It is true if they ever come out with an SSD the rebels now will not be able to field something even close to her size class, which isnt a bad thing but a bigger Home One would have at least allowed the rebels to not lose out in the spacial warfare department. I know there are EU mon cal designs that would be approaching SSD size but i consider many of these to be but ugly.
Ackbars big pickle is the thing from the movies as it were!
Indeed and it would feel weird if they suddenly make their own ship bigger than Home One to give the rebels something to compete with when Home One was the biggest for a reason. I think they should really reconsider making this a generic MC80a pack and doing Home One justice later. We should make a topic dedicated to that or email them or something. Some way to let them know that this is a little weird.
Edited by GamgeeWell I did send them a customer support email detailing as much to them, i also said its not a huge deal :/
even if it was they would not change it at this point, unless there was an overwhelming majority who thought it was a good idea. They have already made the ship and the cards and have likely begun production.
Though it would be simpler to fix then another ship because they essentially could have a "small" version and keep the stats. But then what would be the point other than to keep there relative scale? i would argue if therye going to do that to give the stats slightly better shielding and more command and squadron buffs but thats just.
Again unless there was a HUGE petition, which doesnt seem likely given the amount of people in this thread who say 'nah' it wont happen. We will just have to come up with solutions on our own. Which is why i will be making a model from scratch
I don't like that "home one" is being made so small. This is a big mistake when the Empire gets its SSD on the tabletop. They should make a standard MC80 and then Home One itself in a separate wave.
The problem with that is all cap ships in the game currently have two variants of a ship type, plus 3 unique titles. If there was a separate Home One expansion with a bigger model, that's all you get - just Home One without any variants.
Personally I'm glad FFG have just done one MC80 model and included Home One as a title. So it might be a little smaller than it could have been, that doesn't bother me in the least; but then I've not read much EU stuff (what I have read I thought was pretty poor TBH) so don't really know any better
On a related note, the fact there is no massive Home One suggests that they might not be doing an SSD for Armada (I just don't see how it can be even closely accurate and retain game balance), but hey, that's a debate for another thread.
Not inlcludeing a very important ship at its appropriate size just because there aremt enough examples to fit into a system where up too this point everyone got 2 variants and 3 titles.
And it wouldnt be hard to create those, afterall is the raider not a completely made up ship with made up variants and titles. That might even work to FFGs advantage.
And there is some debate, though I couldnt say for certain that the Independance Cruiser that Ackbar commands as the Rebel Headquarters before Endor is the only other Home One 'Class'
thats fair that you dont mind or care that the ship is completely off in scale, I cant make you and i wouldnt want too. But you have to understand for those of us who do care Armada is supposed to be a system of relative scale and so things might not be perfect but they look good and are relatively within scale next to eachother.
Can you imagine the outrage if an ISD was slightly smaller than a Victory, and im sure you would no doubt care than?
I envy you your complete disregard for the scale of this one ship but if their not all within some kind of relative for me it breaks immersion big time. And as a note EU does not establish Home Ones size the movies do, im not a huge EU guy either.
As for the SSD argument, i will just touch on this briefly.... again....
I do not think they will make one. Would i like to see one, sure why not.
but i think it would need to be at LEAST 28" to look even close to right, and itd still be off by alot. It would also likely be most a display model.
Unless the completely neuter the thing to make it playable and i dont want that. And your argument of not having a larger home one does ring true somewhat i believe of not making an SSD.
Can you imagine the outrage if an ISD was slightly smaller than a Victory, and im sure you would no doubt care than?
I envy you your complete disregard for the scale of this one ship but if their not all within some kind of relative for me it breaks immersion big time. And as a note EU does not establish Home Ones size the movies do, im not a huge EU guy either.
Don't get me wrong, I think relative scale is important, and I think FFG have got it pretty much spot on so far (going totally on how I perceived the ships from the films). I had never heard of Home One until recently, but I do remember the MC80 in RotJ and always figured it was roughly the same size as an ISD - I never knew exactly if was a little bigger or smaller - and it is roughly the same size in this game, so that's good enough for me.
I mean if its good enough for you fair enough, but you say that just after you say that relative scale is important.
Not to mention you dont even remember the ship?!?!
Its not a normal MC80, i gurantee you if you re watch the movie youll be able to tell the difference.
but im not argueing for perspective. That is literally the worst argument for or against any size dispute in films/media.
The reason i started this thread was because of my perception i had thought the Home One was fairly large (more so than it is, id say 2.2km) but not as large as i now Know it to be.
Not based on perspective at all but relative model proportioning.
