So, I'm running this DH campaign where Daemonhunter Ahmazzi is the bad guy. His cynical view on the Imperium's future coupled with him discovering the secret of the Hereticus Tenebrae has led him to do something rather rash.

In my game, the Heretic Tenebrae is an old Eldar superweapon from before their Fall. It was designed to, when it is activated, to seek out the strongest psychic beacon in the galaxy, and destroy it. It was originally built to destroy Slaanesh (as foreseen by a strong Exodite Farseer. However, Slaanesh unfortunately is not the strongest psychic point in the galaxy since the Astronomican came to exist.

Now, I'm not overly versed in Warhammer 40 000 lore, since I only started reading about it some 7 months ago when I picked up a copy of the rpg, so I was hoping some of you out there could maybe help me out a bit.

Essentially, my question is this: What do you think would happen to the Imperium were the Astronomican to flicker and die? What do you think would be the immidiate consequenses? The long-term? How would the Imperium function?

Short term, pretty much every ship making a long warp jump using Navigators would become lost in the warp or in deep space crippling the defence of many sectors. The number of souls lost in this process may stirr up the warp further increasing the numbers of warp storms and psykic phoenomina. The inability to respond with any kind of haste to invasion would mean many systems would fall as the Imperiums main method of defense is to respond in ever increasingly large areas and this would be made impractical.

Any Planetery Govener who was contemplating rebelion would likely see it as the perfect time to strike. The only vessels unaffected would be chartist captains and the rates they would charge would increase drastically. Things would likely spiral out of control pretty fast after that, except right out on the eastern fringe where the Astronomican doesnt reach any way but they would likely get caught up in it.

Kaihlik

Essentially, my question is this: What do you think would happen to the Imperium were the Astronomican to flicker and die? What do you think would be the immidiate consequenses? The long-term? How would the Imperium function?

Well... not at all.

Without the Astronomican, the navigators would be blind. That means no rapid warp travel - everyone would have to use the snail-speed chartist way. This would mean that the Imperial Guard would be paralysed since they'd be incapable of moving troops from planet to planet. With the amount of enemies the Imperium has, it wouldn't take more than two or three centuries for it to be torn apart. The luckier regions would be inducted into the Tau federation while the unlucky ones become Tyranid chow, ground into dust under an Ork Waaagh or sacrificed to Chaos.

Alternatively, the vision of some other Radical inquisitors might come true: If the weapon truly killed the Emperor, He might be reborn and lead the Imperium to a second period of glory. Of course, there's not exactly much that this idea to be more than wishful thinking...

Firstly if the light of the Astronomicon were to go out then navigation becomes infinetly harder as there is no longer a single beacon which navigators can refer to. Warp travel would still be possible but even more uncertain and dangerous, most likely limiting all travel to short jumps making journey time far longer. This might well isolate areas of the Imperium from vital supplies.

Secondly the Emperor and probably the primary astropathic pyschic choir would be destroyed. Central orders form the High lords or the Administratum to anyone outside the Terran system would be all but impossible to send out until astropaths on other system worlds are sent to Terra. It is unlikey that the number of astropaths needed for communicating with the outside Imperium could be garnered resulting in further delays of 'vital' instructions.

This is now mainly conjecture on my part now... But With the Emperor destroyed and without his psychic might to hold back the powers of Chaos there would be widespread attacks by daemons and the dread legions. Also depending on what you read there may be a webway portal under the Golden Throne that was opened to the Warp, so daemons would burst through onto the soill of Holy Terra itself.

Finally its up to you to decide whether the Emperor is the immortal star child destined to be reborn into another body after his old one dies or if he is just annihilated leaving the Imperium with no hope.

Im sure there was a discussion of this topic at some point on these forums with some pretty good ideas in them. See if you can dig it up.

ps I might just be imagining it...

Thank you for your quick responds!

I think all this sounds deliciously awesome, and I am now contemplating for Ahmazzi's plan to actually succeed and have my players continue in the wake of the chaos that would follow.

I agree that, even if it might not be canon, the Ruinous Powers would notice the vacuum of the Emperor and unleash its full warmachine. Between that, every malign alien species in the galaxy and the Imperium tearing itself apart, I am sure Acolytes of the Inquisition would have an interesting time on their hands. Sounds like a perfect opportunity to introduce my players to the Rogue Traders in preparation of a future Rogue Trader campaign as well!

