C AND D! Save some points on those cannons and add a third ship.

Different loadouts require different tactics, and different initial obstacle placement and deployment. I am 15-5 on vassal with my "Terminators" BD squad, which is essentially the max DPS that you can get. I talk about it on NOVA podcast episode #20, and soon-to-air #21.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I probably use the segnor's hard turn much more than I would use the free evade than I would get from C. If you are going BC, then Advanced Sensors and PtL or Predator is probably the way to go.

BC with Predator and Sensors is pretty hot. Likely with Manglers so you can still afford Autothrusters/Dampeners. You're getting tons of actions, with Predator on all attacks. You can go very fast or very slow. This list can trade shots more readily than most dual 88s, who should try to avoid incoming fire where possible.

BD with VI, FCS and HLC is also nasty (again Autothrusters are mandatory, plus you can still keep your Dampeners and maintain a 2-pt initiative bid). Having the option to do your S-loop as a bank 3, swap it for a hard 3, or use your dampeners to not move at all is pretty awesome.

In a mirror match or when facing PS6-8 opponents, I think I prefer the BD list with Veteran Instincts. All of the above are good though, as their EPTs match up with the pilot abilities. Outmaneuver is always situational, but when it works it's pretty nasty. I think BD is probably the optimal pairing for Outmaneuver.

C AND D! Save some points on those cannons and add a third ship.

please do

I don't enjoy being scared of these buggers, so some cannonless bouts would be a wonderful relief

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

I've played against it

here's how it goes:

first round of range 3 fire sets the target lock if it doesn't kill you outright

2nd round of fire, about the time when the IGs can trololo over the enemy with a red maneuver especially D's, burns your bum so bad you get ass cancer

all of it seems like overkill, but in reality it's very unlikely that FCS is not generating a crap-ton of hits especially on the first volley. Outmanuever is just the final nail in the coffin for anyone fortunate enough to have got away.

I was not questioning the efficiency of FCS, HLC and Outmaneuver but the utility of B in this particular build. Your exemple doesn't really make him shine.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

Generally that is true. Usually you will either trigger Outmaneuver, or B's ability, sometimes neither, but rarely both.

If both trigger it is usually because I pulled a segnors, have no lock on target, and roll terrible. So B kicks in and you get another 4+TL vs AGI-1 on target. At that point they're hosed. But that probably only happens less than 1 in 10 attacks.

B is really really really good with FCS and HLC at R2-3. Opportunist is really good with your flanking IG88. You probably weren't going to need B's ability at 4v1 vs a B-wing or stressbot Y-wing anyway, so 4v0 from your flanker can be that little extra nudge to TERMINATE a ship that round instead of next.

Kinda what I expected.

Wouldn't you be better with C and D with this particular loadout? Or a mangler cannon instead of the HLC with B+FCS? This way if you do hit with the first strike, that is still a crit instead of a regular hit, and if you miss, you are still shooting with 3 dice+TL, one of those hit being a crit. I just feel that overall, Mangler+B+FCS+Outmaneuver will payoff more than the same thing but with a HLC. Since B ability have more chance to trigger, that should allow you to concentrate even more on defense. Added benefit of freeing 3 points for a proximity mine or a Ion Cannon for added field control.

Just my opinion.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

Wouldn't you be better with C and D with this particular loadout?

No, absolutely not, B is the "stud" of the wave and you need to include him. There are countless times when B triggers even with HLC. You will roll poorly vs even low AGI targets that have you in arc. Eventually I'll run some numbers on it. Eventually.

I would sooner drop down to Mangler than swap out B, but the damage output of HLC is really hard to get rid of. Especially in matchups vs SuperFel, you NEED buzzsaw HLC just to get any damage on SuperFel (PtL thrusters SD). One game I had both my IG88s pointed at Fel at range 3. Fel was full turtle, and my 88's both had focus. 4 attacks later and I managed to get ONE hit on him on the final attack. That was enough, next round I blocked him and finished him off. But if I had Manglers I wouldn't have punched through to break the SD in the first round. You'll have the same problem vs cloaked Phantoms with a focus token. You may only get one good shot on the initial engagement to force them in arc, and you may only get it with one of your ships, so you had better make it count.

Outmaneuver nice when it happens, but you can't bet the farm on it. Many games it may only trigger a couple of times. If another EPT comes along in the future that's better for the build, then I may swap that in instead.

I wish I tracked the number of times that I've rolled all blanks and eyballs with B. Being able to look at that shoddy roll and decide, "No, I'd rather keep my focus and take a chance with the TL on my next attack" is tremendous, especially since rerolled HLC crits stay as crits.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

Wouldn't you be better with C and D with this particular loadout?

No, absolutely not, B is the "stud" of the wave and you need to include him. There are countless times when B triggers even with HLC. You will roll poorly vs even low AGI targets that have you in arc. Eventually I'll run some numbers on it. Eventually.

