[Humor]Hi I'm a Jason Bourne fanboy, this is probably my 6th thread on the FFG boards about that

Everyone: Hi[/Humor] (for those not getting the attempt at humor, it's meant to mimic a recovering addicts program like AA)

I'm the GM but if I ever got to play as a player I would want to play a character "named" Jacen Baurne, who was severely injured on a job protecting a hutt, caught in an explosion, lost both arms at the forearms, shrapnel to the face/brain, woke up in a bacta tank not knowing who he was, after brief interaction with the Hutt whose life he saved the Hutt realizes he can keep the character working for him at cut rate pay by claiming he has to work off the bill for his medical care and using the secret of his real identity as leverage. The character got his face repaired via plastic surgery but doesn't recognize it (not the original) and his repli-limb prosthetic forearms/hands don't have finger prints, and if his DNA was in any data base, the Hutt's slicer's must have removed it. I'd provide some parameters about the character's backstory and have the GM fill in the details that I'd discover through roleplaying the character.

Unfortunately, Jason Baurne is pretty much impossible to build via just one or two or 3 official specs so I made up two of my own custom specs: "soldier:spec ops"

http://www.mediafire.com/view/0npk54fi2lupnq1/SoldierSpecOps5.pdf

and "spy:agent" http://www.mediafire.com/view/vd69ka576bl2rq9/SpyAgent8WithTalentTree.pdf

and I'm making them available to my players to take, so far noone's taken them (one of my players would likely be the GM if I were to play as a player) which would suggest they weren't too badly overpowered/unbalanced. But what do you think?

The build history would be soldier:spec ops/Agent/demolitionist http://www.mediafire.com/view/sorvujj7oxt3r63/Demolitionist.pdfb(if the character ever got to a third clash. He'd start with 3's in Brawn, Agility, Cunning, and Will power. I've tried to make them not to powerful. So what's your take?

Ok so an awful lot of you have read this thread (~45 or 46, depending on whether it counted my return visit), but none of you have left a comment, so I'll ask a few direct questions

1) does spec ops seem appropriate as a starting spec for "Jason Bourne"? In terms of what I was going for: the character Jason was special forces before he was a spook, and one of the defining features of Jason Bourne is he is great at unarmed combat. He also seems to be able to take a lot of punishment, (togehter those are the right two columns of the tree), and fire arms are secondary focus (the left column), the second from left column was intended to be he's "well rounded." I'm debating about whether quick draw should be in the tree, but a defining feature of Jason Bourne is that he is just plain fast which I tried to capture with superior reflexes, quick strike, and quick draw.

2) does the spec ops tree seem appropriate for a generic spec ops character (meaning not only Jason Bourne)? Read the description on the first page for the fluff of the role I think a generic spec ops character would fill. Of course just because that's what I was aiming for doesn't mean my interpretation is any better than yours.

Yes it has pressure point as a 25 xp talent, and yes it is the only spec other than doctor to have pressure point. At first glance it might seem odd, but if you were trying to make a character who could sneak up behind a sentry and choke them out without them making any noise, how would you do it? and thematically what type of character would do that? I think spec ops or perhaps an infiltrator. Infiltrator doesn't have pressure point but it has a combination of talents that sort of mimics it and it (spy) doesn't have medicine as a career skill... the soldier career does which is one of the reasons pressure point seemed (to me) so thematically appropriate for a soldier:spec ops specialization.

3) does the spec ops tree seem balanced to you? yes it has pressure point and deadly accuracy, and that makes me stop and go hmm, but they aren't close to each other, pressure point is a 25 xp talent (compared to 15 xp for doctor), and deadly accuracy is a 15 xp talent what you have to go down over and back up for which makes bee-lining for it more expensive than I think any other specs that has deadly accuracy. It has enduring as a 20 xp talent compared to other specs that have it as a 15 xp or 25 xp (or in the case of gunner I think a 10 xp talent), it has well rounded as a 10 xp talent (that you have to go down and over) which makes bee-lining for it 5 xp cheaper than other specs that have it as a 15 xp talent, but the archeaologist has well rounded as a 5 xp talent. other than those I think the right 3 columns of the tree have fairly standard xp costs for talents. The left column (the ranged column) is severely over priced, 25 xp for a first copy of side step (I think bodyguard has it for 10), 20 xp for quick draw (the next most expensive quick draw is 15 xp, and the cheapest is 5 xp), 15 xp for spare clip is either standard or perhaps slightly high. So on the whole I think the individual pricing for talents is fair, but is the combo too good?

