Hello!

I am specialising my scum character in ballistics and want to take the two-weapon-wielder skill. I studied the skills and tech-trees as well as this forum, but there are still two questions open.

I understand how Ambidextrous, Gunslinger, and Two-Weapon-Wielder work together. The rulings to Dualshot are pretty clear as well. Contrary to Dualshot, however, Two-Weapon-Wielder allows you "two attacks as a full action". The talent "Independent Targetting" indicates very strongly, almost decisively, that two targets can be chosen. Normally, you can use a half-action for aiming and then use a full-action for shooting. So I should be able to this with a second weapon off-hand. Does the half-aim (or full-aim, if I wait until my next turn) count for both weapons/shots or just for one of them? I have a red-dot-sight mounted on my Carnodon (accurate), so that a half-aim would give me a +30 BS on single shot. With a clip size of 6 I do not necessarily want to fix it on semi-auto. A hypothetical second Carnodon with Red-Dot-Sight would require a seperate aiming action to gain any boni? Or does the half-aim action cover both weapons? I found it surprisingly easy to keep real-time track of two moving targets with two 'pistol fingers' so I think the idea isn't that far off, that a trained shooter like my character could do the same with actual pistols and far more accurate. The additional talent "Independent targetting", which allows you to practically aim left and right in a 180° degree angle, sounds a bit more fantastic (reminds me of the movie 'Equilibrium' with Keanu Reeves). Taking this whole thing one step further and including Hip Shooting, could I do a full-aim as move action and still get the free shot? Realistically, hip shooting shouldn't allow for any aiming at all. I am not even sure, if an aim action counts as movement.

So the simple queston again: Does the aim action for two shots with two-weapon-wielder - without the use of Dualshot - include both targets or just one of the pistols? Also, would Hip Shooting allow me to do a full-aim and a free shot?

Thank you very much in advance!

Off the top of my head:

Does the aim action for two shots with two-weapon-wielder - without the use of Dualshot - include both targets or just one of the pistols?

The [Aim Action] would only affect the first shot from the first pistol, and only if the triggering attack was a [standard Attack]. The second shot will never benefit from an Aim Action, unless, as you mentioned, [Dual Shot] is invoked. Narratively, the shooter's aim would "reset" as his arms shift from the first shot's recoil.

Also, would Hip Shooting allow me to do a full-aim and a free shot?

[Hip Shooting] is a unique Action that is roughly equivalent to a [Full Move Action]. Thus, the Action order could be considered "Aim -> Full Move -> Attack". As the [Aim Action] does not directly precede the attack, Hip Shooting cannot benefit from an Aim Action. Again, narratively the shooter's aim would "reset" as his body changes from being stationary to moving.

Isn't two-weapon wielder by wording a simultaneous shot with both weapons? It is a single attack action and not two half-action shots (as was argued in other threads before), as a single shot with any one of the two weapons would still be a full attack action as well. So I don't really accept the argument of moving body parts after the "first" shot.

Considering a maximum Ballistics Skill of 60 with full upgrades, I would be limited to 40 for any shot I take with my second pistol (no possibility of getting boni for accurate, Red-Dot Laser Sight etc.), and that can be dodged on top of that as well. That isn't really worth the ammunition, in my opinion. Going full auto on the left-hand makes the whole thing much stranger narratively. I can't aim with my right hand, while my left hand is erratically twitching the whole time on full auto. I would rather go for the ruling that you can only aim at all , if both pistols are set on single shot.

I agree with the argument on Hip-shooting, as it lets you make a full-move action with an attack included as one action (or two shots as two-weapon wielder or even a dualshot) - basically what I thought about two-weapon-wielder being a simultaneous attack. So you contradicted yourself already. It would be a weird mechanic that allowed you a half action for aim, a full move action and 2 seperate attacks in one turn!

I'm really just interested if there is a specific rule that states, two-weapon-wielder can only aim one of the weapons and point the other vaguely in the direction of a second target. If there is, I don't see any point in following the ballistic skill tree at all, even if melee is a bit more expensive in XP.

Isn't two-weapon wielder by wording a simultaneous shot with both weapons? It is a single attack action and not two half-action shots (as was argued in other threads before), as a single shot with any one of the two weapons would still be a full attack action as well. So I don't really accept the argument of moving body parts after the "first" shot.

In a word? No; keep in mind that a [Full Auto Burst] is a Full Action that spans across the the entire Round of five or some odd seconds. A Full Action where dual-wielding is concerned does not automatically equate to simultaneous attacks. That is where [Dual Shot] and [Dual Strike] come in. Otherwise, the character is assumed to be firing/swinging one weapon at a time. My argument is colored by the later, and arguably more balanced, games which employ the rules I am mentioning.