Note that calculated warp jumps are limited to about 5 light years. While a navigator able to see the Astronomican can jump 100s or more light years. Without the Astronomican navigators are still faster than a calculated jump, but they tend to get off course without the Astronomican. So trade within the local area would be slowed, but still function. But there would be no help from outside.

PS- The real question is do Astropaths still function without the Emperor? If so then they are highly valued vanishing assets. If not then communication within the Imperium beyound a sector become near impossible.

King of Sand said:

I don't see how being stranded on one planet unless you're willing to undergo an incredibly risky and lengthy trip would be fun as a player.

Also, you're drifting dangerously close into "railroad" territory as a GM. Player-f*cking PCs gets old fast. You better have good story ideas that don't involve really screwing the players over by GM fiat after this, or your players will abandon your game. I know, both as a PC and as a GM, how fast it can happen. I've seen a campaign that lasted for literally 18 months, meeting weekly, fall apart and never be played again after one session where the DM got the brilliant idea to just completely shaft/railroad the players. He didn't GM for five years after that because nobody wanted to be screwed again.

At the *very* least, give players an honest chance to have a hand in the events. It will make such an event go over far more smoothly. Let them have a phyrric victory, say they manage to preserve the emperor, but the astronomicon is destroyed, or even vice versa.

Also, in canon, you realize that Terra itself is possibly *the* most heavily guarded planet in the galaxy now, correct? You realise that the bad guys have had 30,000 years to enact any plan you could have for total imperial armageddon, and thus have not been able to? I wouldn't use "an acient weapon that nobody's really used until now because... well hell just because". Besides, I dunno if the emperor is the most powerful psyker "signal". In fact, I'd wager he wasn't. He just had the mental fortitude to run the astronomicon without killing him.

I'll run with the idea momentarily, and assuming that the machinery itself still functions, other powerful psykers *could* sit on the golden throne for short periods of time, pretty much at their death. There's canon supporting this during the Horus Heresy. Thus, two options are possible. One, sacrifice all the really powerful psykers one by one to run the astronomicon for a few centuries, or two, step up the sacrifices to the golden throne to support a lesser psyker in the throne. I could see an interesting campaign where the acolytes are searching for a powerful enough psyker/will to sit on the golden throne though.

Also, astropaths would function if I'm not mistaken. They are specialized telepathic psykers that don't rely on the astronomicon.

Thank you for your thoughts Flatline!

I don't know if being stranded on one planet is boring though. I mean, it's still a whole planet. Many rpg's are set on one planet. I *did* have an idea of introducing them to a chartist captain though which would still make them capable of moving around. I have no intention of "screwing" anybodu over. Why do you feel like a change in the setting would be bad for the players? Granted, it's a big change, but still.

Storywise, the reason nobody has used the Hereticus Tenebrae before is not just "because". It's because nobody knew what is was before! I guess it might sound too "simple" a way to destory the Emperor if you have read alot of the books and are familiar with alot of the previous attempts to do so. Fortunately though, *I* haven't, and neighter has my players, so I don't think they'll give me too hard a time about it.

Anyhow, there's bound to be several things to be done that will put the Imperium back on it's feet, which will probably be the final goal of the campaign. I think your idea with searching for a strong psyker to take the Emperor's place is great! Maybe if they could just persuade the Burning Princess... Heck, they might very well find the reincarned Emperor and lead him back to his rightful place on Holy Terra.

I remember reading somewhere in the Dark Heresy book that you can sometimes travel backwards in time when you are in the Warp. Do you think it would be possible for the players to go back in time to before the Hereticus Tenebrae was activated and kill their former master before he has a chance to? Or am I way out there now?

TheFlatline said:

You're quite correct, they'd still function -but that's the problem really. You see, astropaths are soul-bound to the Emperor. They are soul-bound to Big Daddy because they had proven to be strong psychics but with minds too weak to handle the power. They were big shinny candy red treats screaming for attention in the warp and the only way to use them and keep everyone safe is to have Big Daddy perpetually looking over their shoulder making sure they don't accept any candy from strangers or get into their van no matter how many puppies were in the back. With Big daddy out of the picture, god only knows the kind of candy they'd accept and the things they'd do for the strangers with that candy.

