | ???? | 22.1 | 22.8 | 103.4% | 100% - 106.8% | 101.5% PS2 + HLC + Serissu + Hull 26 | ???? | 25 | 26 | 104.3% | 100.8% - 107.8% | 99.8% Ion effect: valued at additional 3 points Mangler: not considering the effect of a free hit to crit. HLC: assumes always has an HLC shot PS2 + HLC + Serissu: assumes always gets 1 defensive reroll
the numbers on the HLC are very interesting
personally, though, I'd never run it and would reach for mangler + hull any day
If my name isn't reason enough, my meta is chock full of super modified ships (aggressors, and push the limit of many things other than soontir, such as Corran or Scum Kath) and I have yet to play a game where that hull hasn't saved the Scyk's little ass. Plus the crit effect is not taken into account, and while random it is generally useful and changes the scope of the game (especially on the lower PS, which tend to shoot after damage has been dealt through the shields).
I will try the 26 point HLC + hull, though. Most of Scum seems to be really lacking in powerful long-range ships (vipers, sprays, and aggressors being the only 3 dice innate ships) so it'd be nice to find a home for the little guy.
Edited by ficklegreendiceIt also depends what role you want the Interceptor to play in your list.
If you want it to draw some fire away from the rest of your fleet early on, the HLC is a sure fire way to get your opponent's attention.
If you want it/them to stay around longer and put some consistent damage on your opponents ships, Mangler Cannon might be your best bet.
One piece of advice I find relevant, and unfortunately I can't remember where I read this initially, but you generally want your most offensive ship and your most defensive ship to be the same ship. An M3-A Interceptor doesn't really fit into that "rule" very well.
It also depends what role you want the Interceptor to play in your list.
If you want it to draw some fire away from the rest of your fleet early on, the HLC is a sure fire way to get your opponent's attention.
If you want it/them to stay around longer and put some consistent damage on your opponents ships, Mangler Cannon might be your best bet.
One piece of advice I find relevant, and unfortunately I can't remember where I read this initially, but you generally want your most offensive ship and your most defensive ship to be the same ship. An M3-A Interceptor doesn't really fit into that "rule" very well.
I find it does, but only in two very specific combinations
the 1st is Palob and Seriussu
people ******* hate Palob, for very good reason, but Seriussu makes the decision to fire at him very tricky. Seriussu is also packing a mangler because I can't find another ship to squeeze in between Palob, Seri, and 3 pirates and because I want to split attention between the two (3 green dice isn't much, but it's something with PTL focus + evade and Palob reducing enemy damage output by stealing focus).
Been a very fun and effective squad so far
the 2nd is Guri (predator, thrusters) with hull/mangler scyk and two auto-blaster Y-wings
the little guy is almost never targeted when the Y-wings present a threat to some super-agility like Soontir and then Guri becomes the center of attention, and he's been a solid little asset in every game I've had with him.
Edited by ficklegreendiceI am wondering - have any of you math/statistics gurus out there run the numbers to determine which cannon gives you the best damage output for the cost?
Yes:
edit: ninja'ed! 
So, it is hard to see how to make M3-A cannons work for their price. You want to bring a lot to get Serissu's buff, but then you fly in formation and close to range 1 quickly. Or you can grab just 1 as a flanker, but it costs a lot and can get swatted down almost instantly. This is probably why we haven't really seen many in tournaments yet.
Side note: I still haven't pulled in total cost predictions including the dial yet. Oops.
Edited by MajorJugglerMangler Scyk is basically the best Scum option at 20 points. Its only competition in that price bracket is either N'Dru (who's only truly strong outside of R2 of your other ships, which can be tough to pull off), an Autoblaster Y-Wing, or a Z-95 with 5-8 points of upgrades for your other ships.
At 23+ points, the HLC Scyk is competing with the BTL-A4 Ion Thug. The Thug will live longer, adds a control element, and will probably deal more damage overall.