I would rather go for the ruling that you can only aim at all , if both pistols are set on single shot.

Again, with a Full Action taking 5 seconds as an abstraction, the character could take the single shot first (thus benefiting from the Aim Action) before following up with a Semi- or Full Auto Burst.

I agree with the argument on Hip-shooting, as it lets you make a full-move action with an attack included as one action (or two shots as two-weapon wielder or even a dualshot) - basically what I thought about two-weapon-wielder being a simultaneous attack. So you contradicted yourself already. It would be a weird mechanic that allowed you a half action for aim, a full move action and 2 seperate attacks in one turn!

Where is this contradiction? If I made I mistake, I will correct it. Once more, Two-Weapon Wielder does not equate to simultaneous attacks, the attacks are assumed to be staggered.

I'm really just interested if there is a specific rule that states, two-weapon-wielder can only aim one of the weapons and point the other vaguely in the direction of a second target. If there is, I don't see any point in following the ballistic skill tree at all, even if melee is a bit more expensive in XP.

[independent Targeting] negates the usual 10m target restriction, thus a character may fire at targets in opposite directions like you wanted.

Isn't two-weapon wielder by wording a simultaneous shot with both weapons? It is a single attack action and not two half-action shots (as was argued in other threads before), as a single shot with any one of the two weapons would still be a full attack action as well. So I don't really accept the argument of moving body parts after the "first" shot.

In a word? No; keep in mind that a [Full Auto Burst] is a Full Action that spans across the the entire Round of five or some odd seconds.

I agree with the argument on Hip-shooting, as it lets you make a full-move action with an attack included as one action (or two shots as two-weapon wielder or even a dualshot) - basically what I thought about two-weapon-wielder being a simultaneous attack. So you contradicted yourself already. It would be a weird mechanic that allowed you a half action for aim, a full move action and 2 seperate attacks in one turn!

Where is this contradiction? If I made I mistake, I will correct it. Once more, Two-Weapon Wielder does not equate to simultaneous attacks, the attacks are assumed to be staggered.

if two weapon wielder splits the full turn attack into two seperate action, so must hip shooting split it's full-move action and free attack (which can be stacked with two weapon wielder) into 2 have move actions and 2 seperate attacks. Meaning, that with an half-aim or similar half-action before, a character can use up to 3 half actions AND 2 (half-turn) attacks, resulting in 5 half-actions, which is more than 2 normal full turns.

You are agueing, that hip shooting does a movement and the attacks "in one", which narratively is shooting while moving (which is undoubtedly the intention behind it). I don't see two weapon wielder shooting alternately with two pistols tomb raider style. (In fact, lara croft is using Dualshot, which you claimed to be a simultaneous shot, hence the single ballistic test.) Two weapon wielder melee needs to attack one after the other, cause the weapons could interfere with each other, but melee doesn't aim.

Wielding two pistols, I see no obvious reason why you would pull the triggers one after the other. In a dual handed shooting you would jump out of cover, take aim with both your revolvers, pull the triggers simultaneously and ducking back into cover again.

I would love to see the part of the rulings on which you base your statement that the two attacks are not simultaneous, like I already posted that the wording sounds like a single attack, not two successive shots. Also, why would the recoil of my right arm interfere with the aiming of my left arm? Provided I am used to shooting two weapons in that manner.

Let me put it this way:

• The combat system is an abstraction: you can fluff it any way you like as long as you conform to the outlined rules.
• if you need to make separate Tests, the Attacks are considered separate.
• Weapon attacks are not synchronized (i.e., requiring one Test) unless [Dual Shot] or [Dual Strike] is used.
• [Hip Shooting] is essentially a [Full Move] Full Action followed by one or two Attacks as separate Free Actions. Similarly, [Two-Weapon Wielder] consists of some manner of attack as a Full Action (at least in DH1) followed by another attack as a Free Action.
• Hip Shooting does not benefit from an Aim Action because the triggering Action is considered a Full Move first. Similarly, Two-Weapon Wielder's first attack (as a Full Action) consumes the Aim benefits while the second attack (as a Free Action) has no Aim Action to benefit from.

Again, my answers stem from what I consider the "second generation" of games (i.e., post DH1/RT/DW) where issues like these are more clearly outlined. My opinion is just that: an opinion. Perhaps someone more DH1-minded can assist you.