4) does the spy:Agent spec seem balanced and thematically appropriate to you? I'm less worried about/more confident that I got it right for this spec. It was primarily designed as a starting spec for James Bond (a mostly Daniel Craig Bond with a dash of Pierce Brosnan Bond), but a secondary consideration was as a second spec for Jason Bourne. This would represent when Jason Bourne joined treadstone.

I think spec ops -> agent makes a decent Bourne and agent -> spec ops makes a decent Bond, at least that was the intent.

5) does spec ops -> agent -> demolitionist (official spec from dangerous covenants) yields a pretty mature Jason Bourne in your opinion, if not, what official spec would you choose as the third spec?

I chose demolitionist on the basis of skills, enduring, 2 toughness, 3 grit, rapid reaction (Jason is fast, and usually acts first), time to go (again jason is fast), and improvised explosive (anything improvised seems like the out of the box thinking that Jason Bourne is known for) I also think that selective detonation is representative of the out of the box calculated risks that Jason would take (like when in the Bourne Identity he jumped down several flights at the center of a stairwell firing as he went with a dead body to break his fall).

So now that I've elaborated a bit more and asked specific questions... what are your thoughts?

Right. I'm obviously not as familiar with the Bourne universe or his history as you are, I've seen the films and that's it.

To be frank I don't see why you would need a new spec. Bourne is obviously very experienced and has dipped into different types of specs.

We know he's skilled at unarmed combat and good with ranged (light) weapons, and he's stealthy.

Assassin could be a good fit, but he would be missing ranged (light) - so add the recruit uni spec?

Marauder is a good one too, particularly if combined with Assassin.

To me it is kind of obvious that you can't start a game as Jason Bourne, unless you're going knight level and granting extra XP to buy extra stuff. Even then it'd be a rather stripped down version compared to the experience and beard of Bourne, but you have to start somewhere, and you know, it's about the journey Remember, Bourne didn't remember anything (at least in the films) and things came back over time, which could be a good way to explain the lack of skills and talents of a starting character being such an experienced agent.

I'll have to look closer at the specs you've provided, but I'm not entirely convinced this is needed.

As for why custom specs... I tried building him with official specs and it took 5 of them... there's no way a campaign I was playing in would last that long, I could see perhaps 2 specs or 3 if I were super lucky. I would like to have a decent Bourne before the end of a campaign

Same issue as I have seen with Jedis and "padawan" specs. People ascribe so much ability because of their perception of the concept that they need a spec with cherry picked talents in order to achieve it. Might be fine for home brew but it is not something I feel is lacking in the game myself. Opinions vary enough for Star Wars characters and such. Try to bring in a concept from outside the franchise and you will have that much more variance in concepts. Just imagine how different everyone's Batman would be. Hell even in games like M&M I've seen a vast variance in how Batman is built and that is without specs. If your GM is okay with homebrew go for it.

As for why custom specs... I tried building him with official specs and it took 5 of them... there's no way a campaign I was playing in would last that long, I could see perhaps 2 specs or 3 if I were super lucky. I would like to have a decent Bourne before the end of a campaign

I have to ask now, what 5 specs, and why those 5? What is it that is essential to Bourne that needs 5 different specs?

I can see a decent Bourne with just Assassin/Recruit (Creative Killer is definitely a Bourne talent ) or Marauder/Recruit - granted the latter doesn't give you stealth.

If you look to AoR I can see a decent Bourne in Commando/Infiltrator - adding Recruit if necessary, or just to get that Creative Killer talent

As for why custom specs... I tried building him with official specs and it took 5 of them... there's no way a campaign I was playing in would last that long, I could see perhaps 2 specs or 3 if I were super lucky. I would like to have a decent Bourne before the end of a campaign

Okay, I've never seen any of those movies but I have to question why anything would take five specifications! I suspect you are looking at each specialization and thinking it's required for Cothe character to be a bit like that. This is wrong. If I wanted to build James Bond as a character, I would start with something like Commando and add in other skills as necessary. James Bond flies a plane at one point. Does he require an Ace specialization for that? No, he just flies the plane. He would require the Ace specialization if I were building Sky Captain. He can still fly a plane without a specialization in it.