Or a mangler cannon instead of the HLC with B+FCS? This way if you do hit with the first strike, that is still a crit instead of a regular hit, and if you miss, you are still shooting with 3 dice+TL, one of those hit being a crit. I just feel that overall, Mangler+B+FCS+Outmaneuver will payoff more than the same thing but with a HLC. Since B ability have more chance to trigger, that should allow you to concentrate even more on defense. Added benefit of freeing 3 points for a proximity mine or a Ion Cannon for added field control.

I would sooner drop down to Mangler than swap out B, but the damage output of HLC is really hard to get rid of. Especially in matchups vs SuperFel, you NEED buzzsaw HLC just to get any damage on SuperFel (PtL thrusters SD). One game I had both my IG88s pointed at Fel at range 3. Fel was full turtle, and my 88's both had focus. 4 attacks later and I managed to get ONE hit on him on the final attack. That was enough, next round I blocked him and finished him off. But if I had Manglers I wouldn't have punched through to break the SD in the first round. You'll have the same problem vs cloaked Phantoms with a focus token. You may only get one good shot on the initial engagement to force them in arc, and you may only get it with one of your ships, so you had better make it count.

Outmaneuver nice when it happens, but you can't bet the farm on it. Many games it may only trigger a couple of times. If another EPT comes along in the future that's better for the build, then I may swap that in instead.

Fair enough. I'm personally more a B+Mangler+Predator+AdvSensor but I can see the value of B+HLC+FCS and why you would choose it. Thanks for the explanation.

Boost with large ships work out great. That is also why engine upgrade is so popular. Now of course all Agressors have boost but the free evade works great with the whole action economy. Soontir Fel,is so good not because of the maneuver dial but with PTL he gets an additional focus token that did not have to spend an action on. Being able to do 2 actions is really great.

With the D there is some merit into template manipulation, but pilots like Echo and Lt. Loirr are not the most used even though their pilot ability can be real good in the right conditions.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

Well, you don't need to shoot with your cannon the first time, right? You could choose to attack with your primary weapon, especially at range 3, so you roll one die less, and your opponent rolls one more green die. Then you get the target lock and, if you missed, you can now attack with your HLC + TL, and deny your opponent the range bonus. Of course, that can go wrong and you just generate one hit with your first attack, so it might not be the best option, especially against low-agility ships. But at range three, through an asteroid against an stealth deviced interceptor?

(Maybe in that scenario, you should shoot with your HLC all the time, but you get the general idea).

I've been pretty happy with fcs HLC autothrusters BC. Whenever you need to get out of there the boost+ evade into Autothruster range 3 is really nice. I find that disengaging is way better than trying to get fancy up close. They're just too easy to block.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

Well, you don't need to shoot with your cannon the first time, right? You could choose to attack with your primary weapon, especially at range 3, so you roll one die less, and your opponent rolls one more green die. Then you get the target lock and, if you missed, you can now attack with your HLC + TL, and deny your opponent the range bonus. Of course, that can go wrong and you just generate one hit with your first attack, so it might not be the best option, especially against low-agility ships. But at range three, through an asteroid against an stealth deviced interceptor?

(Maybe in that scenario, you should shoot with your HLC all the time, but you get the general idea).

The best way to counter a gunner ability (other than dodging all shot) is to allow the opponent to touch you for only 1 hit point. The attacker rolled 2 hit, you rolled one evade and have an evade token left: take the hit, keep the evade token for later. That's why my personal choice with B is a Mangler and a Ion Cannon, because both of those cannon punish the opponent if he decide to let the hit go through: either a critical hit or a Ion token. Both of those result is much much worst for an agile ship like Fel than a simple hit. What is more likely to happen is that he will use a token or two to dodge the first shot so now he his more likely to get hit. But he has no choice, a guy like Fel can't allow himslef to get ionized while stressed or a critical. Other thing that makes me favor those cannon over the HLC is the range 1 where I still get to use my cannon if I miss.

Now, call me an optimist, but I will never base my strategy on missing the first time. So I'll prefer to shoot with a cannon that punish my opponent if he choose to get hit over trying to miss so that my big gun get a good shot. So, while your idea could work, I would not rely on that and prefer a strategy less reliant on dice.

My friend keeps running b+d and to be honest it's not that strong, I tried to get him to use b+c but he won't, I've won all but one game against duel aggressors and that loss I had the final aggressor on one hit when I rolled all blanks and drew a direct hit on Corran.

S loops are nice but when you know the ship must turn around to get a shot it makes it alot easier to keep them in arc, turn>green>turn let's more manuverable ships get behind and outfit them.

I am 15-5 on vassal with my "Terminators" BD squad, which is essentially the max DPS that you can get.

DPR, surely?

I am 15-5 on vassal with my "Terminators" BD squad, which is essentially the max DPS that you can get.

DPR, surely?

I'm guessing DPS: Damage Per Shot.

Great discussion!

I am leaning towards D simply because it is the most unique ability. There are lots of ships out there that get an evade or a focus in conjunction with a boost, or boost+action ties into the ship's play. There is no other ship however, that can pull a hard-3-k-turn. It is really novel and you can do some tricks with it! For example, I had one game where an IG was flying next to the board edge. With D you can literally fire backwards while running away (by using the corners of the map).

