If the players carefully planned an ambush, and the targets failed a Perception roll or whatever to detect it, I'd certainly give them a free round of attacks. After that it's still Vigilance for the targets and Cool for the ambushers.

What whafrog said If you want to ambush someone, instead of just rolling for initiative when the ambush is sprung, have the ambushed party do a Perception check opposed by an appropriate skill of the ambushers (Stealth for hiding, Survival for traps, etc). If they don't make it, the ambushers get off a free shot, or the trap goes off, or whatever. If they do make it, they notice the ambush at the last moment and no free action occurs. After that, then everyone rolls for initiative (Cool for the ambushers, Vigilance for the ambushed) and the combat continues as normal.

How did he end up in a situation where he has great Vigilance and awful Cool?

Does he understand you can spend experience points on skills you want to be good at?

I'm afraid this is something I just do not understand. Some folks are building new combat mechanics, others are ignoring the definitions of the rules, rather than just have their players spend some points on a skill in order to be good at it?

If your conception for your character is that they're great at ambushing people, then maybe buy some ranks in Cool. What am I missing about how this is not the main thing said whenever this question comes up?

It was our first time in Edge of the Empire coming from Pathfinder. And while I stressed that min maxing will really handicap you, he did it anyway. His character was a combat droid with 1 in intelligence, cunning and presence. His willpower was higher so he had a bit more strain.

He knows he could spend points to improve cool, but his mindset says: "any points in cool are points not in ranged heavy!" We have started a new campaign and he has since made a well rounded character. Useful for multiple tasks, not just murder.

What whafrog said If you want to ambush someone, instead of just rolling for initiative when the ambush is sprung, have the ambushed party do a Perception check opposed by an appropriate skill of the ambushers (Stealth for hiding, Survival for traps, etc). If they don't make it, the ambushers get off a free shot, or the trap goes off, or whatever. If they do make it, they notice the ambush at the last moment and no free action occurs. After that, then everyone rolls for initiative (Cool for the ambushers, Vigilance for the ambushed) and the combat continues as normal.

And if they failed to notice the ambush throw some setback into their initiative check.

Another thing to remember is that the CRB also says, if in doubt use vigilance. There is nothing stopping you deciding that vigilance is the initiative skill, and FFG have built that option into the system. I would also point out that no system is perfect especially ones trying to model a licenced product where things happen in the original media because someone decided it would look cool.

I don`t really have a big problem with the split, I actually kind of like it. I don`t think people really get what I am asking(that might be my fault). What I am asking is; What incentive do characters with higher Vigilance than Cool have for preparing for a fight or situation?

I guess there is a lot, but I am running my first game tomorrow and I don`t get it yet. Explain it to me?

There is a difference between being prepared for a fight and setting up an ambush. If your party know where and when the bad guys will be then that is an ambush, if your party have low cool then they are not very good at that sort of thing. If they only know that somepoint during the mission some bad guys will probably appear then that would still be vigilance as they are still reacting rather than acting. Realistically if no one has a decent cool skill then they shouldn't try to ambush people though as a ref I might be inclined to give them a few boost dice if they come up with a decent plan.

I still don`t get how being prepared and ready is a bad thing. If a character has really high Vigilance and really low Cool, it`s a bad thing for him or her to be prepared for what is comming. I would get it if the player could choose to roll cool if he or she wanted in that situation.

Shouldn`t being prepared always be a good thing, even for more vigilant characters? Forget guard duty, I`m vigilant!

I like the thought of having two skills for initiative, I just don`t get how it is explained or handled, it makes little sense to me, narratively and mechanically.

A person with a low Cool but a high Vigilance could psyche themselves out but when put on the spot they could preform. Just because you have more time to prepare doesn't mean you are more prepared. Preparation time unnerves someone who worries and can make them less able to react. The way I would explain it is like this. Let's say you have to give a presentation.

The teacher/boss assigned the presentation to you a day in advance. This is where you would roll your Cool. If you roll low, you'll be chewing your fingernails and have butterflies in your stomach while you're anticipating the presentation and over analyzing what you're going to say. When it comes time, you stand in front of the group. Your palms sweat. You feel sick. You stumble over your first few words, a joke but no one laughs.

Same example, but you roll high on your Cool check. You look over your notes with pride. You got this. You know what you're going to say and do in front of the group. When it's time, you stride up to the front of the group with a smile. You open with a joke and everyone laughs. You already have them eating out of your hand.