As for why custom specs... I tried building him with official specs and it took 5 of them... there's no way a campaign I was playing in would last that long, I could see perhaps 2 specs or 3 if I were super lucky. I would like to have a decent Bourne before the end of a campaign

I have to ask now, what 5 specs, and why those 5? What is it that is essential to Bourne that needs 5 different specs?

I can see a decent Bourne with just Assassin/Recruit (Creative Killer is definitely a Bourne talent ) or Marauder/Recruit - granted the latter doesn't give you stealth.

If you look to AoR I can see a decent Bourne in Commando/Infiltrator - adding Recruit if necessary, or just to get that Creative Killer talent

The reason being that Jason Bourne is intended to be the Uber-mench by the author (not of the post, of the character).

I think that a true Jason Bourne character would require that much XP to justify all of what he does in the various media surrounding him. I am sorry Elias, that doesn't answer your question but I find the character to be too overpowered for a starting character in any game system, except maybe Aberrant.

If you want advice on your spec ops specialization I would suggest asking DonovanMorningfire. It may be a harsh criticism, but he will raise good points to be aware of.

ok, my concept of bourne from the ground up

can take a licking and keep on ticking

great at hand to hand,

good with firearms,

thinks and acts fast/creative

can blend into a crowd and fade away

spy:infiltrator a lot of what I'd like in terms of creativity (soft spot, clever solution), and stealth, and some quickness (jump up), but no brawling (yes talents but not the skill) and no firearms (no skill or talents) so not a good starting class

commando: yes to brawling, WOW to toughness (but would be better if replaced armor master with enduring and improved amor master with superior reflexes because Bourne didn't wear armor in the movies it really is hard to blend in while wearing heavy armor), sort of to fire arms (but sort of is ok), no to stealth, no to creativity, no perception, no vigilance or cool, so not a good starting class

sharpshooter: yes to brawling (can apply 1 copy of deadly accuracy to brawling, lethal Blows applies, as does crippling blow), awesome to fire arms (perhaps too good), sort of to creativity (brace, quick fix, knowledge(Warfare), but regarding quick fix... how are you going to justify that... did the idea come to you while you were doing yoga?), meh to toughness, no to stealth, has cool as a career skill but that's it for speed, MAYBE this could work as a starting class (the route I would take if I stuck to raw), but very meh on toughness which is a defining characteristic of Bourne, would need recruit to boost toughness/skill set/quickness and infiltrator to boost creativity and brawl (the melee talents to brawling even though the infiltrator doesn't have brawl as a skill) but the progression isn't good, would need a minimum of 3 classes before he starts to look a bit like bourne and he would still be very short on toughness.

marauder: yes to toughness, yes to brawling, sort of to firearms, yes to vigilance, no speed, no creativity, no stealth, no grit, meh as a starting class

assassin: some speed, yes brawling, no ranged light, yes to stealth, no creativity, meh as a starting class

sort of raw: career spy starting spec recruit, good skill set (which is sort of creative), creative killer is sort of creative but only applicable to improvised weapons, can get brawl and ranged light skills for 5 xp but no support beyond that, good strain, good toughness, some quickness (vigilance, cool, jump up, quick draw, maybe you could count dynamic fire), not a "terrible" option as a starting spec but it's not raw, next spec could be infiltrator, but it would be lacking in fire arms.

my custom solider:spec ops spec: yes toughness/survivability, yes brawling, some ranged, some speed, some stealth, sort of creativity (decent skill set, well rounded), except for the creativity a "decent" starting Bourne (in this context "starting" means 1 spec)

my custom spy:agent: some toughness/survivability, sort of brawling (has the skill and defensive stance, could apply deadly accuracy), some quickness, definite yes to the creativity (clever solution, soft spot, being able to lie effectively), definite yes to "crowd stealth" (indistinguishable), sort of to ranged, not a bad starting Bourne except the toughness/survivability and brawling are rather lacking and they are some of Bourne's defining characteristics.

