@Osprey - FAIR WARNING: Internet forum posts will often veer off into semi-related and even unrelated topics. The odds of this increase greatly as the post number increases. We are at post #76 on this topic.

As a perfect example, what you are saying this topic is about (existence of Imp. Army or not) is not actually what it began as in post #1. The OP was basically, "why aren't there more Army troopers?", "what are they like?", and "what are local military/police like?" In your defense it did very quickly (post #10 to #15ish) veer into the "Does the Imp. Army exist?!" argument which this topic was inevitably headed to.

@ Sturn, I am not new to forums, the thread has basically stayed on topic the entire time. Most threads that go of topic don't go of topic as much as that guy just took this one. Usually the topic strays when someone is talking about the topic and mentions something along with that topic.

Example: I believe that there are or aren't Imp Amry, BTW what about Commissars?

I asked him what he was trying to say and I am waiting for an elaboration of what he said is all.

Thanks for the lesson though .

Sorry Osprey, but after re-reading your post again to see if I read it wrong, it still comes off as chiding TWJ for being off-topic when you yourself were off-topic.

Why did you say this? To me it has no bearing on whether or not there is an Imp Army, which is the point of this post. I haven't read about a question of loyalty in the imp army.

ETA: I've got no problem with someone being off-topic by the way. Much fun discussion starts this way. My problem was for calling someone out for it.

Continue. Sorry for the off-topic interuption to the off-topic, topic.

Sorry Osprey, but after re-reading your post again to see if I read it wrong, it still comes off as chiding TWJ for being off-topic when you yourself were off-topic.

Why did you say this? To me it has no bearing on whether or not there is an Imp Army, which is the point of this post. I haven't read about a question of loyalty in the imp army.

ETA: I've got no problem with someone being off-topic by the way. Much fun discussion starts this way. My problem was for calling someone out for it.

Continue. Sorry for the off-topic interuption to the off-topic, topic.

Again read my whole post, and I did engage him in his discussion.

I just made a statement, if you and I were face to face with a group of people talking about Imp army and whether it existed and you said well what about commissars, I would have said the same thing, but due to body language and a smile you wouldn't have taken it wrong.

I do believe Jewels has a good discussion starter and would love to see it as it's own thread.

* Shans are a creature I created, prone to violent and spontaneous tantrums when spooked suddenly. Think a furry, land dwelling hippo.

The Imperial Army is much like the The German Heer from WWII as they are highly trained (sorta), but at the end of the day are considered rather expendable. While I envision the vast bulk of them being actually rather competent at their jobs, there is also the question of what planets they come from (local culture DOES affect how people are trained, the effects of training, morale levels, competency, etc). If the IA needs to deploy troops in a relative hurry, I've seen mention of conscription, which is NOT something a professional army unless it really has no other choice. I Imagine in this scenario that the Empire's training is a bit more focused on political indoctrination than actual training with equipment. Which leads to some of the schleps we've seen in Star Wars from time to time as opposition.

Not to say political corruption of various Governors and Admins pocketing funds for training for their own funds. Which the Empire takes a VERY dim view of...but I digress.

In any event, I could see players finding out about certain detachments or areas, where the local troops are not up to snuff, or are corrupt and can be bribed. And properly take advantage of this.

The Imperial Army is much like the The German Heer from WWII as they are highly trained (sorta), but at the end of the day are considered rather expendable. While I envision the vast bulk of them being actually rather competent at their jobs, there is also the question of what planets they come from (local culture DOES affect how people are trained, the effects of training, morale levels, competency, etc). If the IA needs to deploy troops in a relative hurry, I've seen mention of conscription, which is NOT something a professional army unless it really has no other choice. I Imagine in this scenario that the Empire's training is a bit more focused on political indoctrination than actual training with equipment. Which leads to some of the schleps we've seen in Star Wars from time to time as opposition.

Not to say political corruption of various Governors and Admins pocketing funds for training for their own funds. Which the Empire takes a VERY dim view of...but I digress.

In any event, I could see players finding out about certain detachments or areas, where the local troops are not up to snuff, or are corrupt and can be bribed. And properly take advantage of this.

I can see where you are going with the conscription thing and relating it to is there an Imperil army. Due to the species-ism prevalent in the Empire, compulsive service is mandatory for human males, and it makes sense. Where better place to put a conscript in the Imp Military than a non-elite army? That could explain a lot.