So, yes, they very well might still function, but the planet they're on might be doomed because of it -unless being soul-bound to the Emperor means you die when He dies...

@Sand, being stranded on just one planet is not only boring, it's unforgivable! Why, heck, we aren't restricted to just one planet in reality, why should your PC's? I really don't think anyone could actually live for long only restricted to one planet with it's one city and it's one type of person (named Bob no doubt!) there in that one city. It would drive any sane man crazy never mind what it would do to the crazy fellas. Just look at history. Can you name just one exciting monumentus event in our history that didn't span at least three planets? I didn't think so, and we don't even live in a crazy fictional setting like 40k where just about anything can happen.

Oh, and to my knowledge, there has been one invasion of Terra... it ended badly for everyone. After that, I guess everyone decided it was a lot better for all involved to stick to invading other planets and work to insure that in the grim dark future of the 41str millenium, there is only stalemate! And heresy! But mostly stalemate!

Edit: and if your thinking of going the Eldar rout, are you familiar with the conspiracy theory that puts forth the notion that the flush handle on the Emperor's Throne leads to the Web Way? Something to think about mayhap...

Well with regard to astropaths.... If I am not mistaken ALL astropaths are soul bound to the emperor.... IIRC it is necessary to help protect the astropaths consciousness from the warp.

Pasting the emperor would most likely kill all the astropaths as well and you would not get any more.

If you have no astropaths you have no imperium of man.

Bleh Graver beat me to the post

Whatever you decide to do King of Sand you need to make sure the pcs at least have a slim chance to stop Ahmazzi. I know as a player I would be immensely annoyed if something this big happened off-screen and I had no part to play in it.

Similarly although the warp can do all sorts of things to time it would feel cheaty to actually go back in time randomly. If an acolyte made a dark pact with tzeentch on the other hand...

Ultimately the players need to be centre stage and responsible for whatever happens, for good or ill. Hell make it their choice as to whether the super weapon is activated. Get Inquisitors with opposing view points to make appeals to the acolytes and let them decide who they side with.

Cifer said:

Really? I always thought warp travel was possible before the Astronomican was in place and the Emperor was still waging war through the galaxy in person. I had the impression the Astronomican became an important 'lighthouse' so to speak, with which the Navigators are able to better calculate warp jumps. Without it the Navigators are still able to navigate in the same way as medieval navigators were able to navigate a sailing ship without a nearby lighthouse. Otherwise the Emperor's crusade througout the galaxy in 30K would have become rather difficult to perform...

Hmmm this has given me a few ideas...

Anyway, if I had to run with a plot like this, I'd ramp up the confusion - eg.

1) players find the superweapon, they don't know what it does other than it kills off a target. When they use it, it accidently kills off the emperor.

2) have a read of the Imperiums big lies thread - there's some juicy stuff in there about how it could be possible its not the Emperor on the throne. Thats what I'd run with

3) have the players fire the weapon - their immediate target is destroyed. Secondary effect - the "thing" on the golden throne is also destroyed. The players do not realise this.

4) So they are now on this planet for whatever reasons, reports are coming over the next few weekes that Navigators find it harder to travel. Food and equipment supplies are getting a little worrying. Maybe throw in a riot or some over disturbance as the civilians panic

5) Maybe Navigators are refusing to travel now? Are the players "landlocked" on this planet?

6) For added variety, you could do an armageddon scenario on that planet - dwindling supplies with no new ships or transport off planet leading to a breakdown. Plus I'd probably throw an invasion in the mix (the chaos powers would spot a superweapon being fired off and "go to town") and maybe the Inquisition sends another team down (or even Arbites) to the planet to work out what the hell is going on. Players get mixed up in all this carnage

7) eventually, the High Lords find another strong willed psyker and plonk him down on the Throne - things get better, slowly.

8) slowly the players find out (through clues or mysterious whatnots) that the weapon they used caused all this carnage. How does this affect them? Are they distraught? (If you don't think they will be, this might not be a good route to go down...)

9) as an added bonus, if it wasn't the Emperor on the Throne, and maybe it was Horus or someone else, then where is the Emperor? Does he return with the missing primarchs?? Do the Elder use their secret passage and take over Terra??