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

Well, you don't need to shoot with your cannon the first time, right? You could choose to attack with your primary weapon, especially at range 3, so you roll one die less, and your opponent rolls one more green die. Then you get the target lock and, if you missed, you can now attack with your HLC + TL, and deny your opponent the range bonus. Of course, that can go wrong and you just generate one hit with your first attack, so it might not be the best option, especially against low-agility ships. But at range three, through an asteroid against an stealth deviced interceptor?

(Maybe in that scenario, you should shoot with your HLC all the time, but you get the general idea).

Yes, actually, that is a good point. I should math that out, but I suspect that "always try and do as much damage as possible" is still the best course of action.

I am 15-5 on vassal with my "Terminators" BD squad, which is essentially the max DPS that you can get.

DPR, surely?

I'm guessing DPS: Damage Per Shot.

Good catch. I'm used to just using "DPS" from real time games.

But, yeah, lets go with "damage per Shot", thanks for bailing me out.

I am 15-5 on vassal with my "Terminators" BD squad, which is essentially the max DPS that you can get.

DPR, surely?

I'm guessing DPS: Damage Per Shot.

Good catch. I'm used to just using "DPS" from real time games.

But, yeah, lets go with "damage per Shot", thanks for bailing me out.

LoL! You know you can always count on me Major!

I won a 16 person store championship with almost this exact build. I used Major's math/idea though to come to my squad (thanks again).

Now aren't you glad that Roark got 2-shot in that vassal game? Outmaneuver for the win!

I was actually done playing Broark Tactics once Autothrusters came out but I was very thankful for your game and the podcast. I was going to take 3 Sycks and Leeachos with Draw Their Fire. I like the HLC cannon mow down but disliked their survivability. Your build helps do what I was trying to do but with much more survivability.

Terminators

IG-88B: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

IG-88D: Outmaneuver, FCS, HLC, Autothrusters, IG-2000 title

I'm curious about your experience with this build. How often does B ability really trigger? It seems like outmaneuver actually works against the HLC+FCS+B combo by reducing the odds of the opponent dodging the first shot, making your 4 dice+TL shot less likely.

Well, you don't need to shoot with your cannon the first time, right? You could choose to attack with your primary weapon, especially at range 3, so you roll one die less, and your opponent rolls one more green die. Then you get the target lock and, if you missed, you can now attack with your HLC + TL, and deny your opponent the range bonus. Of course, that can go wrong and you just generate one hit with your first attack, so it might not be the best option, especially against low-agility ships. But at range three, through an asteroid against an stealth deviced interceptor?

(Maybe in that scenario, you should shoot with your HLC all the time, but you get the general idea).

This happened to me a few times in my store championship. One time I rolled 1 hit and decided not to focus 2 of them against 4 agility dice. He rolled all blanks! The next turn I dropped his ship down to 2 hull *sigh*. However a few other times it worked that they dodged my shot and then they were faced with 3-4 hits on the BGunner.

Just ran B&C symmetrical build (predator, adv. sensors, mangler cannon, seismic charge, IG2000 Title, Autothrusters) at a local tourney. This list wrecks once the enemy ships' shields are down. Two challenges that I had was Super Dash and another firepower-heavy dual IG build. The 6 PS bid was a bit too low against the Super Dash build. Since Dash ignores asteroid placement, I had little luck deducing the optimal placement to land in Dash's donut hole. The other trouble I had was a B&D IG build that had FCS with an HLC. They also bid up one of the IGs to PS 8. That being said, I would play with as many iterations of this build that tickle your fancy. After the tournament I played in I will lean more towards an asymmetrical build, that way I can better predict my opponents target prioritization.

With the D there is some merit into template manipulation, but pilots like Echo and Lt. Loirr are not the most used even though their pilot ability can be real good in the right conditions.

Lt. Lorrir doesn't get play because he's an Interceptor without an EPT and using his ability causes stress. It's not Echo's ability that keeps her off of the table. It's the importance of having a high PS when positioning and firing to trigger ACD that makes Whisper the more popular choice.

Unlike Echo, IG-88D can choose to use the normal template or not to. It's much harder to block an Aggressor that has 5 possible moves to flip around.

Speaking of D is it a good candidate for Stay on Target?

I'm looking for an EPT for my B/D list ever since I learned lone wolf was unique.

Speaking of D is it a good candidate for Stay on Target?

I'm looking for an EPT for my B/D list ever since I learned lone wolf was unique.

I don't think it would be horrible on D. At speed 3 you've 7 possible maneuvers. I think only a ship with Navigator or Tetran Cowall might get more options with SoT. Advanced Sensors can be used to make sure that you still get an action in rounds that you use it and there's a lot of green on the dial for ditching the stress from using SoT. Unfortunately, PS6 is low enough you may find that SoT is a worthless upgrade against high PS lists.

I think you'd be better off with something like Predator but SoT could be fun.

Well I'd be most afraid of blocking right?