Bolt Guns are the Iconic Weapon the Warhammer 40k, The Marines use them as their mainstay weapon, however (and please point out the RULES to correct this if I am wrong) but according the results of many many many combats in the DK game I am playing (the GM agrees with me as well) a low Tech Assualt Rifle beats a bolt easily because of one thing "auto Fire", why would hte marines use anything but normal Assualt Rifles (SP-Rifles) with autofire, in the combat system you can get reasonble penetrating bullets (AP Ammo) and so on and these combined with autofire and multiple hits equals a greater chance of getting a 10 and Emperor's fury, so please can anyone suggest how to make Bolt Guns more important (ie at least more effective then a Assualt Gun) otherwise I dont see the common sense of using one under the rules versus a high rate of fire assualt gun which is EAISIER to get and easier to buy (which to me makes little sense).

Infact, it seems my group has the same problems with Las Guns in comparison to Normal SP Rifles.

All Bolt weapons were made Tearing in the errata, meaning they roll two dice for damage and pick the best result. This will mean the bolt weapons rarely do low damage. Their Penetration value is also worth noting, especially since (as of the errata) Manstopper rounds increase the Pen value of SP weapons to a maximum of 3 rather than adding 3 on as they did before. Against armoured targets a bolter regularly achieves 6 more damage than a simple autogun would. The autogun prevails against unarmoured targets of course, but when there's a serious thread that needs putting down a bolter is the way to go.

Now, if only bolts weren't prohibitively expensive then players might use them more.

In addition space marine bolters are 2d10X, Pen 5 Tearing

1. Bolt weapons have higher Pen than manstopper ammo.

2. Bolt weapons can use special ammo like Incindiary, Holy, and Psycannon

3. Bolt weapons are damage type X, which generally has more spectacular and damaging criticals than type I.

4. Bolt weapons are Tearing (as mentioned earlier)

5. Some bolt weapons *can* fire full auto, although semi-auto is the preferred method due to ammo conservation (and is usually enough anyway).

6. Bolt weapons tend to have a higher damage bonus, without sacrificing Pen. For example, a bolt pistol is 1d10+5 Pen 4 (Tearing). It might not fire full-auto, but few SP pistols, especially ones that fire ful-auto, can match the combination of high-damage PLUS high Pen. The same holds true for the Basic versions.

As Snidesworth pointed out so well, against a large number of unarmored targets an autogun might be more effective, but against an armored target (or target with a higher T) the boltgun performs better. It's also better when shooting at/through cover. Also keep in mind that a bolt weapon is also a weapon of status, as well as brutality. See my point #3. It's one thing to see your friend shot, it's another to see your friend's head/chest/etc explode from the massive explosive rounds the boltgun expels ... a psychological advantage of a sort.

I've gotten into the habit of giving a +10 bonus to intimidate rolls for bolt weapons.

I've gotten into the habit of giving a +10 bonus to intimidate rolls for bolt weapons.

Since they'll usually be the biggest weapon in the room unless someone decided to bring the melta along, that's already factored into the rules.

Cifer said:

No no, in addition to the "biggest gun" bonus.

it also says that the normal "human" bolters are lighter versions of the one used by space marine.

in Purge the Unclean a space marine bolt pistol deals 2d10+2 Pen 5 (tearing)

it says also in inquisitors handbook around the navy section that any mortel that uses an Arstartes bolter would get there arm riped off by mere recoil.

In my group bolters remain supreme. With a decent ballistic skill on semi auto and mighty shot, you are pretty much dropping anything you hit in a single round cover, heavy armor not a problem. One of our most humerous moments came when a sister tried to cripple an attacker that was charging by shooting him in the leg. "Don't forget we need him alive for questioning" Blam Blam, leg gets blown to pieces. "Oh crap, can anyone stop bleeding on that?"

Heh, I had a humerous moment. We were playing one of the pre-made adventures... the one with the Chiurgeon (sp?). I had just bought my bolt pistol before the adventure, and only had 4 bolt shells for it (all I could afford), so I saved it up for the inevitable 'bad guy fight scene' of the adventure. I whip it out and fire off a shot at the bad guy, hitting the head and a rolling fury. Enough to cause a critical in that single hit ... the critical on the eXplosive type chart was stunned for 2d10 rounds (or something similar). A high number of rounds were rolled, and we ended up quickly overcoming the other guardians and restraining the Chiurgeon before she unstunned and were able to hand her over to our inquisitor for questioning. Luck, certainly, but largely due to the nature of the bolt pistol with high damage, pen, tearing, and explosive weapon damage type.