Could be a juicy one - but remember that big mega-changes like this can really really mess up the game-world. I liken it to the Old World of Darkness setting and the Gehenna - use it with caution!

I'd sort of stick it somewhere between both and call it 'Pretty Bad'

Comms and the like are going to be buggered and I'm not really sure of the ramifications of that, but it would be unpleasent and far reaching in the long term, probably cause something of a 'Balkanisation' of the Segementums and sectors as they look inward for support, sufficiency and leadership.

Travel however, isn't as screwed as you think...

Now, traditionally 'Galactic North' is the Astrronomicon as a point of reference for a navigator, its a relatively easy point of reference. I'll save you from my rant of 'it' doing a few million kms in an orbit at 36,000km/h as being an 'accurate' point of reference on a galactic scale of being completely accurate. But I digress, its a big source of psychic 'light' in the galaxy they use, however it is not the only big lighthouse out there.

See, there's this big ol warp storm out near Cadia called the 'Eye of Terror', which will serve much the same purpose as something of a 'Galactic South' and you don't even need to stuff a couple of 1000 dud psykers into it! If you suggest it to anyone outside the navigators guild, you'll probably get burnt

Course the real question now is what to do with about 1/3 of a million dud psykers now we don't have anywhere to put them?

The astronomicon is not the only Imperial 'psychic lighthouse' out there, just the largest/most effective. It is so effective because it uses the big E to focus the signal into a beam heading towards galactic east by north-east. The signal is generated by a massive choir of scarily powerful psykers (as in so massive they fill up a hollowed-out Mt. Everest, literally). Take the Emperor out of the equation, and the signal will likely decohere and devolve into a spherical projection, in a similar fashion to the aforementioned other astronomic booster stations (one of the most famous being at or near Sanctuary 101). Assuming the same psychic potential going into the signal, that will vastly reduce the range, but may make it easier for travel in systems to spinwise by rimward of Sol.

Of course, the psychic shock of taking out the Emperor would probably kill a fair few of the psykers in the astronomicon.

Of course, if your superweapon takes out the Halls of the Astronomicon instead, the psychic shockwave and fallout would probably kill, mutate or drive insane every psyker and navigator in the sector, probably along with most 'normal' people on Terra's eastern hemisphere. The only person who might survive (relatively) unscathed in that area would be the Emperor Himself, and even then I make no promises about his sanity (that said, He is probably insane by most standards anyway- see this thread , and also Ian Watson's Draco (or Inquisitor , if you have an old enough copy)).

Assuming the Emperor survives, astropathic communication networks would remain in place, although I suspect the psychic fallout would preclude future soul-bindings (and, indeed, anyone not coated in an inch-and-a-half of psycurium (or similar) from getting within a hundred kilometres of the Throne and the former Hall of the Astronomicon), leading to a gradual degradation and eventual collapse of superluminal communications not dependent upon physical couriers. If the Emperor snuffs it, I'd say the odds are better than even that every single soulbound individual will 'simultaneously' go insane or collapse dead (or comatose). Even if they didn't, they'd know the Emperor was dead, and I doubt the local authorities will be able to contain the bad news, or the rioting likely to spring from it. Expect carnage, mass suicides, doomsday prophets feeling cocky and vindicated, the works.
Assuming the immediate furor can be made to die down without too much damage, the astropathic network is going to be in tatters, and, as has already been intimated, the astropaths are going to be without the big E to prevent them from going insane/getting possessed every time they try and send or receive a message. There would be a reasonable chance that every time you tried to contact anywhere else without sending the message via ship that you would end up drawing down hell upon your world. Communications would slow down significantly as a result. There would be no way to train replacement astropaths, aside from possibly at local Bastions Psykanae, which (unfortunately) would probably be the places worst hit by the psychic aftermath of the Emperor's death.

Navigators would find it much harder to navigate, and the younger and weaker ones may well (effectively) lose their powers altogether, much like in a Paternoval Succession crisis (which, by the way, may well be triggered by the destruction of the Astronomicon, especially if the Paternova and senior Navigators (from any House) are in residence in their Terran enclaves). Ships in transit when the Astronomicon dies will probably be lost (unless they had one of the Heirs Apparent, or other master Navigator aboard), although the loss of the Astronomicon will not preclude guided warp travel. It will however result in panic among members of the Navis Nobilite, and a probable refusal/inability to make long warp jumps.

