Even though we don't have it yet, I have questions, and I think this topic will be useful. Pay attention Corey

Agendas

Let's take the "Show Mercy" Agenda for a Cylon leader that we see on the official site and Boardgamegeek

"Humans must win, and Food, Morale or Population must be 2 or less"

a)If he fulfills his agenda, does that trump the human victory?

b) If the humans lose/Cylons wins normally, does he lose too, because he didn't fulfill his agenda? In that case, a draw, seeing as there are two defeats?

c) If there is a normal Cylon and a Cylon leader, and the humans lose normally, does the normal Cylon win, the Cylon leader ,lose, and humans lose?

d) how many Cylon leaders, Cylons and sympathisers are there?

I think logically that the Cylon leader should be obligated to fulfill his agenda. Two losses, his and human, could be a draw. I would rather have a draw than a lone Cylon leader being able to win BOTH the normal Cylon way AND the Cylon Leader Agenda way. Make it obligatory for the Cylon leader and his Agenda, otherwise he could, say, wipe out the humans (oops, sorry) in spite of a "Show mercy" agenda and still win.

Anyone with opinions, explanations etc. Corey?

And of course, if there is a very anti-Human agenda, would the other Cylon resist, just to win "normally", so the Leader doesn't fulfill his agenda? How would that work?

A Cylon leader can only be in games of four or more players. So I'm guessing that in a 4-player game there would be one Cylon leader, one hidden Cylon and two human players (no sympathiser). Not sure how this would scale upwards, but remember that there is now a "sympathetic Cylon" loyalty card, so maybe a 5-player game has two Cylon leaders (with the possibility of one of them switching sides) and the 6-player game just has two Cylon leaders outright.

As for the rest, this is just a guess, but I'd say that if a Cylon leader doesn't fulfill his agenda then he loses; he does not win along with the hidden Cylons if the humans lose. I'd also guess that a Cylon leader win will trump a human win, as it would seem odd to have two teams both winning. It does seem difficult (with what we know of the game so far) for the humans to win if a Cylon leader has the "Grant Mercy" agenda, though.

The mechanics would be easier to determine if we had more examples of Cylon leader agendas.

Always good reading your threads. Since the game has both mechanics and thematics, bit of role-playing etc., how do you explain the humans "losing" when they win with a Cylon leader "Mercy" agenda? The humans did survive. Just a bit of devil's advocate.

I think the Cylon Leader will win alongside which ever side the card says he has to win with. Otherwise you will have the humans knowing they have all lost even if they make it to the end, it's not as if they can decide to lose on purpose just so the Cylon Leader can't win..

After all your card says that you win if the humans win, but if they didn't win because you won, then you didn't win after all!

Problem with the Cylon leader winning with his side is that, say on Mercy agenda, the Cylon leader could wipe the humans out and still win "the normal Cylon way". It might make sense mechanically to insist the Cylon leader win buy his Agenda, and that it trumps other victories. opinions?

I do like the idea of both humans and cylons being able to win at the same time ... that's what happens in the show as well (at least in some aspects).

Yes the Cylon leader would lose if he did NOT complete his secret agenda. He cannot win the normal Cylon way and nothing has indicated that this is the case. His secret agenda is basically his loyalty card telling him which side he is on and what he has to do to win.

This game is about suspicion.

If the Cylon Leader's victory trumps your victory, then you don't have to be suspicious at all because then you would KNOW he's trying to shaft you and there would be no paranoia at all.

So my guess would be that it will not trump other players' victories.

DCAnderson said:

You're right, that may be the case. But the game may not be about whether the Cylon leader is trying to shaft you or not, but rather about in which way he's trying to shaft you. Could go either way.

Dan said:

Survive, yes, but subjugated. Which is pretty much a "lose" scenario for the humans.

Another thing that makes me doubt that the agendas will enable shared wins is game balance. If the agenda card that a Cylon leader is dealt determines what team he is on, and assuming the agenda card is random, then you will have random numbers of players on each team. I can't see how the game could be balanced this way.

Also, what would then be the difference between a normal Cylon leader who is helping the humans, and a "Sympathetic Cylon" leader?