My group now has, since last session, two bolt pistols.
They truly consider them holy artifacts and have learned to respect them, mainly because the Guardsman had to burn a fate point to aquire the second one of a traitor acolyte.

Bolters are by far the best ranged, truly man portable, weapons.
They do have some severe disadvantages....rare costly ammo and being very obious...

No, my group likes them but use them sparingly...since they only have 3 clips divided among the two...

Yeah in all honesty, Bolt weapons are amazing. They have such a high chance of doing Righteous fury thanks to the tearing quality and their Pen insures that about half the armor in the game is useless against them. Plus the critical's they can inflict.... ohhhh it's glorius! All I know is, I would not want to be on the receiving end of a Semi-Auto from one of them since tearing applies to both dice, ohhh the chances for Righteous fury.

The shooty assassin in my game (as opposed to the melee assassin with twin power swords... ack) has acquired a custom built (for the =][=, not for him specifically, sanctioned by the Grey Knights and forged under the direct supervision of the Fabricator general of the Lathe worlds) sniper bolt-rifle... that uses the Astartes rounds (2d10+4 X, accurate and tearing). He also has 6 rounds of Grey-Knight psycannon rounds.

He's only ever used it once, as it was given to him with the understanding that it was to be used only against those enemies of the Imperium that were so dangerous that such a weapon was neccesary. He pulled it out when facing a psyker of unknown power, but only used it when the psyker's Daemonhost showed up... sadly he missed, and the daemonhost was butchered by the melee assassin and the cleric.

Me and the assassin of our group once did a practice fight against each other (our GM had already been too tired to throw "real" enemies at us). Although my Psyker has 15 Wounds my opponent's Bolt Pistol dealt enough damage to crit me. If I hadn't used the 'Seal Wounds' Power in every single round I would have died quite fast.

Terelo said:

Should have taken the 'catch projectiles' power. It can be used as a reaction and would have stopped those shells from hitting you. Not fair at all, but then that's a treacherous psyker for you.

I think i have to generally agree with the sentiment of the OP about boltguns, but i also think its a wider issue with much of the DH rules system and structure.

It seems to me that there are lots of issues that don't seem to match players expectations from the fluff, nor contribute to (the in my opinion non-essential) game balance.

To take the boltgun issue:

From a fluff perspective boltguns should outstrip the performance of all other small arms (stub/auto/la) by a long way. They are a weapon of choice for the elite forces, and a status symbol for officers, for good reason - they are far superior.

From a game perspective, 'progression' should be represented in the acquisition of gear also, so that for example starting PCs have access to 'common' weapons (las/auto/stub/etc.) and as they progress are able to upgrade to better firearms (eventually getting their hands on the good stuff like bolters).

The DH rules don't reflect either of these, unfortunately devaluing the fluff and game experience for some players.

That of course is not to say that DH 'doesn't work'. It just doesn't work as expected which is why i question many of the designs and design decisions made in the creation of DH. I think this leads to the many many threads there have been here and eslewhere about how much this or that 'sucks' about DH...

Bottom line, bolt guns DO outperform almost everything below heavy weapons, the exception being full auto capacity which is trivial to introduce as a variation and special qualities such as toxic or accurate. And even that is easily fixed by simply adding two thrones to get the inferno shells.

You say that the somewhat low damage of bolt guns when compared to raw does not contribute to game balance. Tell me what damage they should do that is both vastly superior and not unbalancing.

Luddite, do not forget, though, that the Bolters these "elite forces" use that you mentioned are twice as large as those that the Acolytes get their hands on. Considering that the Bolters the Acolytes and other unaugmented humans use are not Astartes-size they perform quite well in my opinion, especially once one takes the "Tearing" into account that was added with the errata.

I think if there is a weapon that is slightly under expectations it is the Plasma Guns from the Core Rulebook, but IH provided some with some more punch so it has become a non-issue.