One piece of advice I find relevant, and unfortunately I can't remember where I read this initially, but you generally want your most offensive ship and your most defensive ship to be the same ship. An M3-A Interceptor doesn't really fit into that "rule" very well.
I find it does, but only in two very specific combinations
[...]
Sorry, I should've said I was referring specifically to the HLC Scyk in my final comment that "an M3-A Interceptor doesn't really fit into that 'rule' very well".
There are certainly ways to make them work, Serissu being a very nice option.
Gives your opponent to option of shooting at your guns while they still have Serissu's defensive buff, or getting shot at by the guns while they take down Serissu!
If Scum had access to a ship similar to the Decimator with Ysanne or Fat Han that performs extremely well in the end game when your opponent is down to only a couple ships, I could see throwing in an HLC Scyk or two to draw fire away from it early.
Edited by Klutz
So, it is hard to see how to make M3-A cannons work for their price. You want to bring a lot to get Serissu's buff, but then you fly in formation and close to range 1 quickly. Or you can grab just 1 as a flanker, but it costs a lot and can get swatted down almost instantly. This is probably why we haven't really seen many in tournaments yet.
I've been trying to do so by introducing skews to the equation outside of the Scyk, by which I mean debuffs that "support" the Scyk without actually dumping more points on it and skewing its inefficiency further (such as stress, or anything to deny their actions and allow yours, but I don't think scum has much of that)
Auto-blaster Ys are a "skew" in that their efficiency is pretty ****, but they terrify some incredibly common and troublesome pilots (soontir, phantoms)
Palob is the only other thing I can think of (his "yoink" is pretty ridiculous when you think about the shift in action efficiency, disregarding the pilots that can afford to ignore it of course). Unlike rebel HWKs, he "supports" the squad by making the enemy **** which increases his own survivability and offensive output (no focus for enemy to modify their rolls) and, by extension, that of the entire squadron. It's even more hilarious when none of the opponents ships preform actions because they don't want Palob to steal their tokens 
]
oh right, and as to why I'd use Scyks even in these cases (apart from Seri + Palob, which is just a troll combo) it's because these skews operate at ranges 1 and/or 2, so I need the cannons to handle the longer range engagements more effectively.
Edited by ficklegreendiceMangler M3-A is paying a huge price for his damage output*durability. Think slightly better than generic E-wing or TIE Advanced levels of efficiency. Not worth the crit effect.
Yes, but this is pure jousting value and the ship works best not in a straight up fight. So, I say for the faction, it's a good ship that doesn't have an equivalent.
Mangler Scyk is basically the best Scum option at 20 points. Its only competition in that price bracket is either N'Dru (who's only truly strong outside of R2 of your other ships, which can be tough to pull off), an Autoblaster Y-Wing, or a Z-95 with 5-8 points of upgrades for your other ships.
At 23+ points, the HLC Scyk is competing with the BTL-A4 Ion Thug. The Thug will live longer, adds a control element, and will probably deal more damage overall.
This was exactly the point I was going to bring up. I like to look at ships in terms of what's best in this point range? At the 20 point range, there's almost nothing else there. So 1 or two with manglers can be easily squeezed into many lists.
At 23+ points, you're stepping not only on the toes of Y-wings, but a fairly decked out N'Dru, 2 Zs, or Mux with an ion. How dead set on that HLC are you...?
I am wondering - have any of you math/statistics gurus out there run the numbers to determine which cannon gives you the best damage output for the cost?
Yes:
edit: ninja'ed!
- Mangler M3-A is paying a huge price for his damage output*durability. Think slightly better than generic E-wing or TIE Advanced levels of efficiency. Not worth the crit effect.
- HLC M3-A is better but still not great. If you go this route, then a hull or shield is a solid value, although not required. And it is terrible at range 1 (not included in those numbers).
- HLC M3-A + Serissu friendly buff is actually very good - at least until you get into range 1. Then you're hosed again.