Vigilance would be the same examples, but you were called on to give the presentation at the spur of the moment. You just have to get up there and start talking. No time to over analyze what you're going to say. You have to get up there and start talking.

With a low Vigilance you would sputter over your words. "But... I'm not ready for this... I don't know what to say... I need time to gather my thoughts." A high Vigilance would just jump in and start giving the presentation as if they had spent all night preparing.

I hope this helps.

If the players carefully planned an ambush, and the targets failed a Perception roll or whatever to detect it, I'd certainly give them a free round of attacks. After that it's still Vigilance for the targets and Cool for the ambushers.

While I agree with you 110% and this is what my group does, "surprise" rounds are not supported by the rules and this would be considered a house rule. What would be supported by the rules would be to give the prepared group boost dice to show the preparation and/or the ambushed group setback dice depending on how unawares they were caught. You would run the first round as always, the highest slot going first. If a target rolled highest, then they get to act before the ambushers. This doesn't mean that the target sees the ambushers, just that their spidy-sense is tingling. They would be able to look for the ambush and warn their friends that something might be up or even duck behind some cover or use defensive talents. If they don't see the ambush then they would probably say something like the classic "did you hear that" line the bad guys always get off in the movies before the hero jumps them.

Another thing to remember is that the CRB also says, if in doubt use vigilance.

I never noticed that, we always assumed that Cool was the default since our characters are usually expecting trouble. Have a page number on that?

I never noticed that, we always assumed that Cool was the default since our characters are usually expecting trouble. Have a page number on that?

EotE page 199, in the "Cool or Vigilance?" sidebar, last paragraph.

I don`t really have a big problem with the split, I actually kind of like it. I don`t think people really get what I am asking(that might be my fault). What I am asking is; What incentive do characters with higher Vigilance than Cool have for preparing for a fight or situation?

I guess there is a lot, but I am running my first game tomorrow and I don`t get it yet. Explain it to me?

I would say that there are benefits for planning would be outside of the initiative system.

Better positioning (cover, darkness, etc), pre-combat maneuvers (drawn weapons at least).

If the target NPC's haven't found the ambushing PC's, if NPC's win initiative, what are they going to attack?

This conversation has also made me look at the two skills slightly differently.

Cool is the skill of preparing for one thing.

Vigilance is the skill of being prepared for anything.

I am glad its being discussed.
What would happen if a character tried to sneak behind an npc and stab in the back hoping to kill the NPC silently and quickly. Would you roll Stealth to hide, but then both Cool and Melee to stab?

If there are any resources of developers talking about using the Cool skill feel free to link it. I have no idea how much is on the d20 radio

One thing that's been being thrown around with being well defined, I think, is what "expecting the attack" actually means. I could be wrong, but some people seem to be taking it as "I'm an Nar Shaddaa, naturally I expect to be mugged." where as others are using it more like "They have weapons out and don't like us, they'll probably attack once we enter." and for some "We're going to hide here until they come by, then shoot them."

Depending on which one of these you use (as well as the nature of your game) the ratio of Cool to Vigilance initiatives can vary wildly.

In relation to the 'default to vigilance' and 'free attack round' suggestions, the house rule I posted is not unlike that, except that it's based on the idea that rounds are more than a single shot, so only the most flat footed enemy or excellent ambush would allow an entire round's worth of shooting occur before anyone responds, and that it's possible to flub initiating combat, telegraphing it (or waiting to long) to the point you give your opponents an advantage.

I'd say it depends on when you think combat (i.e., "structured gameplay") should begin, which ultimately is up to the GM. If the PCs are walking through a jungle and come across a hidden tripwire, would you have them roll Initiative, or would you have them just roll Perception to determine whether or not they see the tripwire first? If a sniper is hiding in a balcony of a building somewhere, with a bead on one of the PCs standing in the street, and the PCs are completely oblivious of this fact, wouldn't it make sense to have "combat" start AFTER the sniper made his first shot? If the PCs are in a cave and there's cave-in, would you have them roll Initiative just so they could place a permacrete detonator on the rubble to blow it up, or would you just have them do it?

There's no set-in-stone rule as to when to initiate structured gameplay; it's up to the GM. In the case of the tripwire, it doesn't matter what every character is doing on a turn by turn basis, it only matters whether or not they see the tripwire before they trip it. After that, sure, roll Initiative so everyone can act in an organized manner. Basically, if the PCs have no information that would tell them that "combat" is about to start, why have them roll Initiative? Just have the event start, and THEN have structured gameplay start, if it's required.