Saibot said:

Indeed i agreed which is why i said

'That of course is not to say that DH 'doesn't work'. It just doesn't work as expected '

That said i find this strange 'astartes bolter' thing thats crept in a bit odd, but there you go. It seems to work in the context of Dark Heresy so no worries.

It just seems to me that theres an endless stream of threads about how much this or that 'sucks'. Players will always moan and complain of course, but it seems to me that many of these threads have a point. Indeed they've been adopted into the errata on occasion (changing the modifier limits to +/-60, sorting out the '1 shot kill' issue for snipers, clarifying 2-weapon use, autofire, etc.).

Personally i've sorted things out through houserules and tried to get a bit of consistency to the wargear (i've published some of it over at Dark Reign - bolters, lasweapons, power armour, etc.)

For me, for example, las weapons should be the first choice due to their reliability, ammo capacity, availability and utility, which my house rules tried to engender.

For bolters, 'they suck' is a valid response if you come at them with expectations based on the fluff, but within the context of the game RAW, you're right to say 'well they don't suck really'...you just have to adjust how you expect bolters to perform and accept the Dark Heresy 'vision' of how they are modelled. When heavy bolters can do only 2 Wounds of damage though (LESS than the minimum for normal bolters!), i reckon theres a core design problem that needs addressing...don't you?

Yes, I agree that the Black Industries/FFG made some strange decision with some weapons, but nothing that a creative GM can not sort out, like you obviously do. I just think that to say that the Bolters in DH "suck" is an overly harsh judgement, overlooking that the players just have to choose the equipment most appropriate for their given situation. A player who expects a Bolter to be the weapon that will get his dear backside out of every sticky situation, like the Emperor's Grace in the form of a gun, is simply mistaken.

And yes, that the Heavy Bolters have a lower minimum dmg than a Bolt Pistol is indeed totally ridiclious (although, rolling four dice might make it very unlikely to actually score so low).

All in all it often comes down to balance vs. lore*. We could have Bolters be much stronger, but in turn our dear players would have to wait for "X Weapon Training (Bolt)" and an apporpriate amount of thrones even longer.

* : Or what an individual player or GM considers the correct lore, considering how old 40K is, how vast it is, and how many retcons it has endured that is something no two people will ever fully agree on. The issue about Astartes having different (read "bigger") version of the equipment that unaugmented humans can use is such an issue, for example. I am sure people could cite various sources speaking for or against this, but BI/FFG had to make a decision for their RPG and that they did. Naturally, they could not satisfy anyone.

Saibot said:

Tearing only gives you one extra die....not one per dice rolled....so in case of the Heavy Bolter you roll 3 dice and keep 2...

Santiago said:

I just checked the errata and yes, you are correct.

Mea Culpa.

However, houseruling "One Extra Die-roll for every Damage Die" might be a good way to "fix" Heavy Bolters somewhat without tinkering with their stats too much.

Sorry but I just have to laugh at how many people keep missing the point that these are not Astartes Bolters but are infact the "civilian version" or rather the ones human has a chance of aquiring and firing without killing themselves from the massive recoil. Real Astartes Bolters do very little to stop the actual recoil of the weapon, that's what the marine in power armor holding the weapon is for. That armor of his has crazy recoil absorption, that's easy enough to see.

The simple fact is that they don't suck and if you are worried about the exploding 10's of righteous fury by an Autogun then you gotta consider a few things. For me personally, certain boss like characters (NPC's who have another purpose but to die really or could be touched by the powers of Chaos) are often immune to righteous fury. That balances it out very nicely. Also Full Auto will do more if and only if the person using the gone can afford to take that action, think about that. The bolter using person can easily crack of a single shot and split a person inhalf thanks to the high damage and tearing of the weapon.

Bolt shells are small rockets. Rockets propel themselves, i.e. it shouldn't be a weapon that has a lot of recoil. That being said, this is a game wherein you hit people with chainsaws. Fluff wise, I'm not sure if there's such a thing as a civilian bolter so that's possibly a reason for complaint. I think they work fine.

And those chainsaws still do only four points of damage and two points of penetration more than a really sharp sword. It's a balance thing.