Sorry to post four posts in a row, but I've had the past couple of hours to think about the shared win/exclusive win problem (I'm a bit obsessive like that) and the more I think about it the more it seems that it must be exclusive win, and here's why:

If two teams could share a win, there would be no point in the Cylon leader player(s) keeping their agenda secret from whichever side they would share a win with (this would be especially true if they shared a win with the human team). I'm sure agendas are also covered by the secrecy rules and so they can't be stated explicitly, but if a Cylon leader player wanted their intentions to be known then I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to communicate that through their actions. The sooner the two teams can know that they will share a win the sooner they can start cooperating and assure that victory. Apart from the complete lack of tension and suspicion this would lead to, it would also create the aforementioned problem of lopsided gameplay balance; in a 4-player game for example, you would either have two full Cylons working against two human players or two human players and a Cylon leader working against a lone hidden Cylon. The problem is even more pronounced with six players. The game can't be balanced in this way.

I don't believe that you will be getting different teams working towards the same long-term goal. What I think you'll get is each team co-operating with the other for short periods in order to achieve short-term advantages, and then screwing the other team over at just the right time so that they get less of an advantage than you do. This is much more like the sorts of things that happened in the TV show, rather than both the humans and Cylons working together for the "win".

I've also had a thought about how the humans might still be able to win against the "Grant Mercy" agenda, despite it's apparant difficulty: it's not a stretch to imagine that the New Caprica board will offer many ways for the humans to increase their resources - especially food and morale. If the humans have figured out that a Cylon leader holds the Grant Mercy agenda, then they will concentrate their efforts on increasing these two resources on New Caprica.

Bleached Lizard said:

Your missing one really important factor. They could be lying.

If a Cylon started to act all loveydouby with the humans right away you may think that they are with the humans. But then late game way after they got their trust BAM! they turn on them at the worst minute and screw them big time. The fact that the cylon play may do that will forever make you unsure if you should trust them. Hmm sounds like the show doesn't it?

the ability to walk on the ship is amazing

Bleached Lizard said:

Easily solved. Give the Cylon leader his 'loyality' card first. Then, depending on which side he is on let HIM prepare the treachery deck. That is if he is pro human add another Cylon and if he is anti human use the regula composition.

There is no problem with the Cylon Leader being on a random team, and here is why:

Ff the Cylon Leader is on the "cylon" team then his objective will be more inclined towards going easy on the humans, ie. win if cylons win and population is more than 4. If they Cylon leader is on the human team, then his objective will be more inclided towards being meaner to the humans ie. win if humans win and food, morale or population is 2 or less.

Also I would imagine the secret agendas would be fairly similar as to help avoid other players easily guessing what they are up to.

This has not been stated anywhere official but my guess from the yellow/black border around the resurrection ship is that Cylons can be 'boxed' much like humans can be brigged, if the Cylon Team thinks that the Cylon leader is playing for the wrong team. Conversely if the Cylon Leader gets onto Galactica and is seen to be evil, they can be brigged (or unrevealed cylons can brig them if it looks like they are being nice to the humans). This means keeping your agenda secret is vital.

I look forward to announcing that I am on the humans side and all the humans believing me.....

Kamakaze said:

Sounds preety awsome. But Cylon Leader must have another loyalty card that says that hes on the humans side. Is it a "sympathetic cylon" card?

Well I believe the Agenda card just states which side they are on (whichever side they need to win)

It is possible they have loyalty cards aswell but that would just be too conflicting with the secret agendas. The secret agenda seems more like the Cylon Leaders loyalty card and they share in the victory if they meet their condition whichever side that may be!

Bleached Lizard said:

I like that a lot. I think "Subjugate" captures a human loss better than "show mercy" Pound the humans heavily, just close to killing, but not, so to do it at a later date if desired. Humans would of course want to be strong enough to survive and not just scrape by in this agendas case. For role-playing, thematics, but also for better understanding I hope the Agendas could be explained better, either in the rules or an official thread FAQ.

Dan said:

No need to explain - just use your imagination and make it anything you want it to be!

In all likelihood the Cylon Leader does not draw a loyalty card, just a Secret Agenda card. And that Secret Agenda is the victory condition for that player. They fulfill it or lose.

Joelist said:

I also presumed that the Cylon leader would not receive a loyalty card... but then I remembered about the "You Are A Sympathetic Cylon" card. What's that about?

For all we know, Sympathetic Cylon IS a Secret Agenda card.

Bleached Lizard said:

I'm under the impression that it is a re-worded Sympathizer card that more clearly explains the role.

Cain's one time ability

She draws two civilian ships from reserves, or the board, and if from reserves and there are not two ships, can she use her ability?

My gut says from reserves, and if two ships unavailiable, then no use of ability. Opinions?