Bourne was special forces before being a spook, so I figured spec ops->Agent would be a better progression than Agent->spec ops and it results in a bigger class skill list but either would work. so 2 classes for a decent bourne

my previous 5 spec statement for Bourne

Character progression session by session assuming 25 xp per session

1. Ranged(light) 3, grit 5; 5 xp leftover

2. Sniper shot (5), True Aim (10), Lethal Blows (15)

3. Deadly accuracy (20) [Ranged(light)]; 5xp leftover

4. Toughened (20), Lethal Blows (10)

5. Dedication (25) [Agility 4]

6. True Aim (15), Expert Tracker (5); 5 xp leftover

7. Ranged(light) 4, Grit (10)

8. Brawl 2, Brawl 3

9. Sniper Shot (15), Deadly Accuracy (10) [brawl]

10. Cool 2, Perception 1; 10 xp leftover

11.Doctor 30 xp [new career skills: Knowledge(Education), Resilience], Grit (5)

12. Surgeon (10), Resolve (10), Resolve (5)

13. Pressure Point (15), Medicine 2

14. Medicine 3, Grit (10)

15. Brawl 4; 5 xp leftover

16. Bacta Specialist (15), Grit (15)

17. Toughened (20); 5 xp leftover

18. Dedication (25) [brawn 4]; 5 xp leftover

19.Commando 30 xp [new career skills: - ]

20. Grit (5), Toughened (5), Physical Training (5), Toughened (10)

21. Durable (10), Armor Master (15)

22. Heroic Fortitude (20); 5 xp leftover

23. Dedication (25) [Cunning 4]; 5 xp leftover

24. Durable (20); 10 xp leftover

25. Unstoppable (25); 10 xp leftover

26. Toughened (20); 15 xp leftover

27. Improved Armor Master (25); 15 xp leftover

28.Infiltrator 40 xp [new career skills: Deception, Skullduggery, Streetwise]

29. Grit (5), Dodge (5), Frenzied Attack (5), Defensive Stance (5); 5 xp leftover

30. Soft Spot (10), Grit (10), Jump Up (10)

31. Dodge (15), Perception 2,

32. Defensive Stance (20), Skullduggery 1

33. Natural Rogue (25)

34. Master of Shadows (25)

35. Clever Solution (25)

36. Dedication (25) [Willpower 4]

37. Natural Brawler (20); 5 xp leftover

38. Toughened (20); 10 xp leftover

39. Improved Stunning Blow (20), Grit (15)

40. ; 25 xp leftover

41.Saboteur 50 xp [new career skills: Coordination, Mechanics, Stealth]

42. Resolve (5), Second Wind (5), Grit (5), Grit (10)

43. Rapid Recovery (5), Second Wind (10), Toughened (10)

44. Powerful Blast (10), Rapid Recovery (15)

45. Resolve 15, Commando:Strong Arm (10)

46. Powerful Blast (20), Stealth 1

47. Master Grenadier (25)

48. Dedication (25) [Agility 5],

49. Ranged Light 5

50. Brawl 5

51. Stealth 1, Medicine 4

52. Medicine 5

53. Cool 3, Perception 2

54. Time To Go (15), Discipline 1 (cross class)

55. Improved Time To Go (20), Streetwise 1,

56. Hard Headed (15), Stealth 2

57. Toughened (20), Mechanics 1

so 5 specs gets a decent Bourne but there is no way a campaign will last that long

Okay can any of you provide some feedback on whether the custom specs are balanced/overpowered?

I was also thinking of minor tweets to the trees.

spy:agent removing mental fortress (25 xp talent) and moving the dedication to where it was, then putting a sixth sense where the dedication was before it got moved, trying to explain why James Bond never gets hit by bullets, and the right half of the tree is the combat half, and dedication should be easily reachable from the social/skill half without going through any combat talents.

For spec ops i'd just fiddle with the left column, grit would be moved to the 5xp slot, quick draw would be moved to the 10 xp slot, and point blank would be moved to the 20 xp slot (next to lethal blows and above side step).

So are the 2 specs better the way they are or with those minor tweaks?

I have never seen the films, so I'm mostly going to speak generically based on your breakdown above.