That was probably the most compeling evidence i have found, though there is more.
So my preference/perception is that it should be 2.2km about (earlier i had said 3.7km was good but that is fairly large :/)
However it doesnt matter what my perception or your perception, niether of which is backed by anything other than our own opinion, is.
Because I know what the Home One model has to be capable of doing 1200 meters is not good enough for me. I envy you that but at the end of the day i need evidemce and facts.
I'll have to look out for it next time I watch RotJ. I must be about due for a rewatch of the OT, but some of the Bluray changes make me shudder - Nooooooo.
If for nothing else its a great film! Though i do agree edits are bleh. let me know what you think of the Home One in it.
For those of you interested, and I can only imagine its a few XD FFG has gotten back to me.
Here is there response to my inquiry.
"Thank you for taking the time to mail in to Fantasy Flight Games! At present we have no additional expansions to announce, please keep an eye on the website for any change in this, or any additional announcements.
As for sizing— X-Wing is considered a game that is made to scale. Alternately, Armada is created as a Capitol Ship Game, and will not be found to scale.
I hope that helps. Have a great rest of your week!
Best,
Britty Ukestad"
And so that exactly how i expected it to go! I still intemd to do my correct relative scale Home One custom! Watch out for that in the future.
I mean if its good enough for you fair enough, but you say that just after you say that relative scale is important.
Not to mention you dont even remember the ship?!?!
Its not a normal MC80, i gurantee you if you re watch the movie youll be able to tell the difference.
but im not argueing for perspective. That is literally the worst argument for or against any size dispute in films/media.
The reason i started this thread was because of my perception i had thought the Home One was fairly large (more so than it is, id say 2.2km) but not as large as i now Know it to be.
Not based on perspective at all but relative model proportioning.
That was probably the most compeling evidence i have found, though there is more.
So my preference/perception is that it should be 2.2km about (earlier i had said 3.7km was good but that is fairly large :/)
However it doesnt matter what my perception or your perception, niether of which is backed by anything other than our own opinion, is.
Because I know what the Home One model has to be capable of doing 1200 meters is not good enough for me. I envy you that but at the end of the day i need evidemce and facts.
Lurtz,
In the theforce.net page you posted earlier in the thread, the author compares a CR90 Corvette that flies close to the Home one to calculate the total length of the Home One. The author comes to the conclusion the Home One is at least 3.15km long based on the 150 meter corvette.
What the author missed here is that the particular ship is not a CR90, but in stead a Braha'tok-class gunship which at 90 meters is 60% of the the CR90's length. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Braha%27tok-class_gunship
This would make the Home One at least 1.89km in stead of 3.15km. Still a little longer than an ISD, but not quite as long as twice its size and little smaller than the 2.2km you feel it should be. Though 2.2km is exactly 60% of 3.7km, so you could argue that the gunship is much closer to the camera than the Home One in the shot above.
Didn't see this argument in the thread before so at least you can take this in account when creating your own version.
Edited by njbultersOn a tangentially related topic, how do we pronounce 'Executor'?
Like 'Executioner'?
Or like 'Executive'?
I mean, I WANT it to sound like Executioner. But it's not the right word. The only time I've seen the word 'Executor' is like, the executor of someone's will. And it's pronounced like Executive.
I mean if its good enough for you fair enough, but you say that just after you say that relative scale is important.
Not to mention you dont even remember the ship?!?!
Its not a normal MC80, i gurantee you if you re watch the movie youll be able to tell the difference.
but im not argueing for perspective. That is literally the worst argument for or against any size dispute in films/media.
The reason i started this thread was because of my perception i had thought the Home One was fairly large (more so than it is, id say 2.2km) but not as large as i now Know it to be.
Not based on perspective at all but relative model proportioning.
That was probably the most compeling evidence i have found, though there is more.
So my preference/perception is that it should be 2.2km about (earlier i had said 3.7km was good but that is fairly large :/)
However it doesnt matter what my perception or your perception, niether of which is backed by anything other than our own opinion, is.
Because I know what the Home One model has to be capable of doing 1200 meters is not good enough for me. I envy you that but at the end of the day i need evidemce and facts.
Lurtz,
In the theforce.net page you posted earlier in the thread, the author compares a CR90 Corvette that flies close to the Home one to calculate the total length of the Home One. The author comes to the conclusion the Home One is at least 3.15km long based on the 150 meter corvette.
