So I have been watching the forums for awhile and have noticed that the favorite faction is the Empire. With the Star Destroyers I don't blame anyone. But what is the Rebel's future for faction power? Let's look.

So one of the biggest issues I have seen so far with the Imperial Ships is its movement. They are slow hard to turn tanks. Solid but are bad at chasing other ships and getting to objectives. Now the Rebels have movement in spades right now and even when the Assualt Frigate comes out that too will be more maneuverable than a VSD. It also will be a good Squadron Support piece which I think will be a strong part of the Rebel's strength.

So my thoughts are the Empire is going to have to overcome its movement issue and I am not sure its strong firepower will overcome it quick enough. So has the Power of the Empire been overstated? Are the Rebels going to be toe to toe with the Empire even putting the Empire on it's back foot in some Objective Scenarios?

Thoughts?

It's an interesting reversal from X-Wing where Rebel ships tend to be less maneuverable but harder hitting, while the Imperials tend to be more maneuverable.

Once the Lancer frigates make their appearance in a future wave, I think the Imperials will have a good counter for rebel fighters other than fielding bucket loads of Ties.

I honestly think the Raider is going to fill the roll of the Lancer. I doubt we even see one.

I'd not get too excited on that, a Vic can tank 4 red dice all game without much drama. It comes down to objective then - sure you can fly the AF2 about, but if the Vic is parked on the objective, it's winning the game.

I can tell you a Victory will not be able to tank with with ships in the flank and rear pounding it. It is not That tough, I know first hand. Also a lot of objectives are either get there first or you get points every round you control it. A Victory will be able to hold one objective for a period but there will be multiple objectives on the table so holding one will still lose you the game.

The GSD's will be needed to play the objective game and then you won't be able to just rely on firepower.

Alternatively you just use Glad's in combination with Vics to perform aggressive area denial. You go forwards, and get your ships into a position where you have overlapping fire lanes, and are basically telling your opponent; 'Sure, you can have this objective if you are willing to stand in front of the might of the Imperial navy'. And I don't think trading any ship is worth getting a token.

Given that you get the chance to set-up some of the objectives in objective games. You can easily set-up to ensure this is a viable option. If the rebels chase around you, you just float forwards, get the objectives you were denying, and still have the advantage in distance fire fights. You can't really fight into it with AF's either, since well you might be able to trade Broadsides with a Vic, but you can't do it with a Vic and a Glad. Admittedly the AF can win the long range battle, but Glad's can manover better than a AF if needed.

Essentially I think that Imps can still win with firepower, you just have to use it in the right way.

The Rebel Ships need synergy to be effective. So their best chances come from combos.

For example the combo:

Yavaris, Tallon, a B-wing and Farlander

Because of the movement and range rules, the 2 B-wings should be able to keep in range of a VSD without moving for potentially(if not likely) 3 turns. In those 3 turns Farlander can attack 3 times a turn, the B-wing gets 2 attacks a turn.

Don’t forget Farlander throws 2 black dice which have a 50% chance of criting and a 25% chance of doing a damage and crit, before considering the rerolls against hull.

This means that the 2 B-wings can throw 30 anti-ship dice over 3 turns. Imperial ships are tough, but not that tough. Add in surviving X-wings and ships and that would be carnage. Then add objectives like most wanted and it only gets worse for the imperials.

Once the Lancer frigates make their appearance in a future wave, I think the Imperials will have a good counter for rebel fighters other than fielding bucket loads of Ties.

I honestly think the Raider is going to fill the roll of the Lancer. I doubt we even see one.

I'd have to guess the same (only crossed in for the CR-90, which is basically what the Lancer was trying to be). Personally, I'm infinitely happier with the Raider. Though it's funny that they had to slap interceptor wings on it to keep it from looking like...every Star Destroy ever, it looks sweet I far prefer it to that Freudian nightmare.

the Raider should be filling the slot in empire that the Corvette does for rebels, especially since it's already doing so in X-wing miniatures. Plus, the empire has the Gladiator as the anti-Nebulon (close range, baby!) which leaves only the Corvette to rip-off adapt to.

plus we got this neat quote from the "Here Comes the Raider article:" “The result was a cross between a Star Destroyer and a single-pilot fighter, something fast and aggressive."

interestingly enough, the Corvette seems to be Armada's analog to the Tie Fighter in X-wing miniatures as a cheap, fast little bugger made out of spit and prayer.