You might be putting a lot of emphasis on talents and directly translating them to what you see on the film. If a protagonist only spends 1 or 2 scenes in a given saga doing a specific thing, I think you can translate that to a decent skill, a decent ability, or a lucky roll. Obi Wan stealths around in a few scenes throughout the Star Wars saga, but I wouldn't give him half the Shadow tree because of it, I would assume he has a decent agility or a fair stealth pool.

Rather than looking at several talents to make someone good at something (remember talents are often times situational), focus on investing that XP and headache in to characteristics or skills. The rest is narrative flavor from plenty of advantage or triumphs.

I have never seen the films, so I'm mostly going to speak generically based on your breakdown above.

You might be putting a lot of emphasis on talents and directly translating them to what you see on the film. If a protagonist only spends 1 or 2 scenes in a given saga doing a specific thing, I think you can translate that to a decent skill, a decent ability, or a lucky roll. Obi Wan stealths around in a few scenes throughout the Star Wars saga, but I wouldn't give him half the Shadow tree because of it, I would assume he has a decent agility or a fair stealth pool.

Rather than looking at several talents to make someone good at something (remember talents are often times situational), focus on investing that XP and headache in to characteristics or skills. The rest is narrative flavor from plenty of advantage or triumphs.

I agree, Jack of all trades, master of none. Look at the skills and not the talents.

Green Berets are required to know a second language, but are not linguists, they know first aid,but are not full up medics (except the actual medic), they know explosives, but are not Combat Engineers. Since you are looking at a series of movies, take a look at Rambo stitching a cut on his arm up. Does this make him a Medic?

Edit: I forgot that to say, I am playing a Colonist Marshal and I didn't touch my Talents when I initially Gened him up, just skills, he turned out pretty good the first time I played him, but it could have been the dice rolls were lucky, but then again isn't that what its all about?

Jason spent most of all three movies beating other supposedly bad asses down, evading superior numbers, out thinking tactic TEAMS who were supposedly the best at what they did by doing the unexpected, and oh yeah chase scenes galore. It's not just a few scenes... the passing scene that I "ignored" by only giving kills is in the borne ultimatum when he's carrying the sniper rifle.

speaking of rambo, stitching up a cut on his arm doesn't qualify as medic, but he did get shot in his gut in the third movie. he pushed the bullet through, then opened up an unused round poured the powder in his wound an lit it to cauterize the wound, that "might" qualify as a medic but probably not. Still rambo probably had a few ranks in medicine. But rambo does have a super power, he can make guns appear out of thin air and never runs out of ammo . Personally I'd call those the spare clip talent and maybe a utility belt talent.

Edit:I know I could get a bit of hate for this, but Jason Bourne might be able to take on Batman. Batman is the master planner, he's got you beat before the fight even starts, but Jason is the uber outside the box "lateral thinker" in the heat of the moment he might be able to pull some wild and crazy idea out of his arse that Batman never planned for. Batman is probably a slightly better fighter but Jason could take more punishment. Jason also has no reservations about killing or using firearms

Jason spent most of all three movies beating other supposedly bad asses down, evading superior numbers, out thinking tactic TEAMS who were supposedly the best at what they did by doing the unexpected, and oh yeah chase scenes galore. It's not just a few scenes... the passing scene that I "ignored" by only giving kills is in the borne ultimatum when he's carrying the sniper rifle.

speaking of rambo, stitching up a cut on his arm doesn't qualify as medic, but he did get shot in his gut in the third movie. he pushed the bullet through, then opened up an unused round poured the powder in his wound an lit it to cauterize the wound, that "might" qualify as a medic but probably not. Still rambo probably had a few ranks in medicine. But rambo does have a super power, he can make guns appear out of thin air and never runs out of ammo . Personally I'd call those the spare clip talent and maybe a utility belt talent.

Edit:I know I could get a bit of hate for this, but Jason Bourne might be able to take on Batman. Batman is the master planner, he's got you beat before the fight even starts, but Jason is the uber outside the box "lateral thinker" in the heat of the moment he might be able to pull some wild and crazy idea out of his arse that Batman never planned for. Batman is probably a slightly better fighter but Jason could take more punishment. Jason also has no reservations about killing or using firearms

The point was not about Rambo, but more to the point you are over thinking the Jason thing, but hey just go ahead and do what you want to do with with that character. Why not do Sam Fisher, Jack Ryan and James Bond, you and your party would really be unstoppable then.

