And I was trying to be funny in turn. Truce? :-)

To get things back on track...

*PEACH my notes for me:

*Does anyone still recall using this old internet term?

Problem : Sometimes it’s better to get ambushed then to be the ambusher due to a party being much better at Vigilance (reacting) then Coolness (acting).

Cool : This skill in RAW describes it being used for Initiative when ambushing. Interpret this to using Cool for Initiative anytime the person knows there is about to be a fight. Example: Two people facing off in a cantina would both roll Cool for Initiative.

Vigilance : This skill in RAW describes it being used for Initiative when reacting to an ambush. Use Vigilance for Initiative anytime the person didn’t know there was about to be a fight. Example: A Jawa suddenly jumps you for drinking blue milk in the cantina.

Other skills may come into play before Initiative is rolled. I’ve structured this below, but note that Steps #1 and #2 aren’t always going to happen . You often may skip straight to Step #3, Initiative.

1. Preparation : Make this check only if an attacker had the time and desire to set up a good ambush or make a quick plan to catch someone by surprise. Warfare or Skullduggery to set up a good ambush or make a quick plan to catch someone by surprise. Success gives a Bonus for Step #2 (Detection). Success with Triumph upgrades Detection. Disadvantage may give Setback to Detection while a Despair could downgrade.
2. Detection : Make this check only when there was some sort of surprise attack, regardless if there was any preparation. Opposed Stealth versus either Perception (target actively looking for an attack) or Vigilance (not actively looking). This check determines the amount of surprise. Success allows an immediate free Action before structured combat begins. A Triumph also gives a bonus Maneuver upgrades the followng Initiative check regardless of the success of the check. Advantage/Disadvantage may give Bonus or Setback to the free Action or to Initiative (especially if the check failed). A Despair could downgrade Initiative or perhaps change a success Action into a Maneuver instead.
3. Initiative : Initiative checks using Cool or Vigilance based on whether the roller knew he was about to get into a fight or not, regardless of the results of above.

Looks good. I would add that success in the previous rolls can give bonuses to the initiative rolls. A really good preperation and detection rolls can make up for not being good at cool. i would think.

Noted and made a change to Step #2 that also makes the use of Triumph/Despair more consistent.

Preperation doesn't directly affect Initiative, but indirectly does. Preperation can give bonus/upgrades to Detection which can give bonus/upgrades to Initiative.

ETA: Hmm, I just noted you said, "success". Preparation success does give a Bonus to the next Step. But, Detection Success I'm using for granting an Action before structured combat and initiative begins. I was using advantage/triumph to increase the initiative check.

For #1, I'd add Leadership to keep the minions in line and not acting too soon.

For #1, I'd add Leadership to keep the minions in line and not acting too soon.

As a substitute to Warfare or Skullduggery or as an addition to possible skills?

I imagined two different "Preperation" scenarios when I picked Warfare and Skullduggery:

Military-Style Ambush using Warfare:

Knowing such things as setting an ambush at a corner of a road where the targets will have to slow down, making sure everyone knows the signal to start firing, not setting up your firing lines directly across from each other, making sure flanks are covered for the inevitable counter-ambush, etc.

Skullduggery-Style Ambush:

Making sure everyone knows the hand signal for attack, everyone is spread out around the cantina with good angles of fire upon the target table, then waiting for the thugs at said table to be distracted when the Twilek dancers come up on stage.

I suppose there should not be any limits to what skills could be used for, "preparation". For example, I could also imagine Deception being used (one PC plays the injured victim lying at the end of the alley waiting for the Stormtroopers to investigate while the other PCs hide in a nearby trash bin). So, perhaps give a list of possible common skill suggestions for a pre-planned attack, but it's really whatever the players can convince the GM makes sense.

Perhaps it would be simpler to just combine Steps #1 and #2? Warfare, Deception, Skullduggery, Stealth, could all be possible preparation skills depending on what the players come up with when launching a surprise attack. The Oppossed skill could be Vigilance (commonly) or sometimes Perception depending on the situation. Success gives a bonus Action before combat, Triumph upgrades that Action, Advantages give Bonus to Initiative, Disadvantages give Setback to Initiative, Failure means you only get a free Maneuver before combat, and a Despair could mean something like Joe opened fire too soon - he gets a bonus Action but no one else does!

Leadership would give bonuses to ones warfare deception skulduggery stealth for ambushing. And could give bonuses to vigilance/perception for detecting ambushes.

What exactly do you mean by Leadership giving bonuses? Do you mean rolling another Leadership check to apply bonuses? Or using it as some sort of skilled Assist bonus to the other check? That would be something not mentioned in RAW (using one skill to provide skilled asssitance to a different skill), but it's interesting.

Well a good leader can get people to work in a more efficient/effective manner. So i would potentially give boost die or possibly even upgrades for a good leadership roll with a good explanation for what you are doing to get that bonus.

IE a leadership roll helping set up an ambush.
They walk sown the path looking and making sure no one can be seen. Making sure everyone is on the same page for when they will attack. Making sure no one is in anyone else's line of fire. etc.

...or they keep keep the troopers from whiling away the time telling jokes and goofing off. One of the biggest hurdles of any military operation is the "hurry up and wait" aspect. Keeping people focussed and on task through hours of boredom seems like a classic Leadership issue. I wasn't necessarily suggesting it had to coincide with other checks, that depends more on how elaborate the ambush is and how long it takes to set up. It was more just an additional option for the players to choose.

Take 2, a less complicated version:

Problem : Sometimes it’s better to get ambushed then to be the ambusher due to a party being much better at Vigilance (reacting) then Coolness (acting).