But, I still think that the Imperial propaganda machine is so good that the Imps don't need a draft. Luke is just begging to join and become a pilot. Han Solo joins in EU (yes that's legends, not canon, but someone felt that there was enough there to make him an Imp in his back story). To tell the truth, with as poor as the outer rim worlds are and the numbers of young men it produces, why have conscription or compulsive service?

Where do you see mention of conscription in canon? (sorry I just saw that part) I may have missed mention of that in any of the canon sources or EU for that matter.

Oh yes. Imp Propaganda is very good and will work on many planets. But with places that have been more independent or were Separatist or Anti- imperial from the start, the Propaganda might be a harder sell See Alderaan or Naboo as examples

Oh yes. Imp Propaganda is very good and will work on many planets. But with places that have been more independent or were Separatist or Anti- imperial from the start, the Propaganda might be a harder sell See Alderaan or Naboo as examples

Those are 2 planets, you could add the Corellian sector, but it still doesn't answer my question. Where have you seen that the Imps use conscription?

Naboo supports the Empire is all that I have found, and follows a peaceful existence, Alderan had protesters, but is gone.

If you all recall in Episode IV luke was hoping to go join the Imperial Academy, Folks that far down the line after the fall if the Republic looked at the Empire as a stable thing and a place of opportunity. To say that there are no conscriptions would be wrong, but to say that there are no volunteers as well would be wrong. It goes to say that a regime like the Empire could function with just conscripts would be out of the picture, think of North Korea for example, the folks in the military, who are for the most part the Police there, or at least the strong arm of the police, I don't know the full structure of the police in N. Korea, but to say that the two aren't blended wouldn't be far off, even if they do have different command and control. The N. Korean military personal get better access to food and other creature comforts than the regular citizens might on a regular basis. Think 1950's cold war Stalin U.S.S.R. You had a secret police, but they could call upon the military to quash citizen uprisings like they did in Czech or Romania and almost did in Poland in the late 70's/early 80's during the solidarity movement.

I would place the Empire Police and Army as mixed, but different organizations though headed by one command and control structure. And when needed they can go to their superiors (the planetary governors and system/sector commanders depending on the size if Imperial presence and the number planets and populations sizes) who can call upon Storm Trooper assets who come with their own command and control structures and other physical assets. (ships, vehicles, etc).

Now I would place the Imperial army as acting like any modern military in training and mix of troop types, vehicle assets, medical and disaster training, readiness, etc). They fight like the a modern mixed engagement combined arms approach. They are normally effective.

You have to realize that the Clone Storm Troopers by the time the game times are running are not in the numbers they were during the clone wars, but they have been for a while supplemented by hopefuls hoping to get into the legendary Storm Troopers. Think of how many folks try to become SEALS, Rangers or Green Berets or any number of other international special forces ,Spetsnaz, British Commandoes, etc. Many try but don't make it.

In the O.P. question of what are the Imperial Police like? I'd say like Military Police. In Michigan here where I'm at we have a reserves unit of Military Police, (I think they are still based out of Michigan at least). They have their stuff here and meet on the two days every month. They are trained to handle light disaster, basic medical, but mainly in the control of prisoners (both military and civilian) and handling both civil unrest and dealing with other civilian issues, traffic issues, rationing, and providing general order and keeping lawlessness in line.

If they need they can call on the Imperial military and navy. Just as in Britain and France, the police do have access to guns and stuff but for heated situations they call on the military. So depending on the threat level things can ramp up quickly. Look at how fast the French had military ready to deal with the recent hostage situation a number of weeks back.

I hope that help the O.P. look at things in a somewhat clearer manner. It may not be the exact way the Imperial Army works and I could be way off, but it is a reasonable pathway to think of how the Imperial Police, Army and Navy work together.

KSW

There may be Military Police, but I think in most cases they'd be like MPs in the US - something few of us every see or interact with, because they only deal with military matters. The Empire is more Federalized than the Roman Empire or Riche that it's usually compared with. The Empire isn't the only government for 99% of the planets under it's control, it's just the overarching part.

Imperial Police, to the average citizen, would mean ISB - the rough equivalent to modern MI5 or FBI, as well as the Sector Rangers. These are all people looking for major inter-planetary or inter-sector criminal activity, as well as crimes against the Empire itself. Minor things like theft and run-of-the mill murder falls under planetary jurisdiction, and will be dealt with by the planetary law enforcement, be they Corillia's well trained Police or Jabba's thugs on tatooine.