Not to speak for everyone on the forums, but I feel the reason that it took so long to respond and basically a poke from you to get those responses is that you are min/maxing. Subjects like this one come all the time and what happens is the OP usually sticks to their guns and the opinions asked for are generally ignored. Do what you would like to do.

The responsese I have gotten are "custom classes are usually not needed and a bad idea because they usually tend to be imbalanced/overpowered" (paraphrasing and extrapolating). I've also gotten some feedback to the effect "yeah Jason Bourne might take 5 official specs because the author of the character made him an 'Uber-mench'"

What I would like but haven't gotten is feedback on whether these particular classed are overpowered/balanced and whether people thought that they captured the "flavor" of Jason Bourne.

I am trying to get a good/great immitation of the flavor of Bourne in 2 classes while still being balanced... as an analogy to food think of the movie Bourne as being an extremely large helping (several days worth of calories) of a particular dish, and I'must trying to get that particular dish but only a much smaller serving (an FDA recommended number of calories). In this case calories represents power level

Another analogy is going to a buffet. The good part of a buffet is that you get to choose what you like to eat. The bad part of a buffet, is that people generally put too much food on their plate (I did that at lunch yesterday). Again I am trying to limit the number of calories (power level)

2 of us have stated that the specs are to much and would take forever to get. Bourne is an assassin career talent wise that learned skills. You just don't need all of those talents.

You could put all of those talents and not have good skills and never beat a person with those same points in the skills and not in the talents. Put all of those points in the skills and it would be more realistic. Try it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

So additional thoughts, maybe removing enduring from the agent in favor of a sixth sense, replacing mental fortress with "intense focus" (a more lateral thinking" type talent). And in both specs i'm thinking of replacing one grit with a rapid recovery. Lower threshold but more about endurance and speed.

People always tend to dump on custom specs in these forums. The default assumption seems to be that anyone who is making a custom spec must have cherry-picked talents they liked from other specs and just doesn't want to put the time and effort in to multi-spec.

My personal thinking is that a custom spec should have some cool schticks that are unique to it, rather than simply being a mere agglomeration of talents from other specs. With that in mind, you could probably get a serviceable Bourne with Assassin, Infiltrator, and maybe Marauder. But if you like the specs and your GM approves (if you get to play), go for it!

People always tend to dump on custom specs in these forums. The default assumption seems to be that anyone who is making a custom spec must have cherry-picked talents they liked from other specs and just doesn't want to put the time and effort in to multi-spec.

Sadly, a number of custom specs that have shown up on these boards were instances of the designer simply cherry-picking the talents that they thought would be coolest to have for their character, or to simply be "one stop shopping" for various "cool talents," with an utterly abysmal hack of a "Jedi Apprentice" universal specialization being a stellar example of why folks tend to crap on custom specs. There have been a couple good ones, but those are far and very few between. I've gotten flak for the custom specs I introduced in my Ways of the Force fan supplement, and I'll freely admit they were far from perfect, with the Jedi Initiate one being particularly troublesome, even now as I try to revise it to account for the new mechanics introduced in Force and Destiny, which is quite difficult in terms of keeping the Jedi Initiate spec from simply being "too good," although I think I've addressed most of the concern so that it's not a "why wouldn't my PC take this spec?!" type of deal, but there's still plenty more work to be done before I consider it ready for public release.

As for Elias' specs, I think it is a case of him trying to shoehorn too much of what the character does into talents and not enough into skills. From his posts over on the d20 Radio forums, he's always been about the crunchy side of things (comes with him being an engineer in his day job), so it's quite possible that when he sees Jason Bourne pull off some stunt in the films, his mind goes to "he obviously has Talent X" rather than "okay, so that was a well-narrated use of Brawl that also triggered the Disorient 1 quality on his unarmed attack." Admittedly, I've not looked at them, so I can't really comment on their quality, but I do question the need for them since there are existing AoR specs that can cover much of the basics with the rest being covered by the PC simply having really high ranks in key skills.