The Balkanisation of the Imperium of Man is probable, although other possibilities could include something akin to the (meta)plot of Chris Bunch's Last Legion novels.

Essentially- no astronomican=bad but survivable, but the destruction of the astronomican= the end times

Well King of Sand, if you are going to use Ahmazzi, I have some quotes of his that ending up not making it into the core book. Enjoy!

Upon Thelassis Prime I first looked upon the Warp, and I knew then how the human race would end.

We are living through the end of the universe, and the Warp is what will kill us. The Gods of Chaos are hungry, evil and infinite, and nothing we can do will stop them. So why do I fight at all? Because that is what it means to be human. To never give up, at anything, ever.

I’ve seen everything in the Warp - daemons, gods, lost souls. But no Emperor. That’s why everything you have been told is a lie. The Emperor is dead and if these hordes of petty idiots ever realised that, this crude little species would be extinct a hundred times over. Does that shock you? Good. Because it gets worse.

Faugh! Puritans are deluded. Anyone who sees what an Inquisitor sees ends up a radical in the end. If they really wanted to rid the galaxy of radicals they’d have to burn every single Inquisitor, starting with themselves.

The journey through the Malestrom took me seventeen years. I was imprisoned, tortured, driven to the edge of madness and forced to watch my closest friends die. At the end of it, I realised that the Warp didn’t want me dead. It wanted to turn me into a worthy opponent. So now, even when I put another piece of daemonic filth to the flame, the gods of the Warp can claim it as a victory.

I have taken up the weapons of the daemon and enacted the foul rituals of the sorcerer. For this, they tried to burn me at the stake, these same men and women who are only alive today because of the sacrifices that cost me so much of my soul.

I have killed better men than you or I.

No doubt I will die a long and horrible death, probably at the hands of my fellow Inquisitors. But at the final moment I can look back and, whether for good or ill, I will see stretching behind me a story beyond compare. No one has seen what I have seen or done what I have done. In a galaxy that does not care about good or evil, that is the only way a life can have any meaning.

-Inquisitor Ahmazzi, Ordo Malleus

I hope you find them useful - they were written by Ben Counter and yours truly. Cheers.

Wow! Thanks a bunch for those!

If I could only learn all those words by memory, I'd have an awesome "Final Speech" for my players. I absolutely love Ahmazzi, and I want to at least try to make the players see the world from his eyes. Maybe with a passionate enough speech, followed by Ahmazzi picking up his warhammer to go fight the deamons as they encroach on the Imperium of Man will do the trick.

It was the part in the book that stated Ahmazzi wanted nothing else than to ride into combat once more that really hooked me on this character. I figured, since he believes the Imperium is doomed anyway, why not have him make sure he is alive to see it, and fight in the final battle? I can definately relate to that. If I'm lucky, the players might even be swayed by his words and join him!

My main problem with that is that it's very easy for players to become rather demotivated in the middle of the campaign. Without the Astronomican and thus likely without the astropaths, the Imperium will end . Some of it will be scavenged by the other powers of the galaxy, some of it will simply collapse unto itself when shipments of food or technology don't arrive. When that becomes clear, I would ask myself "What am I still fighting for?". And right now, I'd be rather hard-pressed for an answer.

King of Sand said:

In that case, the background is yours to do with as you will. However, removing the Emperor would have massive effects, as detailed above (and much more!) and I can't really see how it's anything less than a setting-breaker. But hey, if you want to evolve your own setting, why not?

Thing is, the galaxy is a huge place (hell, Calixis is a huge place) and you can have apocalyptic events without breaking the setting.

King of Sand said:

This may be your get-out clause! There's also supposedly a place in the Eldar Webway where time travels backwards. I'd say reaching that place would be a campaign in itself, especially amidst the ruin of the Imperium...

doing in the Astronomican would be bad. really bad. if u do go through with this please post to let us know what ur post Astronomicon Imperium looks like.

@Cifer...What are you fighting for?....at that point whatever you want.