Now, if a planet is having trouble maintaining order, that's when the Empire comes in with more force and personnel, and you get (hopefully temporary) martial law.

Absolutely right about the draft, if i remember right the Imps are still using clones so there may not be a need to be conscripts. As far as police are concerned you have inquisitors and local police. The local police are in the core and splat books.

In my Star Wars, both the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy have non-Humans, but the vast majority of them are non-officers or (at best) junior officers. There are just too many bodies needed for the Empire to totally forgo the use of non-Humans. I also expect that the non-Humans would be spread out thinly to keep them relative isolated from one another and they get more than the usual attention from the ISB.

OK, I did some poking around on Wookiepedia and there are cannon sources for Imp Army, it goes in to more on the legends tab. When you do the search on wookiepedia it comes up with:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=imperial+army&go=&fulltext=Search

When you hit the link on the above link and then Imperial Army. when you get to it make sure you are on the canon tab, then the legends tab has more description of the army.

The other 2 are not exactly canon, but the army trooper is pictured and it is the same uniform as the AT-ST pilots. When you look at the pilot one it states that the AT-AT drivers uniform is to keep them warm and it shows the AT-ST pilot.

With that being said, you can use non-canon as to what the army troopers look like until we have more in the way of canon sources.

As far as conscripts are concerned, the Imperials did not start drafting soldiers until after the 1st Death Star was blown. So Jewels you are correct that they did.

As far as Imperial police, you had Imperial Military Police that dealt with military matters, The Coruscant Security Force and the Sector Rangers, all other worlds had their own Security type forces. It's all on wookiepedia, and has canon to it .

Sorry Osprey, but after re-reading your post again to see if I read it wrong, it still comes off as chiding TWJ for being off-topic when you yourself were off-topic.

I have to chip in here and say that Osprey's post didn't read that way to me at all and I was about to make a similar post myself in response to TheWanderingJewel's one. It feels as though they're talking about an Empire that I don't recognize. Commissars? Conscripts? That feels more like WH40K's Imperium than Star War's Empire.

Of course anyone can take any direction they like with the material, but if it's significantly different to the standard, I usually like to see that clarified / acknowledged. The way TWJ wrote their post it's as if they take these things for granted as part of canon.

I guess it also ties into one of my personal beefs that comes up from time to time with Star Wars which is how people go "Empire = Evil" and pile in anything we consider evil in the modern world, as if "evil" is some team people belong to. The last time was in the thread about the lesbian character in an upcoming Star Wars novel where some took for granted that the Empire must be prejudiced against homosexuality because the Empire is "Evil". Their post makes me wonder if the same principle is at work here - that the Empire must have conscripts and commissars because they are Bad Guys. It's fine if the poster wants to take it in that direction, but I don't see any support for it in canon.

In my Star Wars, both the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy have non-Humans, but the vast majority of them are non-officers or (at best) junior officers. There are just too many bodies needed for the Empire to totally forgo the use of non-Humans. I also expect that the non-Humans would be spread out thinly to keep them relative isolated from one another and they get more than the usual attention from the ISB.

I do the same and to roughly the same degree. There is a Weequay soldier in my game who is loyal to the Empire. He keeps getting busted down to private for his attitude but that's more him than his species. The non-humans are less common and scattered for the reasons you give, but they exist, imo. The Empire in my game is Lawful Evil, not Lawful Stupid.

In the O.P. question of what are the Imperial Police like? I'd say like Military Police. In Michigan here where I'm at we have a reserves unit of Military Police, (I think they are still based out of Michigan at least). They have their stuff here and meet on the two days every month. They are trained to handle light disaster, basic medical, but mainly in the control of prisoners (both military and civilian) and handling both civil unrest and dealing with other civilian issues, traffic issues, rationing, and providing general order and keeping lawlessness in line.

Your sounds similar-ish to my own. I have Imperial Police as a pretty rare thing in my setting. Usually something is handled by the planet's own police. I think something people forget is that the Empire is an EMPIRE. It is not a single state. Planets / Systems are subject states of the Empire, not direct rule. Remember the comment in Ep IV when Tarkin announces that the Emperor has dissolved the Senate: "Impossible! How with the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?" And Tarkin's reply: "Regional governors will have direct control." It may be moving toward a single state, or with the dissolution of the Senate have technically done so. But these are both very recent things and you don't restructure a galaxy over night. Systems will have their own police forces and regional governments and (if trusted with them by the Emperor) planetary armies. When the Emperor exerts control it will be at the top, and the effects will trickle down. If there's high crime, the Empire might lean on the local government to crack down rather than roll in their own police force. It's actually pretty hard to impose a police force from the outside.