What the author missed here is that the particular ship is not a CR90, but in stead a Braha'tok-class gunship which at 90 meters is 60% of the the CR90's length. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Braha%27tok-class_gunship
This would make the Home One at least 1.89km in stead of 3.15km. Still a little longer than an ISD, but not quite as long as twice its size and little smaller than the 2.2km you feel it should be. Though 2.2km is exactly 60% of 3.7km, so you could argue that the gunship is much closer to the camera than the Home One in the shot above.
Didn't see this argument in the thread before so at least you can take this in account when creating your own version.
Battle of Endor has compleatly ****** up ship scale. In one scene corvette appears to be 1/10th of the size of Nebulon B
On a tangentially related topic, how do we pronounce 'Executor'?
Like 'Executioner'?
Or like 'Executive'?.
The dictionaries I have look it up in (including the OED) say that pronouncing it like executioner is an archaic, but valid pronunciation for the English word "Executer". Not that English really matters for the name of an interstellar warship from another galaxy thousands of years ago in a fictitious universe that deliberately ignores logic and common sense in order to do "cool" stuff.
TLDR, like executioner is fine.
for those few interested. a correct relative scale. very WIP
..... I'm at a loss for words at all of this scale complaining
That scale looks very awesome indeed. Good luck!
For those that are interested mel was kind enough to make an alternative to the Home One model on shapeways in two sizes to reflect the larger scale of Home One compared to the ISD and other ships.
Some Pics of it painted and for scale.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1346338/mel-miniatures-custom-3d-printed-ships-and-squadro/page/23
So, i started this thread because i was unsure as to what the actual size of the Home one was. This is my favorite original trilogy ship and so i felt it deserved looking into. I have asked the community to offer me any evidence that the apparent FFG size of the ship was accurate so far i haven't really found or been given any evidence that this is the case.
Again this has all stemmed from watching the movies and seeing the Home One and saying. That thing is massive, like bigger than an SD, massive.
I have done my own research and have come to the conclusion that the Home One was specifically 3.7km long or TWICE the size of an SD. There are many well thought out and researched arguments, an overwhelming number really, that conclude with this.
However the most compelling argument that i found which is supported absolutely in the movie and just strait up proves it is this.
The Home one has a number of wing hangers aboard its sides. These are clearly seen and open in the films. We are taken into one of these hangers which house the captured lambha class shuttle a known entity with a verifiable height. So we know for the shuttle to fit in that hanger the hanger had to be at least as high as the shuttle. If you take that block of height and take a profile shot of the ship and then measure by factors of the hanger on the side of the ship you get your answer. Its verifiable.
Now there is obviously still gonna be nay sayers for various reasons im sure but heres the kicker, an indepedent modding group in an attempt to make a space sim based on star wars with full formed and functioning ships with a high level of detail tried to create the 3d model of the ship. knowing the information they had, for instance that the lambha shuttle had to be able to fit into the side hanger bays they found that the ONLY way for that to be the case was if the size of the ship was, guess what.
3.7km
So this brings me too two things.
one is that im going to be endlessly annoyed by this and i wish i never looked into it.
And the second is that how the hell and why does everyone think its smaller than it is!!
pg 8 has the 3d model.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=82078.140
Definately going to have to modify mine.
All of this is based on one very flawed and incorrect assumption; that the studio models are all made scale to each other. They are not. Nor, to my knowledge, was scale ever really in the minds of the men and women working on them. Oh sure, you can try things like measuring windows, or one model in comparison to another in different shots, but this is still flawed. Watch pretty much any TV show and compare the inside layout of a house to the exterior shots of where they supposedly live and you'll find they must live in a TARDIS.
Even more damning to your technique is that the Falcon alone was built at no less then 3 completely different sizes. Not scales. Sizes. She actually (even accounting for the scale) got larger or smaller no less than 3 times through the original three films. This alone makes it impossible to decide how large a Star Destroyer is based on the scene where the Falcon lands on one, because which size model is canon? And if the Star Destroyer can't be gauged, then we can't relate the CR-90 to it, since we have no less then 3 possible sizes for the Star Destroyer. Nor can we figure the Executor off the scenes we're given.
The hanger scene inside Home One shows an A-Wing no larger than the cockpit section of Y-Wing, yet I can pause multiple scenes in Jedi and show the A-Wing is equal to if not larger than an X-Wing.
We , the fans, should really stop trying to argue that we know what size these imaginary ships are. Every argument is, by necessity, based on flawed and insubstantial data. No matter how much time and energy we may take to present a "factual" argument "proving" our outlook correct, it still holds no more legitimacy (in truth, probably less) than FFG or Lucasfilm saying "Nope, it's this big because we say so."