So, it is hard to see how to make M3-A cannons work for their price. You want to bring a lot to get Serissu's buff, but then you fly in formation and close to range 1 quickly. Or you can grab just 1 as a flanker, but it costs a lot and can get swatted down almost instantly. This is probably why we haven't really seen many in tournaments yet.
Side note: I still haven't pulled in total cost predictions including the dial yet. Oops.
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
I am wondering - have any of you math/statistics gurus out there run the numbers to determine which cannon gives you the best damage output for the cost?
Yes:
edit: ninja'ed!
- Mangler M3-A is paying a huge price for his damage output*durability. Think slightly better than generic E-wing or TIE Advanced levels of efficiency. Not worth the crit effect.
- HLC M3-A is better but still not great. If you go this route, then a hull or shield is a solid value, although not required. And it is terrible at range 1 (not included in those numbers).
- HLC M3-A + Serissu friendly buff is actually very good - at least until you get into range 1. Then you're hosed again.
So, it is hard to see how to make M3-A cannons work for their price. You want to bring a lot to get Serissu's buff, but then you fly in formation and close to range 1 quickly. Or you can grab just 1 as a flanker, but it costs a lot and can get swatted down almost instantly. This is probably why we haven't really seen many in tournaments yet.
Side note: I still haven't pulled in total cost predictions including the dial yet. Oops.
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
What can you put in your list that is a higher priority target than a PS2 HLC Scyk? It has a huge damage potential, it isn't particularly durable, and it probably hasn't shot yet (unless you are flying generics).
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
What can you put in your list that is a higher priority target than a PS2 HLC Scyk? It has a huge damage potential, it isn't particularly durable, and it probably hasn't shot yet (unless you are flying generics).
Palob + Opportunist + Blaster Turret + Moldy Crow + K4 Security Droid. 4 dice TL+F on some poor soul that already just got mugged for his lunch money token at the start of combat.
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
What can you put in your list that is a higher priority target than a PS2 HLC Scyk? It has a huge damage potential, it isn't particularly durable, and it probably hasn't shot yet (unless you are flying generics).
Palob + Opportunist + Blaster Turret + Moldy Crow + K4 Security Droid. 4 dice TL+F on some poor soul that already just got mugged for his
lunch moneytoken at the start of combat.
Something like this:
Something like this:
Palob Godalhi (20)Opportunist (4)Blaster Turret (4)K4 Security Droid (3)Moldy Crow (3)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Serissu (20)Total: 100
As M3-A lists go, I like that a lot. My best that I had come up with was 3x Cartels w/ HLC+Hull, and Serissu.
I still think that Mangler Cannon is the way to go.
Interesting that I haven't seen many people use an Ion Cannon much. That might be something that's not very threatening from the get go, but quite possibly giving a good amount of control.
Something like this:
Palob Godalhi (20)Opportunist (4)Blaster Turret (4)K4 Security Droid (3)Moldy Crow (3)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Serissu (20)Total: 100
As M3-A lists go, I like that a lot. My best that I had come up with was 3x Cartels w/ HLC+Hull, and Serissu.
I ran a 3xCartels+HLC and Serissu+HLC+Elusiveness this weekend. Four HLCs can tear through ships pretty quickly.
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
What can you put in your list that is a higher priority target than a PS2 HLC Scyk? It has a huge damage potential, it isn't particularly durable, and it probably hasn't shot yet (unless you are flying generics).
Palob + Opportunist + Blaster Turret + Moldy Crow + K4 Security Droid. 4 dice TL+F on some poor soul that already just got mugged for his
lunch moneytoken at the start of combat.
Something like this:
Palob Godalhi (20)Opportunist (4)Blaster Turret (4)K4 Security Droid (3)Moldy Crow (3)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Serissu (20)Total: 100Serissu should make Palob tougher to kill and also discourage shooting at the HLC Scyks. In most cases she'll probably be the first thing that gets shot at.