Now if I could find the raider article spoiling its stats I could start speculating endlessly about how it'll look like in armada

I'd not get too excited on that, a Vic can tank 4 red dice all game without much drama. It comes down to objective then - sure you can fly the AF2 about, but if the Vic is parked on the objective, it's winning the game.

I can tell you a Victory will not be able to tank with with ships in the flank and rear pounding it. It is not That tough, I know first hand. Also a lot of objectives are either get there first or you get points every round you control it. A Victory will be able to hold one objective for a period but there will be multiple objectives on the table so holding one will still lose you the game.

The GSD's will be needed to play the objective game and then you won't be able to just rely on firepower.

Alternatively you just use Glad's in combination with Vics to perform aggressive area denial. You go forwards, and get your ships into a position where you have overlapping fire lanes, and are basically telling your opponent; 'Sure, you can have this objective if you are willing to stand in front of the might of the Imperial navy'. And I don't think trading any ship is worth getting a token.

Given that you get the chance to set-up some of the objectives in objective games. You can easily set-up to ensure this is a viable option. If the rebels chase around you, you just float forwards, get the objectives you were denying, and still have the advantage in distance fire fights. You can't really fight into it with AF's either, since well you might be able to trade Broadsides with a Vic, but you can't do it with a Vic and a Glad. Admittedly the AF can win the long range battle, but Glad's can manover better than a AF if needed.

Essentially I think that Imps can still win with firepower, you just have to use it in the right way.

Unfortunately you will find that this is the case and even with the VSD's great dice pool that is not enough time to take out capitals with their defense tokens. And in the Flank Hull Zones the Assualt Frigate, which is as maneuverable as a GSD at speeds over 1, is matched dice for dice in firepower.

The VSD and soon ISD do have board control with their front hull zone attacks but so far every ship can get past the threat and no one is going to Joust a VSD or ISD. They will take the long way around and flank you hard. I really don't see a way for Imperial players to stop that and that is going to be a fact of the game.

Unfortunately you will find that this is the case and even with the VSD's great dice pool that is not enough time to take out capitals with their defense tokens. And in the Flank Hull Zones the Assualt Frigate, which is as maneuverable as a GSD at speeds over 1, is matched dice for dice in firepower.

The VSD and soon ISD do have board control with their front hull zone attacks but so far every ship can get past the threat and no one is going to Joust a VSD or ISD. They will take the long way around and flank you hard. I really don't see a way for Imperial players to stop that and that is going to be a fact of the game.

You only really do need to have 1 turn of shooting with the front hull zone. Potentially 6 dice is still pretty terrifying whichever way you slice it, and one round of that will make a big big dent. You also don't need to kill captial ships, just deal significant damage. It means a) the ship has to play even more cautiously and b) it deters stuff like AF's from going into broadside with you. Since, well when you've already taken damage and you are pretty evenly matched for firepower as is, you are at a disadvantage. (Without factoring potential stuff like Screed, since I still think he will make for an amazing build given the burst, and then fact he really limits redirect tokens).

Not to mention, it's significantly easier to out outmaneuver 1 ship, than it is to do multiple which you must consider. Whilst out manouvering all of them is possible, it's somewhat improbable to do that without taking some damage.

I just personally don't think perfectly moving past an Imperial fleet when it has more ships without taking casulties will be possible unless you really out play the opponent. But hey, we are both free to think these things, given that this is part of the complexity that makes us enjoy this game =)

The Vict's stock is going to rise with the point cost limit and options introduced

in core set battles, it is almost trivial to outmanuever, but imagine when there are other things to look out for (like, say, a whole other victory )

Being the slow forward-firing cannon that it is, the Victory is going to benefit a lot more from the introduction of more imperial capital ships taking up real estate or just different threats in general, where instead of offering then no brainer choice of "be in the front arc and die or don't" you can engineer situations such as "be in the front arc or be near this gladiator or set yourself up for rhymer's bombers, choice is yours" where the answer isn't quite so obvious

The Vict's stock is going to rise with the point cost limit and options introduced

in core set battles, it is almost trivial to outmanuever, but imagine when there are other things to look out for (like, say, a whole other victory )

