Some powers manifest as what is in effect a ranged attack, for example Fire Bolt. Can you dodge such an attack?

Yesterday I ruled no because the Fire Bolt uses not BS but WP (the attack is directed by the psyker's will and therefore too fast and immediate to dodge). Would that make a difference?

As long as the power results into the "creation" of something physical that is hurled against the pc/target, I say he can dodge!

The "willpower instead of ballistic skill" thing is in my eyes only a "rules" tweak to make the thing more "psychic"...and to save the player of said psyker the effort of having to raise both Willpower AND Ballistic skill in order to be an effective "combat psyker".

i concur with Gregorius on this.

it would have the effect of making psyker powers that manifest themselves physically more powerful. also i think of rounds coming from a SP gun or energy from a las or plasma. these would be too fast also but give the ability to dodge nonetheless.

if u wish to hold fast to the argument, u might consider a penalty to dodge such an attack.

the liegekiller said:

That's why you force your players to take dodge-tests BEFORE their enemies have fired their guns instead of AFTER (as the rulebook would have you to do). More realistic that way since the only way of getting out of the way of a bullet is to jump for cover at the same instant you see your enemy raise their gun. So rather than rolling to hit and then asking your players to dodge, you simply say: "he/she/it raise's his weapon and intends to fire, do you dodge or will you take your chances that he/she/it will miss?" (then you valiantly resist the urge to say: "Do you feel lucky? Well, do you!? Punk!" ).

I think the normal rules are a bit absurd in that regard that you can decide AFTER the shot has hit to dodge it or not. You can't dodge bullets, it's impossible. You can however dodge, roll out of th way, dive for cover BEFORE your assailant has fired his weapon making yourself a harder target.

I say it'd depend on the psychic attack honestly. A fire bolt for example would be easier to dodge than a force barrage or a bolt of bio lightning. I sya this since a huge ball of fire would move slower than a bolt of lightning and be easier to see than a disturbance in the air caused by a force barrage

If you can dodge automatic weapon's fire you can dodge a barrage of firebolts. There's nothing in the rules that says they can't be dodged and doing so preserves consistency. Of course, you'll need a lot of successes or you'll still take hits if they're shooting a force bolt barrage at you.. Psychic attacks that don't create weapons, explosions, or death rays aren't dodgeable.

I would say no since it would unbalance the game. The rules are written that you can't because they are not ranged attacks.

Biolightning also doesn't require you to test WP to hit, I think it's the only projectile power that doesn't require this, could be wrong.

Think of it from the mechanics stand point. Powers WP roll doesn't get any real bonuses to it but it can still get several minuses (fatigue, demonic presence etc). So powers that require this roll already have a hard time hitting, less them 50/50 which is far less then most shots from a gun. Allowing people to dodge these projectile powers would unbalance the game and weaken them to drastically, especially since degrees of success work differently for them then for ranged and melee attacks. Also because it is a psychic attack the projectile is most likely homing to a degree making dodging rather ineffective.

To put it simply, no, it doesn't work and would break the game. It's already in the rules you can't so this is less of a question about can you, but more of what do people think about using this as a house rule. Allowing it is your choice but from a mechanics stand point, it's a really bad idea. It's going to break a lot of things and create several conflicts in the rule. Think about it, you already have to first get the PT roll and then hit. The PT roll risks a lot with possible perils of the warp and both that PT roll and the WP test to hit get next to no bonuses and have many minuses that can be applied to them.

Do you just hate psychic powers and want to weaken them or something? Im not sure why this would be needed even if I liked the idea.

karn987 said:

If you are going to argue that its in the rules, please put a page reference because I don't recall any rules about not dodging psychic powers

Emprah_Horus said:

So is this an impolite way of asking me to site my reasoning and reference? Don't be so rude about it, if you want more info ask rather then being rude and really, not helping anyone. Say what your question is rather then making jabs.

Would it have honestly been soooo hard to just ask, what page did you draw this conclusion from?

Either way, to answer your crude reply all you have to do is look at the description of the dodge skill and the dodge action, pg 101 and pg 193. pg. 101: "You may use the Dodge skill once per Round to negate a successful hand-to-hand or ranged attack" and well as we all know, psychic powers are not either of these. Infact they don't even make attacks, the few that do have a chance of missing require a WP test.

pg 193: "You may Dodge both melee and ranged attacks." Again, psychic powers are NOT either of these.

So there is your answers, a little more time with your rule book and you could have found it. Next time, don't be a twit alright? There is no call for it.

He did say please give a page reference... didn't seem rude to me.

That you resolve to hit rolls differently doesn't mean you can't dodge.

For example

chain axe=WS roll

autogun=BS roll

grenade=BS roll and scatter if it misses

psychic blade strike=WP to hit roll

dodgeable

Boobytrap=Awareness roll to spot before you get close

dodgeable or not depends on the trap

Now

Firebolt=WP roll for each bolt

Fire Storm=no roll at all, place fiery explosion where you want

There's no reason that the latter two should be considered dodgeable, except that they're psychic phenomena.

There's no rule that says psychic phenomena can't be dodged. There is, in fact, a divination power that makes an attack undodgeable, but it specifically states that.

So yeah, the rules as written give no reason that psychic phenomena shouldn't be dodgeable.

So yeah, the rules as written give no reason that psychic phenomena shouldn't be dodgeable.

The problem is that there is no rule that states that they are dodgeable attacks (or attacks in the first place) either.

After all, you wouldn't try dodging fall damage either, would you?

I haven't made up my mind about the issue myself, but it doesn't seem very clear-cut for either side to me.

Also the rules clearly list what attacks can be dodged and psychic powers are left out of that list, that alone is enough proof really. The designers were listing what could be dodged, rather then what couldn't be.