Preparation (pre-Initiative checks)

Proper preparation before an attack may give large advantages, especially at the start of a battle. Improper preparation may have the opposite effect. If there is desire and time, a check may be made in preparation of an attack. Typically this is only possible when one side has the benefit of surprise upon the other. Deception, Leadership, Skullduggery, and Warfare are all common candidates. for such a check. Depending on the situation, they may be checked alone or opposed by Vigilance (target unaware of the attack) or Perception (target actively looking for the attack).

Made some adjustments. Text in red is being considered:

Success : Free Action before structured combat begins. Change to free Maneuver 1 Success, free Action 2+?

Failure : No free Action.

Disadvantage : Setback to Initiative check per 2.

Advantage : Bonus to Initiative check per 2.

Triumph's and Despairs may be used to Upgrade/Downgrade the free Action or subsequent Initiative check, or in the case of a Despair, reduce the free Action to a Maneuver instead?

Initiative (as structured combat begins)

Initiative checks using Cool or Vigilance based on whether the roller knew he was about to get into a fight or not, regardless of the results of above. Example1: Two people facing off in a cantina would both roll Cool for Initiative. Example2: A Jawa suddenly jumps you while you are drinking some blue milk in the cantina. The Jawa uses Cool while you use Vigilance.

Um. Wouldn't advantage provide the Boost, while Disadvantage provides the Setback die? Also it should probably include a spending ratio - otherwise 1 advantage is as good as 5, and same with successes. It also feels a little to much for me, particularly if you use the minute long rounds. I'd consider using 1 success for a free maneuver, 2 for an Action (3 for both), For advantage I'd consider 1 advantage to boost yourself, 2 to boost an ally or setback an enemy. Then have it be 2 disadvantage per setback. We may also not need to defend Triumph and Despair - upgrading and downgrading are common uses, but there are also many other situations that could arise from a great or terrible ambush.

I really think things are getting very complicated for no apparent gain.

Um. Wouldn't advantage provide the Boost, while Disadvantage provides the Setback die? Also it should probably include a spending ratio - otherwise 1 advantage is as good as 5, and same with successes. It also feels a little to much for me, particularly if you use the minute long rounds. I'd consider using 1 success for a free maneuver, 2 for an Action (3 for both), For advantage I'd consider 1 advantage to boost yourself, 2 to boost an ally or setback an enemy. Then have it be 2 disadvantage per setback. We may also not need to defend Triumph and Despair - upgrading and downgrading are common uses, but there are also many other situations that could arise from a great or terrible ambush.

Yes I reversed the Boost/Setback accidentally. Thanks for the input. I further simplified my notes above.

I really think things are getting very complicated for no apparent gain.

Problem : Sometimes it’s better to get ambushed then to be the ambusher due to a party being much better at Vigilance (reacting) then Coolness (acting).

Above is the primary gain. Plus, I figured some (like me) would like examples spelled out on how to spend the dice. The explanation really isn't any more complicated then the skill use descriptions in RAW, just in a different format. I admit the 3 steps I began with were overly complicated. My recent attempt is just adding some examples of how to use and interpret a check for preparing an ambush.

Some people would be better at reacting than acting... I know I would be.

Imagine the guys in Saving Private Ryan waiting for the germans to show up... I would **** myself in fear and would be a bad brother in arms due to nerves. I would react much better if I was surprised.

Some people would be better at reacting than acting... I know I would be.

Imagine the guys in Saving Private Ryan waiting for the germans to show up... I would **** myself in fear and would be a bad brother in arms due to nerves. I would react much better if I was surprised.

Maybe if you bought some ranks in Cool ...

Some people would be better at reacting than acting... I know I would be.

Imagine the guys in Saving Private Ryan waiting for the germans to show up... I would **** myself in fear and would be a bad brother in arms due to nerves. I would react much better if I was surprised.

While I understand what your aiming for here, I'd argue that's fear, which could also affect initiative. (Setback die) but doesn't necessarily represent the speed you can react to a complex adversarial situation.

Actually no. Perhaps in this exsmple it is, but it goes gor many things.

I have anxiety, if I have time to prepare I get nervous. I said so earlier on in this topic, that when I have to do a presentation in the late afternoon I start sweating in the morning. I am not cool, like that.

If I get called on stage spontaneously I do a lot better. I am vigilant like that.

To nitpick, any such social 'combat' is RAW as Cool, not vigilance. So if a character were to be spontaneously called up to stage, they would roll cool. Vigilance is, and probably should be, an irrelevant skill as to who wins a debate.

How are you at dodgeball, that's a little closer to combat. Have you found it easier to dodge a ball when you didn't know you were playing, and your friend just yelled out your name and tossed a ball at you, or when you knew the game was about to begin, then you friend throws a ball at you?

(P.S. I really mean you in the universal sense, but since you were talking about yourself earlier)

Well, this is also not RAW as you are now skipping the initiative part and are goung straight to "combat actions".

Fair enough. Its actually difficult to think of initiative in a real setting, given that all it determines is whose actions are resolved first.

I suppose another sport might work - say a foot race with a starting gun. Who do you expect to get off the block first, the guy in position and waiting for the gun, or the guy who's just hanging out by the starting line, unaware that the race is about to start.

If it was me on the starting block and Usain Bolt hanging out at the starting line?

Well, let's run all 4

1) equally skilled amateurs

2) equally skilled professionals

3) Amateur (block) vs. Professional (standing)

4) Professional (block) vs. Amateur (standing)

And this is just across the staring line, as you'd expect competitive athletics checks to see who actually wins the race.

The whole concept of 'initiative' and turn orders is an incredibly abstract and gamified way of looking at life. It's a very abstracted concept that's just necessary to determine things in a game.

At some point when playing a roleplaying game I feel that it's important to just accept that fact and realize it's not going to map perfectly onto any aspect of either life OR the movies the game is emulating.