I find it surprising how dependent many of u seem on this setting for ur role-playing. a fractured broken Imperium would be even more interesting than the maintenance of this status quo. torn apart Imperium would be even darker potentially. maybe it would spark new innovation in FTL travel and comms. maybe a new gov't can attempt to establish dominance. there can be any number of storylines wthin a given sector. manifest daemonic incursion. xenos invasion. strange mutant/xenos/psyker alliances for survival. an overthrow of a govt . more conspiracy theories. the very nature of the Imperiums old guard would change. the question is...how? and THAT is where all the fun comes in.

whereas many of u see a dead storyline. i see opportunities.

that said...the problem i immediately see comes from sands own words...he really isn't familiar with the 40K setting...can he pull it off? sure..and maybe his lack of deeper knowledge may make for a fantastic bit of gamemanship. me personally. this is not something i would pull off for a few years with the same PC group. i'd want them to be FULLY invested into the environ and atmosphere of 40K making the loss, stunning...devestating...they need to be able to feel the loss keenly.

@Cifer...What are you fighting for?....at that point whatever you want.

Yeah, but what can you fight for with any chance of lasting success? If your world is self-sustaining (and there will probably be few enough of those - any hive and almost every forge world will starve while quite a few others will drop back to the medieval period), it's pretty much only a matter of time before someone comes along and conquers it. You have no military might to speak of, no mobility, no communications to other planets... you're pretty much a turtle flipped on its back waiting for the next scavenger to come along and everything you do is just passing your time before the inevitable happens. Should you now say "hey, that sounds just like what the human condition is all about", the difference is that the acolytes don't have anything greater than themselves to live for. They know that everything they build will be torn down with nothing to replace it with but the monuments of whoever does the tearing.

Not the best preconditions if you want them to do anything but try and live a normal life to its end...

even ppl that have nothing to live for...find a way to live and grow and build. take a trip to Sudan, Somalia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Iraq and any number of countries taht don't live how we do in the West. these ppl don't just give up. they repurpose. they retask. they find new goals. ppl have lived and survived through worse.

many will die in less than self sufficient worlds. how would that be any different from the pre imperial ppl that had to work to colonise and build. those that had no Astronomican and Imperial fleet behind them? from the Imperial 40K point of view recall whole sectors have fallen sway to isolation from warp storms, Terra included. men have lived and thrived on death worlds.

ur not much for human adaptability and their penchant for survival are u brother?

I think what Cifer was trying to say, Liegekiller, is that story-wise it would be hard to keep players motivated once their God given purpose is taken away from them, namely protecting the Imperium. Without this mission they would be nobodies, certainy able to live out their lives and survive on any given world but capable of doing what else?

Travel is even more difficult and at some point the Imperial infrastructure will collaspse. Its not very good for player involvement if they can do nothing to affect these changes. However if elements from the background are woven together skillfully enough then there is the potential for an awesome campaign where you ramp up the space opera to 11 and do things like finding the star child, sensei, illuminati, voyage to the black library, uncover the mysteries of the Rhanda Dandra and the Old Ones true plans, help mankind ascend to psychic stability, prevent the birth of the fifth chaos god, return the primarchs etc etc....

Otherwise if you kill the Emperor and go back to battling little things like xenos and daemons whats the point? It will be an anti climiax and players will feel cheated. Similarly avoid those get out clauses, like time travel, it just feels cheap. Good luck King of Sand.

DivinatorVictus said:

i agree that such a story would have to be done very well....that is why i suggested being more well-versed in 40K lore. i shoul have fleshed out my argument better mentioning the concepts u did. truly , to me those are the real heart and soul of 40K mysteries. its unfortunate that nearly all of the really great early stuff seems to have been jettisoned by the GW. y'see n my mind it would be an even crazier attempt to keep on keeping on..the introduction of new story arcs.

that motivation comes from the GM and great story telling. as aplayer i would say...ok...WOW...what now? i'd want to play it out....

imagine the drive of necessity then to get galactic wide comms on, or an alternative to warp travel...the tech hereteks could be coming out of the woodwork offering alternatives...there are those thne that would fight to keep the Imperium as it was, others to take a new path for god or ill..and no one reall knowing whose side anyone is on..

and as for time travel...UUUGGGHHHHH....the two most hated concepts to me personally in sci-fi/space opera ..time travel and prophecy..u are the One...extremely cheap and gaudy