Then again, replicating what a character from a film can do in an RPG has always been a tricky business. I remember seeing a stat block for Aragorn from Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, and dear lord did that guy have a laundry list of stuff to cover everything that Aragorn was capable of. And I suspect that if FFG ever tried to do write-ups of the characters from the Star Wars films that tried to cover everything they did on the screen, you're likely to wind up with a similar laundry list for each character, one that undoubtedly be torn apart by the community with complaints of how FFG "got it wrong" and how Han should or shouldn't have Talent Y based upon Chapter K in Book Whatever.

People always tend to dump on custom specs in these forums. The default assumption seems to be that anyone who is making a custom spec must have cherry-picked talents they liked from other specs and just doesn't want to put the time and effort in to multi-spec.

Sadly, a number of custom specs that have shown up on these boards were instances of the designer simply cherry-picking the talents that they thought would be coolest to have for their character, or to simply be "one stop shopping" for various "cool talents," with an utterly abysmal hack of a "Jedi Apprentice" universal specialization being a stellar example of why folks tend to crap on custom specs. There have been a couple good ones, but those are far and very few between. I've gotten flak for the custom specs I introduced in my Ways of the Force fan supplement, and I'll freely admit they were far from perfect, with the Jedi Initiate one being particularly troublesome, even now as I try to revise it to account for the new mechanics introduced in Force and Destiny, which is quite difficult in terms of keeping the Jedi Initiate spec from simply being "too good," although I think I've addressed most of the concern so that it's not a "why wouldn't my PC take this spec?!" type of deal, but there's still plenty more work to be done before I consider it ready for public release.

As for Elias' specs, I think it is a case of him trying to shoehorn too much of what the character does into talents and not enough into skills. From his posts over on the d20 Radio forums, he's always been about the crunchy side of things (comes with him being an engineer in his day job), so it's quite possible that when he sees Jason Bourne pull off some stunt in the films, his mind goes to "he obviously has Talent X" rather than "okay, so that was a well-narrated use of Brawl that also triggered the Disorient 1 quality on his unarmed attack." Admittedly, I've not looked at them, so I can't really comment on their quality, but I do question the need for them since there are existing AoR specs that can cover much of the basics with the rest being covered by the PC simply having really high ranks in key skills.

Then again, replicating what a character from a film can do in an RPG has always been a tricky business. I remember seeing a stat block for Aragorn from Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, and dear lord did that guy have a laundry list of stuff to cover everything that Aragorn was capable of. And I suspect that if FFG ever tried to do write-ups of the characters from the Star Wars films that tried to cover everything they did on the screen, you're likely to wind up with a similar laundry list for each character, one that undoubtedly be torn apart by the community with complaints of how FFG "got it wrong" and how Han should or shouldn't have Talent Y based upon Chapter K in Book Whatever.

Donovan, you always know how to decipher what others are trying to say. Its about the skills that are learned not the talents necessarily.

Talents are more of a natural aptitude for a skill. Skills are both learned and natural. Hence I keep saying that Bourne is an assassin and learned other skills. People keep forgetting that you pick a career, you naturally pick up the skills and talents assigned to that career. The other skills that Bourne used were also learned but they were not his primary job. Now as he grows in his career he can branch into other talents as he learns but never changes his career. RAW is that you can't multi-career but as you're experience goes up you can buy into a talent tree and those talents. But, if you think about it, if you don't increase in the skills the talents really don't help much. So concentrate on the skills first.

Is Bourne good at melee? Hell Yeah, he has an excellent brawn, and melee. Is he a good shot? Hell yeah agility is high along with ranged light and heavy. Is he good at first aid? good at medicine. and so on. All that talents are going to do is give bonuses and setback pretty much. My assassin with a YYGG die in computers has a possibly has better chance than a guy with the slicer talent that has YG with a boost or removal of a set back die. a PC playing an Assassin with a good background narratively is going to sound better than someone that says, "Oh my char is an Assassin/Marauder/Spy...:"

By the way, I just looked up the synopsis of the books and it says Bourne was a Contract Assassin, so his other skills were learned as part of his career. Put him against someone that just studied one thing like sniping and he would more than likely be out classed. But hey, its your character, do what you want, as long as your GM approves.