The opposite can also be true, depending on the situation. If the GM has planned an elaborate encounter, where certain planned events happen sequentially in a very organized way, then yeah, I'd have everyone roll for Initiative, even if they have no idea what's about to happen. And that's because planned or sequential events NEED to be under "structured gameplay" so you can determine the order in which events happen.

This does not go against RAW, since there's nothing in RAW which states that certain things MUST work under "structured gameplay", as opposed to "narrative gameplay" (see pages 197-198 of the CRB for a definition of these terms). It's all situational, and, ultimately, up to the GM.

Seriously? This horse was dead two years ago.

Well, FFG releasing Zombie Apocalypse must have revived it...

Seriously? This horse was dead two years ago.

There are always new players to the game...

I've already discussed it so no one else should! (/sarcasm)

Seriously? This horse was dead two years ago.

This horse has risen from the dead and must be beaten!

I am glad its being discussed.

What would happen if a character tried to sneak behind an npc and stab in the back hoping to kill the NPC silently and quickly. Would you roll Stealth to hide, but then both Cool and Melee to stab?

If there are any resources of developers talking about using the Cool skill feel free to link it. I have no idea how much is on the d20 radio

The common response I've seen on this is just Stealth and then describe the results. A one on one scene to stealthily dispatch a mook shouldn't be too reliant on the combat rules.

I am glad its being discussed.

What would happen if a character tried to sneak behind an npc and stab in the back hoping to kill the NPC silently and quickly. Would you roll Stealth to hide, but then both Cool and Melee to stab?

If there are any resources of developers talking about using the Cool skill feel free to link it. I have no idea how much is on the d20 radio

The common response I've seen on this is just Stealth and then describe the results. A one on one scene to stealthily dispatch a mook shouldn't be too reliant on the combat rules.

You could even let the Stealth stand in for combat (success = damage, etc) ...if they fail the Stealth then it's back to Cool and Vigilance.

If it was a Nemesis though, unless a successful Triumph was rolled, I'd probably have the success and advantages from Stealth be applied to the Cool roll 1:1; or give the player the option to do that, or use any Advantages as per the normal combat rules. Then it would be Cool vs Vigilance and into Melee.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but one thing I continuously see a lot of players and GMs doing is just saying, "Oh, you rolled highest for initiative? You go first!"

That's not really how it works, there is an extra step.

Combatants roll for initiative, they get an "order", but the PCs get to decide who goes when, based on the previously-rolled "orders".

Just because your Politico with the Holdout Blaster rolled highest on initiative, he/she/they/it doesn't have to go first, they can hand that slot to the Gadgeteer with the Heavy Blaster Rifle, who came up with the worst Vigilance check after being surprised by the muggers in the alleyway.

I think if the conversation is something that has been discussed before, can send a link.

If cant expect you to find it cant expext others. But even otherwise, im sure each conversation has different perspextives and ideas from different people, different people also understand things differently and different GMs would most certainly use initiative differently regardless of what was or will be said

The one thing I don't see people doing on here, but that we do in our games, is apply penalties/bonuses based on the situation. Sure, you may be rolling your super-skilled up Vigilance, but you were surprised (you failed the perception check, 1 black on init), it was dark (1 black), they set up a professional ambush (turn a black to Red). If you don't get at least one net success, you don't act this turn at ALL. You are glad you improved your Vigilance skill because it gives you a reasonable chance of acting effectively, but there is never a time where you WANT to be surprised at the start of combat.

The one thing I don't see people doing on here, but that we do in our games, is apply penalties/bonuses based on the situation. Sure, you may be rolling your super-skilled up Vigilance, but you were surprised (you failed the perception check, 1 black on init), it was dark (1 black), they set up a professional ambush (turn a black to Red). If you don't get at least one net success, you don't act this turn at ALL. You are glad you improved your Vigilance skill because it gives you a reasonable chance of acting effectively, but there is never a time where you WANT to be surprised at the start of combat.

Which is essentially the inverse of the method I suggested, which given that it's a simple opposed check, is essentially identical. (bonuses from ambushing/situations, rather than penalties from being ambushed/situations). There's also nothing which states failing initiative results in no action, otherwise all those 1 & 2 willpower characters with no vigilance are going to be missing a lot of first turns, even without a setback or upgrade. (also upgrading difficulty doesn't change blacks to red, it would add a purple)