Since FFG decided to nerf TIE Phantoms by limiting how useful they are because now they can only decloak at the start of the activation phase before anyone has moved or reveal dial, they should have the point cost reduced. Anyone else feel the same?

No.

TIE Defenders should get a point cost reduction (or free bonus) first.

No. It isn't a 'nerf', it's a subtle adjustment to the mechanics. I don't see the Phantom as being 'worth' any less than it was, it will just alter the way that it is played. If anything, the Phantom as was, with ACD, was a little undercosted.

Ultimately, the community have been crying out for the Phantom to be adjusted for months now, with the ship pretty much dominating competitive lists alongside 'Fat Han' - I for one am glad that rather than any knee jerk sweeping change to points cost or mechanics, FFG have taken the time to design a subtle and interesting adjustment.

The logic here is that the Phantom was too powerful for its cost. They reduced its power so that it was a better fit for its cost.

Reducing its cost, then, would defeat the purpose of the fix.

Whisper and Echo should switch point costs.

Ultimately, the community have been crying out for the Phantom to be adjusted for months now, with the ship pretty much dominating competitive lists alongside 'Fat Han

With Fat Han only in play because you had to deal with hypermobile Phantoms. This adjustment makes more lists viable, including lists suited to deal with Han.

Only 2 days since we learned about the Phantom change and already we see people asking for a cost reduction. I say give it time to see the real impact it has on the game before jumping to conclusion.

I think the change will bring some fresh air to the tournament scene. A certain phantom ship has been haunting the tables for too long now.

Ultimately, the community have been crying out for the Phantom to be adjusted for months now, with the ship pretty much dominating competitive lists alongside 'Fat Han

With Fat Han only in play because you had to deal with hypermobile Phantoms. This adjustment makes more lists viable, including lists suited to deal with Han.

I actually thought that the Segnors Loop and lots of other things in Scum looked like they were deliberately designed to encourage people away from a reliance on turrets and phantoms (in my own, uneducated and non Mathwing way) so this just follows on from that. End of the day, FFG have always worked hard to make the tournament environment compelling and inviting. It was no secret, especially after Worlds 2014 that the majority of competitive lists were Phantom/Deci or Fat Han and Talas. This looks to me like a well thought out and subtle way of adjusting things to encourage more variety. And from the point of view of a player as well as a spectator (no way I can afford to travel to Worlds for a while yet) that can only be a good thing in my opinion.

On one hand I want to post about how bad this thread is and what a bad idea it is and how the Phantom was overpriced. On the other, I don't want to contribute to having this thread continue. Oh....wait....dang. I just did.

Nope.

Ultimately, the community have been crying out for the Phantom to be adjusted for months now, with the ship pretty much dominating competitive lists alongside 'Fat Han

With Fat Han only in play because you had to deal with hypermobile Phantoms. This adjustment makes more lists viable, including lists suited to deal with Han.

I actually thought that the Segnors Loop and lots of other things in Scum looked like they were deliberately designed to encourage people away from a reliance on turrets and phantoms (in my own, uneducated and non Mathwing way) so this just follows on from that. End of the day, FFG have always worked hard to make the tournament environment compelling and inviting. It was no secret, especially after Worlds 2014 that the majority of competitive lists were Phantom/Deci or Fat Han and Talas. This looks to me like a well thought out and subtle way of adjusting things to encourage more variety. And from the point of view of a player as well as a spectator (no way I can afford to travel to Worlds for a while yet) that can only be a good thing in my opinion.

I think Feedback Array and Autoblaster Turrets were excellent little Phantom-counters in their own right, but not nearly enough by themselves. The state of the small lists/large turrets was starting to keep people at home instead of going to their FLGS to compete.

feedback and auto-thrusters are more for zone control than actually killing phantoms. They're easy to get around thanks to how trivial range 1 is to navigate with barrel-rolls, but woe onto you if you end up in the area that those Ys and Zs are guarding (especially if you bump). If you don't, you'll probably have xizor or something breathing down your neck. Good positioning will let you push through the 1-2 damage necessary to end a phantom or soontir's life but don't expect to 100%-0% anything with them.

feedback Zs are a fair bit easier to utilize because of the nature of feedback and the numbers you can bring, but you pay for them via self damage and ionization.

As for the phantom, there has already been ample mention of how the errata isn't a nerf. The savy player will dervive plenty of benefits from de-cloaking, especially when it comes to blocking enemies and not being blocked provided he plays around the new timing. A nerf would be a strict decrease in power, like if FFG just took away the system and crew slots or shot ACD out the airlock (**** thing is still really powerful), and this is certainly not the case here.

Phantoms didn't get weaker they just became different and harder to play because you can no longer trivially change your mind. Your choice of decloak is now a pressing issue and the wrong decision can mean your life, bringing phantoms closer to Soontir's actual glass cannon status (not really though, because Whisper still gets TL, cloak, focus after getting blocked as long as she shoots). Basically, all FFG did was take the training wheels off the phantom

No. Heck, they can decloak now when ionized. Maybe they need a point increase.

What? The whole reason they made this change was because the phantoms were too powerful for their cost, so this was to properly balance their cost. Changing that would just throw off the cost balance they just fixed...

Nope

Yes, I really think that FFG thought "well, we should change the decloak rules to make Phantoms worse, and then, since we nerfed them, we should lower the point cost to make them better again, so that they're at the same power level as they were before, back when they were winning tournaments in 86 point lists and forcing every single squadron to incorporate some sort of counter to them. Good idea, right?"

("Or we could just keep them like they are...."

"Shut up, Fred!")

Maybe the uniques, but it's not that big of a deal, compared to, as stated, the overcosting of the generic superfighters.

Maybe the uniques, but it's not that big of a deal, compared to, as stated, the overcosting of the generic superfighters.

those are relatively unchanged by the errata

Their puny PS means they were only decloaking after generics anyway, and the sigmas are not even able to get around talas!

well, the only way I ever ran them was with IA for that sweet, sweet de-cloak blocking action (and, you know, knowing if it was a good idea to barrel-roll or focus or evade or re-cloak safely, IA just opens up a whole other world for generic phantoms) so those guys are basically the same as they've always been for me

but the problem with Sigmas was never really their cost, nor was it the amazingness of whisper and ACD (though that didn't help since it overshadowed them like all hell...), it's just turrets. Yes, we're back to interceptor syndrome, but that's what happens when a lazy-ass, poorly designed rule invalidates the whole point of an entire class of ship.

Why do you think ACD was made in the first place (hint: for the four agility )?

Since FFG decided to nerf TIE Phantoms by limiting how useful they are because now they can only decloak at the start of the activation phase before anyone has moved or reveal dial, they should have the point cost reduced. Anyone else feel the same?

Considering people were winning tournaments with 80ish point twin Phantom lists, you'll have a hard job convincing anyone that the Phantom needs a price cut.

Feel free to try though.

No.

/end thread

No. B-Wings should be set at 23 points so you can't squeeze that Bandit in though.

[edit]

No

No.... Since Phantoms with ACD were about 16 points undercosted.

Since FFG decided to nerf TIE Phantoms by limiting how useful they are because now they can only decloak at the start of the activation phase before anyone has moved or reveal dial, they should have the point cost reduced. Anyone else feel the same?

1. FFG cannot alter point costs.

2. Why would they errata the phantom to weaken it, then strengthen it again with a discount? That would make the whole nerf a pointless exercise.

Whisper and Echo should switch point costs.

Nah, if anything the new ruling hurt Echo more. He relies more on decloak for movement and surprise than Whisper.

I think they're both good where they are.