Being the slow forward-firing cannon that it is, the Victory is going to benefit a lot more from the introduction of more imperial capital ships taking up real estate or just different threats in general, where instead of offering then no brainer choice of "be in the front arc and die or don't" you can engineer situations such as "be in the front arc or be near this gladiator or set yourself up for rhymer's bombers, choice is yours" where the answer isn't quite so obvious

Mind you I know the VSD are nasty and hard to take down but their speed is going to force you to take more in your fleet than just more VSD's or an ISD. You will need smaller ships to balance your fleet or your going to see games slip away. It is not like Fat Han that can fire in all directions with the same amount of dice. This game is going to be more about the Flanking and maneuvering than the full fury of the front hull zone.

So look more for balance than more fire power.

I have not played yet, or even really read the rules, so I'm just asking conceptual questions:

How correlated are speed and maneuverability? As I know they're slow to turn, why would a VSD even want to be fast? Doesn't it naturally prefer to slow-play in order to keep its adversaries in arc longer?

It is both slower overall and less manuver able at Speed 1 and 2. It surrender the initiative in getting to an advantageous board position and can lose the Rebel ships once they get an angle.

It is hugely benefited by being absolutely punishing in initial passes and far more robot the a CR90 and Neb B can realistically bring down.

The Rebel Ships need synergy to be effective. So their best chances come from combos.

For example the combo:

Yavaris, Tallon, a B-wing and Farlander

Because of the movement and range rules, the 2 B-wings should be able to keep in range of a VSD without moving for potentially(if not likely) 3 turns. In those 3 turns Farlander can attack 3 times a turn, the B-wing gets 2 attacks a turn.

Don’t forget Farlander throws 2 black dice which have a 50% chance of criting and a 25% chance of doing a damage and crit, before considering the rerolls against hull.

This means that the 2 B-wings can throw 30 anti-ship dice over 3 turns. Imperial ships are tough, but not that tough. Add in surviving X-wings and ships and that would be carnage. Then add objectives like most wanted and it only gets worse for the imperials.

This is overthinking things. Just because synergies exist doesnt mean they are better than just straight up massing dice.

It's too early to tell.

But let's speculate and thinking out loud. I will play rebels for two reasons:

- Looks (they have the most heterogeneus fleet, and i love clunky ships).

- Gameplay potential.

But i do think that rebels have a big advantadge that most people underestimate. Squadrons and cheap ships with a value of Anti Squadron fire of 2.

Anti squadron fire from ships is kind of a Area of Effect attack, since it allows to shoot multiple squadrons at the same time, where Tie fighters, with their low hull value will suffer the most on a head on battle, and since rebels have the mobility they can dictate this.

Of course this image isn't perfect, take into account that you don't want all your Xwing's facing the VSD front arc, because that way he would get 4 volleys for free, but it's just to explain it a bit.

The rebe ships can hang on the back covering the Xwings a bit longer until the Xwings force the imperial player's hand to try to handle them. That moment, even in the case of that the VSD gets to shoot the 4 Xwing squadrons with the anti squadron weaponry, the CR90 and Neb-B would get 6 rounds of shooting to the Tie fighters, each one, so the damage potential is way higher ((6x2)x2 = 24 Blue Dice vs 4 Blue dice). As i said before, take this is example as an example to illustrate the point about having a bigger amount of ships vs having few ships with a lot of firepower themselves. Squadrons.

I can see in the future, having a few bombers hanging on the back of the Xwings, and i can think of some ways for the empire player to deal with this kind of things, but definitly having cheaper swarms is not exactly a bonus.

The main problem with this sort of simplistic setup as part of your theory crafting is that the vsd can use a squadron command to guarantee at least 1 xwing dies a turn. Swarm is a really strong ability and once the squadron phase comes along the remaining ties will mince whatever is left. They wont send their ties into your guns. they will just hang back until you bring your stuff close enough for them to obliterate in a single turn.

Xwings in this current meta are probably the most useless things you could spend your points on. Putting another neb escort on the table would be a far better expenditure of points than 4 xwings.

Did you just look at the picture and answer or did you read what i wrote ? Just to know where you are coming from.