Interesting. The talents in and of themselves in the specs are not over-powered. It is their cherry-picked nature. The collection of them all in one or two specs is what makes them entirely too attractive and powerful. Every time someone feels they have to cross-spec too much to achieve their concept, we see a custom spec. Others have noted that "Bourne" could be achieved using fewer specs. The fact that the OP feels he needs 5 seems over the top ( the doctor spec being a glaring one I feel is unneccesary). At the same time his character concept that is built using five specs also benefits from five Dedications. You obviously feel they are integral to the concept. How do you propose getting them if not by taking multiple specs? Or are they less integral now that a majority of the talents you want are in two easier taken specs?

Modeling a fictional character should be about the basic concept of the character, not trying to shoehorn every ability seen on screen (and the books for all I know).

A lot of those talents in the 5 spec build weren't integral to the character but I had to get through them to the more essential talents OR were convenient to get with given how close I already had to be to them (to try and make cross spec'ing that much worth it). For example, what I primarily wanted out of infiltrator was clever solution and soft spot to represent bourne's famed lateral thinking (the defensive stance were also interesting), clever solution was hard to get to and once there it's not hard to get improved stunning blow, which coupled with pressure point seems "too good" to me and I'm actually trying to make this balanced.

@mouthymerc: It's not clear to me whether the comment and cherry picked refers to the custom spec or the 5 spec build, please clarify, and if it does refer to the custom specs are either balanced individually and if not what would it take to make them balanced individually, and then what would it take to make them balanced together

What I would like but haven't gotten is feedback on whether these particular classed are overpowered/balanced and whether people thought that they captured the "flavor" of Jason Bourne.

I'm sorry but I can't give you that feedback because the question supposes something that isn't true. It's like asking "fine, I get that everyone keeps telling me that iguana's aren't cats, but please just answer which member of the felidae family I should make it". It's a wrong question, basically. You keep thinking you need specializations to reflect everything a character does. This is wrong. An assassin character who has spent some points on piloting and perhaps a second specialization in Marauder can represent James Bond. He doesn't need and shouldn't have the Pilot specialization.

I get that Jason Bourne is a Mary Sue (from what you're saying -- I haven't seen the films), but even then, they don't need all those specializations just because they do something that vaguely fits. Rambo can remove a bullet without having the Doctor specialization, by just rolling well. Now if we saw him working as a surgeon in a hospital, fine. But we don't so he should not have it.

Sorry, but that's all I can offer in response to your request because you are making assumptions that genuinely do not fit the game concept, imo.

@mouthymerc: It's not clear to me whether the comment and cherry picked refers to the custom spec or the 5 spec build, please clarify, and if it does refer to the custom specs are either balanced individually and if not what would it take to make them balanced individually, and then what would it take to make them balanced together

Your specs being a collection of cherry-picked talents is what I was referring to. As I said I think your concept can be done with what is available now. I don't think a couple of new homebrew specs compiling all the best talents is the way to go myself. You don't need to attribute everything seen on screen to talents and features. As already said by others, much can be done with the right skills and a couple of specs.

The issue isn't that the individual talents are unbalanced, it is their easy access all together in a couple of specs. You're not creating a concept like smuggler/pilot or bounty hunter/ assassin with it, you are creating a couple of specs that do nothing else than just give you all the talents you think you need to play "Bourne". I don't see these specs fitting with any career due to their overlap with so many other specs.

Where do you see these specs fitting in? With which careers? I don't remember if you spoke of this back when you first posted the specs.

@mouthy merc

spec ops is soldier

agent is spy.

theme: agent is clever, skillful, socially stealthy (pick pocket, lying, indistinguishable), shooty spy with the brawl skill, the closest spy in I guess infiltrator (both have soft spot, and clever solution), but infiltrator isn't shooty, doesn't have brawl as a skill, and isn't socially stealthy, I can see an infiltrator wanting to multiclass to agent just to pick up brawl, ranged light, and the social spy talents on the left side of the tree. So I see a definite home for Agent, and by it's lonesome I don't think agent is imbalanced/too good due to being cherry picked.

spec ops... you may have a point of overlap with other soldier specs, is the pressure point talent what pushes it over the top in terms of cherry picked combinations or without that would it still be too good?.