I write little vignettes before each game to set a scene and get a little more flavour into my game. My campaign is currently set around a world that has recently joined the Empire (peacefully, they're just a small mid-rim world that wanted the trade barriers lowered and piracy dealt with). One vignette had some Imperial forces setting up on the planet. I've put it here if anyone is interested:

http://1drv.ms/1auywvH

The point to note in it, I guess, is that the Empire officers are just supplementing the local police in some specific areas - namely anti-resistance and off-world smuggling. Think of the relationship between the FBI and state police in the USA. That's a little how I portray the Empire agents and actual police. A planet's police handle things normally but occasionally Imperial Customs or the ISB will step in (depending on whether it's a question of smuggling or resistance, typically) and say it's an Imperial matter. They'll often commandeer local resources / police whilst doing so.

I guess one more thing to say is that history is a fascinating subject and very enjoyable to read about. It also provides excellent fodder for making settings like this feel real. People keep likening the Empire to the Nazis. There's good reason for that as there are many parallels. And on the subject of propaganda and volunteers, note that EotE book mentions the Compnor Youth Brigades. The Nazis had these, Putin's Russia has these - highly patriotic youth organizations with an idealized vision of the head of government. In my game, set on a newly joined planet, such Youth Brigades are just starting to be set up. It is a very scary thing to see children being taught to idolize their state or a political leader.

But there are other great parallels as well. The British Empire is one that I draw on. The British used local police forces and government, but interceded where they wished - typically on matters of resistance and trade violations. The army would take control where they chose but otherwise were a reliant on local police enforcement for most crime. What they did handle was piracy and intercepting smugglers and this is a direct parallel in the Empire as I see it. The Empire has the navy and an interest in not allowing regional powers to build up their own (local navies lead to X-Wings, X-Wings lead to Rebellion, Rebellions lead Yavin) so you see a large Customs force in the Empire which enforce trade laws and deal with piracy, which is an exception to the usual delegation of law enforcement.

And when it comes to propaganda, keeping local officials "On Message" and so forth, I see political officers showing up to "advise". A little like the one that Captain Sheridan gets saddled with in Babylon 5. I found a clip:

For anyone who has not seen it, Sheridan is the man on the left and a long-serving military officer now in charge of an important space station. The lady on the right is a newly arrived "political advisor" to "help" with any political issues he might touch on.

Well...Losing the Death Star...even in a galactic empire...tends to show up as a line item in the recruitment budget if you loose all those personnel...

Returning to the original question, I received a copy of the Star Wars Essential Guide To Warfare today. It's copyrighted to Lucasfilm and has the Lucas Books mark on the back, so I think it's as close to a canon answer as we'll get, and it refers to an Imperial Army distinct from the Stormtroopers corps.

This (the battles in the movies required only the elite troops) used to be one of my signature arguments. Now that I've gone full circle, I think it pales against us never seeing even one Imperial Army Trooper on screen. What we do see is what has later been called Naval Troopers and Death Star Troopers. To me they've become Imperial Security Troopers while the infantry are the Stormtroopers. Note that on Endor what do we see guarding a SURFACE shield bunker in the jungle? The black clad mook troopers. Given the opportunity to see Imperial Army Troopers on the surface of a planet guarding a bunker, we don't see them but the Naval Troopers. To me it's because the mook Army Troopers don't exist. There is only one Imperial mook, the security guys.

You may also notice a shortage of US Army troopers at Naval Shipyard Norfolk; it's guarded by US Navy personnel. The Death Star is an Imperial Navy project. It makes sense that their security forces would be the ones manning the inside of the shield facility as opposed to Army troops. This justifies both the presence of Naval Troopers at a surface installation, and the Emperor's statement that an elite Stormtrooper Legion was present as well.

This (the battles in the movies required only the elite troops) used to be one of my signature arguments. Now that I've gone full circle, I think it pales against us never seeing even one Imperial Army Trooper on screen. What we do see is what has later been called Naval Troopers and Death Star Troopers. To me they've become Imperial Security Troopers while the infantry are the Stormtroopers. Note that on Endor what do we see guarding a SURFACE shield bunker in the jungle? The black clad mook troopers. Given the opportunity to see Imperial Army Troopers on the surface of a planet guarding a bunker, we don't see them but the Naval Troopers. To me it's because the mook Army Troopers don't exist. There is only one Imperial mook, the security guys.