Also, the Lambda shuttles launch and land using the smaller, forward bay of the Star Destroyer, so make sure you're factoring off the correct bay. Mixing up the shuttle bay with the main hanger bay used to board CR-90's would definitely screw up proportions.
All of the above really is just my basis for saying, "Please, stop worrying about size. It really doesn't matter. Even less so in a
sliding scale
game. With respect, what you're trying to do is like trying to catch the wind. Don't look to justify the size of the model you want to use, just use what feels right for you and your opponents.
One thing I can maybe give though, is a reason why the Empire didn't destroy Home One even if she was the massive size you're thinking and clearly the command ship...
The Emperor is a sadist. It isn't enough for him to beat you, he needs to break you. He doesn't just want to kill you, he wants to torture you. Leaving the command staff alive and letting them watch as their entire force is slaughtered around them drives home their despair, the futility of what they have tried to do. It hammers home "Your foolishness killed all these people."
It would not shock me (from a character and writer perspective) if the Emperor gave very explicit orders "Save their command ships for last."
It's just my opinion, but I think we can use the order given to the fleet to back it up. They weren't ordered to attack, they were ordered to keep the rebels from escaping. The only purpose this serves is to draw the battle out. Prolong their suffering, if you will.
Just my 2 cents.
so read your first sentence and immediately I face palmed.....
"All of this is based on one very flawed and incorrect assumption; that the studio models are all made scale to each other."
thats incorrect. none of this is based on the scale the models were built at, as you very astutely put, there was no average scale.
I could go through the lines of flawed thinking you go through here, comparing a house set that was only ever an interior to an actual 3d model that was made... etc. but honestly this does not matter that much to me anymore because we now have a model alternative.
I mean what your saying is "dont worry about it and stop trying to justify" you're of course doing exactly that on the opposite spectrum. If you dislike what I consider fact than please continue to use the ffg model and think of the Home One as being smaller than an ISD especially if it doesn't matter to you. :/
It being my favorite ship I do care.
finally if you care to read, but i doubt you do the best evidence to support its size, in fact really the indisputable evidence is this.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=b0b3ba2d304d6a537b32cf6838315dc6&topic=82078.0
Now if you actually look through this thread and still disagree, well fair enough. We disagree then.
I will say that though the arguments in favor are better than against, especially the 3d Model one i linked above as the Main form.
that argument I think is the best against.
that is to say that if the Home One was obviously the command ship of the rebel alliance than why did the emperor (or the DS gunners) not target her first. The answer to that is.
I have no idea.
I could give what i think are reasonable answers, it may have been obscured early in the battle by other mon cal ships or perhaps the Home One wasn't the only one of her class at endor. But idk for sure.
honestly the answer is probably because 'plot armour' the same reason the rebels won the day against "a HUGE fleet and A legion of his best stormtroopers'
and the same reason one A wing pilot blew up a ship that probably was worth the global GDP of a planet.
but I will say its a good argument that for the Home One not being significantly larger. But as my Engineers (any in the house!) will attest the 3D model is too large to overcome.
Edited by LurtzSomeone made a mistake. Either they made a mistake when they made the hangar bay internal too big, or they made a mistake when they made the external too small, or they made a mistake when they gave the ship an official size that conflicted with the sizes of the hangar bay seen on-screen.
The only question is to decide, for yourself, who made the mistake. Personally, I think the guys building the models made the mistake. I'm confident that they never gave a thought to how the comparison between their work (internal and external hangar bays) would force their hand when it came to scale. If LFL (or whoever) says Home One is 1.6kms (or whatever) then that' the size it is, and the size of the hangar bay is a mistake.
EDIT: Star Wars has lots of mistakes. Han's hands were cuffed when he went into the carbonite, but loose when he comes out, the famous 12 parsecs line doesn't make any sense, there shouldn't be any sound in the space battles, the prequels were mistakes, etc. You've just got to gloss over it and enjoy the movies. And the games, in this case.
Edited by Chucknuckle
In a way you're right, as this is fiction and you are free to see it anyway you please, make your own decision on the matter. I fully support that line of thinking given the context. And thankfully now we have options
everyone can be happy.
And then there is my size version
Thanks to adorablerocket for the awesome pictures.
And then there is my size version
Thanks to adorablerocket for the awesome pictures.
I personally don't care too much about scale, but the paint job and panel subtlety ROCK! Almost makes me want to putty up my MC80's.... almost...
There was one model that was deliberately made to scale with another, to avoid having to deal with more work after the filming, and that was the 3rd ISD model, made for shots with the SSD.
The SSD was 8.5 times longer than the model made to be in shots with it.
That amusingly is one that people seem to most want to argue about.