I've been thinking of a similar list, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
Sirissu
- Heavy Scyk
- Heavy Laser Cannon
- Swarm Tactics
Tansarii Point Veteran
- Heavy Scyk
- Mangler Cannon
- Push the Limit
Cartel Spacer
- Heavy Scyk
- Heavy Laser Cannon
Kaatu Leeachos
- Bodyguard
Gives you two shots at PS8 and two at PS5. The Veteran uses PTL to generate a focus token to keep, and an Evade token for Leeachos to steal. May make Sirissu too much of a target, though.
While I won't outright disagree with your numbers, I don't think they tell the whole story here. The HLC M3A just needs time to earn it's points, so it's what you pair the ship with in your squad that will make or break how effective the M3A is. You have to have targets that will draw more attention, so that you get those HLC shots. One thing about the Jousting values is that these are individual stats, and squads are more then just individuals. A balanced squad will bring out the best in the ships you bring. The Spanish National squad is a great squad, yet if you look at Roak and Cracken those ships aren't very good in your Jousting matrix, yet they make the squad. Cracken's action granting ability can be thought of like this. He's lending out actions so that his support ships can help earn back his cost. I hope that make sense. So, while the M3A may seem like a bad buy, if you put them in the right squad I think they shine. As a side note I've flown a few HLC M3A's and there dial is great for running HLC.
What can you put in your list that is a higher priority target than a PS2 HLC Scyk? It has a huge damage potential, it isn't particularly durable, and it probably hasn't shot yet (unless you are flying generics).
Palob + Opportunist + Blaster Turret + Moldy Crow + K4 Security Droid. 4 dice TL+F on some poor soul that already just got mugged for his
lunch moneytoken at the start of combat.
Something like this:
Palob Godalhi (20)Opportunist (4)Blaster Turret (4)K4 Security Droid (3)Moldy Crow (3)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Cartel Spacer (14)Heavy Laser Cannon (7)"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)Serissu (20)Total: 100Serissu should make Palob tougher to kill and also discourage shooting at the HLC Scyks. In most cases she'll probably be the first thing that gets shot at.
I've been thinking of a similar list, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
Sirissu
- Heavy Scyk
- Heavy Laser Cannon
- Swarm Tactics
Tansarii Point Veteran
- Heavy Scyk
- Mangler Cannon
- Push the Limit
Cartel Spacer
- Heavy Scyk
- Heavy Laser Cannon
Kaatu Leeachos
- Bodyguard
Gives you two shots at PS8 and two at PS5. The Veteran uses PTL to generate a focus token to keep, and an Evade token for Leeachos to steal. May make Sirissu too much of a target, though.
Once Serissu is gone Bodyguard is useless.
I still think that Mangler Cannon is the way to go.
Interesting that I haven't seen many people use an Ion Cannon much. That might be something that's not very threatening from the get go, but quite possibly giving a good amount of control.
I consider using it more and more with each list. The Cartel + Title + Ion is only 19 pts! That's certainly the cheapest Ion platform. It usually gets pushed out for Mangler, but I bet I can make a good list with the Ion once I commit to using it. Is it better than Ndru + Lone Wolf though? Maybe in some sort of list.
That's the problem with Bodyguard. Scum doesn't have enough high PS pilots and doesn't have a PS 3 with an EPT.
I like the Mangler better on Sycks just because I can use it at range 1. The Syck dial doesn't have that 1 forward, so it can be hard to stay at range longer.
Edited by Jo JoI'm with you phild0, the best cannons i have found for the syck are the ion and the flechette. they tend to get ignored, but can be a real pain for your opponent. I like them as cheap little control ships.
I do think that 1 syck with HLC might make for a good rear guard (fly the rest of your force in and let it hang back and pound into the furball) but it's awfully squishy to put 9 points of upgrades on (or 12 if you do hull upgrade)
I think I'd rather buy a y-wing.