Your expectation that the vsd will play into your hands is a fallacy. If i were the imperial commander and that was the game state i would just keep my ties tight around me and just gun for your neb. This will force you to commit your xwings which means means i will likely get the jump on them with ties.

The strength of the vsd is that it doesnt need to use manuever or concentrate fire commands ever so it will just either be squadron or engineering commands all day.

But i have no expectation of the VSD coming to me, because it was just an image to illustrate how many dice more ships can toss out against squadrons, not as a layout or setup to face something in game.

So i wanted to know if my writing was that bad, or you just answered after glancing my post instead of reading it.

guys we are way too early into the lifespan of this game to be making any absolute judgements about anything apart from the blindingly obvious

also please note that Armada and forumada are not the same and any of these claims that things will happen are going to fall apart once anyone hits the table, else there'd be literally zero point in playing the game itself

I can't say that either of you are necessarily wrong about your employment of tactics, but, sonova, you are definitely wrong about Xwings being a waste of points. They are a very powerful tool the rebels have against the Star Destroyer at this point and more than a match for TIEs. You're both making great plans, however, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

My comment was that in its current state, rebel fighters are superfluous to this game as the basic tie is ridiculously good at killing other fighters. Your comment that you could draw the enemy ties out into your AA fire was more than abit simplistic because as someone pointed out earlier, vsds can tank 4 red dice all day without breaking a sweat. At best you are only going to get 2 red dice unopposed on the star destroyer in that scenario before the swarm literally clogs and dices your xwings into nothing. In a straight up deathmatch rebels will likely win because they can clog the field with cheap ships and threaten multiple hullzones at once. Not because of combined arms since they are straight up worse at it than the empire out of the box.

It will take a while for ties to kill something like a corvette let alone a frigate so the optimal play for rebels is to max out capital ships. Even when bombers become a thing you really only need something to pin them down while you pepper them with aa fire.

That was my whole point...

That more ships are better because of how AA works, and that's the advantadge they have to deal with squadrons oppossed to what Empire has with the core.

It will take a while for ties to kill something like a corvette let alone a frigate so the optimal play for rebels is to max out capital ships. Even when bombers become a thing you really only need something to pin them down while you pepper them with aa fire.

That's what the xwings are for.

As i said in my post, don't take the image to illustrate a specific gameplan, but to point out how AA gets exponentionally better:

- The more ships with AA you have.

- The more squadrons you can get to shoot at

- The less hull points those squadrons have

And here is where i speculate that i think it's the biggest advantadge rebels will have. The reason is because they can get very cheap 2 blue dice AA ships while empire can not do it. VSD only has 1 AA, while you can get 2 ships with 2 AAs with the core, which can obliterate Tie fighters really quick.

Tie fighters are good against squadrons, but to take advantadge of their rules, they have to stack, becoming easy prey of 2 AA ships.

I'm pleased you think Xwings are superfluous, but also dismayed because it tells me that your rebel opponents aren't worth their wings! Xwings devour TIEs. With the combination of firepower and protective anti squadron Fire from the frigate, they should at least be able to put up a fight. At least!

Tie's only beat X-Wings in two cases, when they are the aggressor, and they have a numbers advantage. Squadrons don't get less effective as they take damage, which means you need to clear out X-Wings by whole bases, which takes multiple Tie's at least. And if you don't, well X-Wings eat ties. Especially if Tie's lose the numbers advantage.

At the current Moment, you need X-Wings to threaten the Imperial player. Even if you don't intend to get into a fire-fight with a VSD, you need a possibility to actually threaten to KO it in a game, which you can't do with 1 Corvette and 2 Nebulons. It also lets you get at the Victory points that Tie's offer - Without a need to screen your VSD from fighters, the Tie's can just bugger off to a different corner, and be fairly easy points that you can't get to.

It's a necessary mind game I've found.

But in a month from now, the Imperials can field a 62 point Gladiator variant that will have 2x anti-squadron rolls, that only 5 more points that the Nebulon Escort type. (But also the Rebels will have an equivalent Star Destroyer class hip with 2 rolls as well).

Yeah i have to correct myself, since i was missguided, corvettes can't have 2 AA dice anymore, which i thought they had, but until i got the game today i couldn't see it's just one.

Anyways my first game was a sound win to the rebels, but we didn't use upgrades or commander, so that may had helped to have an easier time taking down the VSD.