You may also notice a shortage of US Army troopers at Naval Shipyard Norfolk; it's guarded by US Navy personnel. The Death Star is an Imperial Navy project. It makes sense that their security forces would be the ones manning the inside of the shield facility as opposed to Army troops. This justifies both the presence of Naval Troopers at a surface installation, and the Emperor's statement that an elite Stormtrooper Legion was present as well.

So the two guys in the AT-ST at the bunker (that along with a General are used to justify the entire Army branch and their uniforms) are instead Naval vehicle crewmen? A counter would be only the vehicle crew are Army since that's one of their specialties. But, then isn't surface warfare and defense also a specialty of the Army? George Lucas had a prime opportunity to finally reveal what could be the most numerous Imperial personnel in his Galaxy and didn't show us a single Army infantry trooper through three movies even when given a prime opportunity to do so.

My argument is that it's not Navy or Army, but just Imperial Militay. The vehicle crew, security, and infantry seen on Endor are all part of Imperial Forces.

However, I completely agree with your paragraph above and that is what I was arguing when I was on the other side of this issue. But, you can also flip it as evidence to the contrary as I did above. There are very good arguments to defend whichever version you want, I agree.

Returning to the original question, I received a copy of the Star Wars Essential Guide To Warfare today. It's copyrighted to Lucasfilm and has the Lucas Books mark on the back, so I think it's as close to a canon answer as we'll get, and it refers to an Imperial Army distinct from the Stormtroopers corps.

I don't think anyone has argued that Imperial Army Troopers aren't pervasive in non-movie canon. The arguments against them have been it was a game creation (WEG) that has been used repeatedly by the EU that George gave in to for $$. Imperial Army Trooper art, mentions in EU material, and finally mentions in Lucasfilm material (not Disney, yet) is a given. But, if you go back to the source of all of this the initial logical leap taken by WEG could be argued to be very faulty. The original material provided by George can easily be argued to suggest he never intended there to be a mook Army trooper, just the Storm Army trooper.

If you say Imperial Army infantry tooopers exist, you still have to contend with the fact it's the only Imperial personnel we never see on screen even with opportunities for it, a huge prop and uniform-making department, and decision makers who would jump at another opportunity to reveal a new uniform on screen.

Sturn, I agree wholeheartedly that lets call it military.

Returning to the original question, I received a copy of the Star Wars Essential Guide To Warfare today. It's copyrighted to Lucasfilm and has the Lucas Books mark on the back, so I think it's as close to a canon answer as we'll get, and it refers to an Imperial Army distinct from the Stormtroopers corps.

Anything that is published about SW has some sort of Lucas logo on it, It doesn't make it canon, it just shows that Lucas gave permission to publish it. All vid games has Lucafilms along with WEG book. Look in your FFG SW books and you will see a Lucas Books logo there.

Sturn, I agree wholeheartedly that lets call it military.

Returning to the original question, I received a copy of the Star Wars Essential Guide To Warfare today. It's copyrighted to Lucasfilm and has the Lucas Books mark on the back, so I think it's as close to a canon answer as we'll get, and it refers to an Imperial Army distinct from the Stormtroopers corps.

Anything that is published about SW has some sort of Lucas logo on it, It doesn't make it canon, it just shows that Lucas gave permission to publish it. All vid games has Lucafilms along with WEG book. Look in your FFG SW books and you will see a Lucas Books logo there.

Good point. Star Wars Tales #1 has the Lucas logo on it. Does that mean we should be allowing Droids in FFG to have force powers? Skippy the Astromech droid did. Do you think George actually approved of droids having force powers or he just approved of his cut of the profit?

I don't think we ever saw Imperial Customs on screen, but I accept them because their existence makes sense. I feel the same about the Imperial Army.

I don't think we ever saw Imperial Customs on screen, but I accept them because their existence makes sense. I feel the same about the Imperial Army.

Ah but customs doesn't need to be part of the military, customs in a US Airport were never part of the military and neither was Border Patrol. Prior to Homeland Security they were a part of Immigration and Naturalization, Coast Guard was military until Homeland came to being also, now the Coasties are Homeland Security. Military is Department of Defense, Customs is Department of Homeland Security.