There is also the fact that the powers that need a WP to hit are not even attacks, they gain none of the benifits or minuses of attack rolls. They are simply a WP test, if you succeed then you do the effects.

We have been playing that psychic attacks like Firebolt are not dodgeable because they home in on the target's mind like heat seeking missiles.

And who said you can't dodge bullets in a fictional universe with psychic powers mutants and Chaos gods. I shall point you to "The Matrix", "Equilibrium", "Star Wars", "Wanted" as exhibit A. Don't try to push your silly reality into my perfectly good fantasy opera.

if im going to throw something at you yes u can get out of the way but if i hurl verbal abuse at you youve kinda gotta take it....... i know it a crude analogy but one a bullet the othe is psychic.

lord inquisitor revan darksoul said:

Actually I like it heh.

karn987 said:

The rules say ranged and hand to hand attacks, which includes a number of psychic abilities as well. Furthermore, dodges are determined after hits, so the requirement to roll for to hit isn't relevant and certainly never mentioned in the dodge rules. I'm going to go bug FFG and see if they can provide a clarification.

lord inquisitor revan darksoul said:

Of course you can dodge verbal abuse, it just has a huge blast radius centered at the foulmouth making it harder to dodge.

I'm not sure where I stand, but I would like to argue that at least some psychic powers could count as ranged attacks. I mean, I'd call shooting fireballs at someone an attack and it's obviously done at range. FFG needs to sort this out, I'd personally like at least some attack powers to be dodgeable, but the point of powers lacking bonuses is very valid indeed.

The term "Ranged Attacks" is defined on page 195:

"Ranged Attacks- lasguns, scatterguns, thrown weapons, etc.- are resolved in the same way as melee attacks, except that you Test Ballistic Skill instead of Weapon Skill."

It then lists some specific considerations which apply to Ranged Attacks, none of which involve Psychic Powers and some of which (not being able to use them in melee for example) would be crippling if they applied to Psykers.

Both the type of attacks which may be dodged and those attacks are clearly defined. Neither include Psychic Powers. Therefore, Psychic Powers cannot be dodged.

Want an in-game explaination? Some psychic powers (Divine Shot, Bio-Lightning) automatically hit. Others hit or miss based on the Willpower roll of the user. This represents the Psyker using his Willpoer to not only direct the attack towards you, but also to compensate for any attempt you make to avoid it. Of course, while it seems intuitive to think that you might try to dodge a fireball, I'm not sure how one would dodge the splinter of mental force created by Soul Killer, etc.

From what I understand, the Warp doesn't care where you are or if you have ninja reflexes. If the Psyker can control the warp well enough to manifest the intended effect, then it's already been determined that it's going to hit you. You just cant dodge the warp. Besides, if the powers where dodgeable, it would say it somewhere in the rulebook, and it doesn't. None of the examples of dodgeable attacks anywhere in the book have psychic powers listed or described. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. However, that's just my take on it.

~Kon

karn987 said:

Right, so we're arguing about how to apply the terms 'melee' and 'ranged' , I believe. To steal a TT term, I consider 'melee' to be base~to~base (adjacent squares, or further with reach]. As for 'ranged' ; are flaming balls of fire and the like not done with a gap of some kind between firer and firee? A gap that could be measured, finding the range between them? An attack that could, therefore, very well be termed 'ranged'?

And I believe you can dodge falling. It's called Catfall (or does this work on a static number now, I jump system too much to recall atm].

I'd be inclined to state that Psychic Powers cannot be dodged .

My logic on it is:

• It is stated in the rules that you can dodge melee and ranged attacks.
• It is also stated in the rules that melee attacks use WS to hit and ranged attacks use BS to hit.
• Psychic Powers use WP bonus + Psy Rating to activate and some Psychic Powers use WP to hit. None of them use WS or BS to hit, thus they are not melee or ranged. They are a category of their own.
• Also noticable is that rules do not state that you can or cannot dodge environmental damage like suffocation, falling, cold, heat etc. The rules only state what you can dodge and that would be melee or ranged.
• Catfall talent uses agility save to reduce falling damage so its not dodge in word or mechanics.

If you want some kind of logical and "realistic" reason why you can't dodge Psychic Attacks try the following: When a character is dodging ranged attacks like bullets or laser beams he is not, in fact, dodging the effect (bullet or laser beam or whatever) because that is impossible. No normal man can move faster than bullet and certainly nothing moves faster than laser beam (which is light). What is actually happening is that instead of dodging the effect (bullet, laser), the character is dodging the source (the weapon muzzle). The character can see the attacker aiming his way and dodges out of the way of the weapon muzzle just when the attacker is about to press the trigger.

Psychic Powers do not work like this. Warp is everywhere and instead of pointing, aiming and firing a physical weapon the Psyker wills the warp to manifest as the Pyschic Power effect. As everything happens inside the Psykers mind untill the point when the power manifests itself there is nothing to signal that you should dodge and there is absolutely nothing dodge untill you are already hit.

Psychic Powers also target people differently from ranged attacks. Ranged attacker isn't actually targeting a person, he is targeting the point in space where the person currently is, or as in case of taking lead with bullet speed weapons, is assumed to be when the bullet reaches the point . Thus these attackes are dodged by simply moving away from the point before the attack hits and in so last moment that the attacker cannot compensate for the movement. As all other persons except untouchables manifest as visible points in warp for the Psyker the Psychic Powers aimed at persons are not targeted by aiming them at specific points in realspace but aiming them at specific persons in warp. You cannot dodge such an attack because you cannot move out of your self. Also, this explains why no psychic power can directly hit untouchable. There is simply nothing to target.