By now I assume everyone on this board has heard the news about the Phantom and the inclusion of Debris tokens for tournament play. Since I'm one of the resident TIE Defender nuts, I immediately started thinking in terms of ramifications on it. With the Phantom having to pick its decloak before anyone moves, it isn't quite as responsive as it was before, but it still hits like a brick with the 4 attack dice and options for Gunner and FCS and the like. ACD still makes PS important, but not nearly as significant in combating the ships, and the lethality of the Phantom is somewhat reduced because it cannot adjust to enemy movement as well. Furthermore, the inclusion of Debris Fields in official games allows one to bring up to three large obstacles (large rock and 2 large Debris Fields). Both types of obstacles cause problems to action-dependent ships like Soontir Fel and Darth Vader as well as Phantoms. It's a subtle change, but might have an impact.

So why does the Defender care? Before April 15th, The Defender had a hit point and Cannon advantage against Phantoms and Interceptors, but a generally lower maneuverability advantage and less responsiveness. The advantages it could bring were real, but sometimes hard to make use of. The increase in restrictive terrain opens up a place for Defenders to operate. An HLC armed Delta is in the same points ballpark as a well-equipped Soontir Fel or Darth Vader, or a cheapish Whisper. It provides a firepower increase compared to all three, particularly if actions are taken away. It also has a substantial durability advantage to the others if Stress has been added, and actually has a greater maneuverability advantage under stress thanks to the white K-turn. The named pilots can further this advantage with action-less EPTs such as Predator and Lone Wolf. Vessery's pilot ability also fulfills this need. These EPTs are borderline irresponsible on Whisper or Soontir Fel, and although they are good on Vader, his actionless offense is quite low even with EPTs.

I'm not trying to say that Defenders will be the new go-to small ships for Imperial Squads, there's still lots of ways to argue that the big 3 Imperial pilots are better than Defenders in many ways. There is, however, a more defined set of advantages for these ships.

I gotta look up what the heck debris fields even do. I've never played with them.

The "greater maneuverability advantage under stress" holds true only as long as you don't need to turn.

The cloak nerf is advantageous for a lot of ships, so to observe that the Defender might be in a better place now isn't especially surprising or novel. Unfortunately, it still suffers from a lot of the same problems that it had before, chief among them being point cost and a backwards dial.

The "greater maneuverability advantage under stress" holds true only as long as you don't need to turn.

Because you can't do those white maneuvers while stressed! Seriously this is getting old, it has a 1 bank and a 3 turn, that gets you pretty much where you need if you know how to fly it, aka planning ahead with your maneuvers for the turn after.

You only take damage on a crit roll, you take a stress for passing through them, and they don't stop you from shooting if you land on them. Debris clouds really do change things up; some builds love 'em and others really don't want anything to do with them. I just like the subtle variety it gives you.

Many people would K-turn over a rock since they'd lose their action from stress anyway, but double stress is not cool.

In an ironic twist of fate, the Phantom can now block the Delta Defender's 4K.

Oh God... not another one.

The Defender doesn't really gain much from the Phantom nerf or debris clouds. A Phantom will still be able to run rings around a Defender. Also, I don't see how a ship that doesn't really like stress gains anything by running through debris clouds and stressing itself. Yeah, Vessery can still get TLs and you can use predator, but not being able to action at all hurts any ship. Especially a ship that costs a 1/3 of your list or more.

Vader will still be better than any Defender and its not even close.

The "greater maneuverability advantage under stress" holds true only as long as you don't need to turn.

Because you can't do those white maneuvers while stressed! Seriously this is getting old, it has a 1 bank and a 3 turn, that gets you pretty much where you need if you know how to fly it, aka planning ahead with your maneuvers for the turn after.

What you do is only half of the equation. Choosing maneuvers is not done in a vacuum; there is another person sitting on the opposite side of the table that needs to be taken into account, and they're not always going to put you into a position where "all I need to do is pick the right maneuver and I win."

Not much will change for the Defender because people seem to choose to hate it and, like the Tie Advanced, is overcosted.

Personally, I really like it but still feel that it should have gotten the System Upgrade slot and Boost action at its current cost. I also feel that the E-Wing should have gotten a Cannon slot as well, but I'm hoping FFG add this whenever they revisit these two ships again.

options for Gunner

Gunner only triggers if you miss, with a four dice attack that's not that likely. Gunner's a little silly on the phantom given its price and the other options available, especially now Intelligence Agent is so potent on them.

A Phantom will still be able to run rings around a Defender.

In the hands of a highly skilled player yes, but the phantom's a fundamentally changed ship now. Its advantage is no longer hypermaneuverability unless you're talking low PS blockers, it's the opponent not knowing where it is. But it is in one of those three (or six) positions now.

options for Gunner

Gunner only triggers if you miss, with a four dice attack that's not that likely. Gunner's a little silly on the phantom given its price and the other options available, especially now Intelligence Agent is so potent on them.

The U.S. national champion list suggests otherwise.

The "greater maneuverability advantage under stress" holds true only as long as you don't need to turn.

Because you can't do those white maneuvers while stressed! Seriously this is getting old, it has a 1 bank and a 3 turn, that gets you pretty much where you need if you know how to fly it, aka planning ahead with your maneuvers for the turn after.

What you do is only half of the equation. Choosing maneuvers is not done in a vacuum; there is another person sitting on the opposite side of the table that needs to be taken into account, and they're not always going to put you into a position where "all I need to do is pick the right maneuver and I win."

Before the Decloak change, high-PS Phantoms had a decisive advantage. They could see where you had moved to, and had a ton of options to reposition in reaction to that information.

Unless they have an Intelligence Agent, that early advantage is gone. They can probably guess where you are moving to (seriously, every ship usually has only one or two moves that are actually good at a given point in the game, and it's not hard to predict where they're going to go in most situations). Once a Phantom decloaks, their position is going to be fixed, give or take a barrel roll.

If a Defender pilot can guess where the Phantom was going to decloak to, and what they set their dial, they have a shot to anticipate and get them in arc. That's a huge boost to them in a joust compared to what they had before.

options for Gunner

Gunner only triggers if you miss, with a four dice attack that's not that likely. Gunner's a little silly on the phantom given its price and the other options available, especially now Intelligence Agent is so potent on them.

It was always the Gunner/FCS combo that was potent, though it may be more of a gamble under the new rules. And four dice will miss a lot, especially when making unmodified attacks against 3+ agility ships. Seriously, shoot four dice against AT/SD Soontir. See how often he lets you actually hit him.

Oh God... not another one.

The Defender doesn't really gain much from the Phantom nerf or debris clouds. A Phantom will still be able to run rings around a Defender. Also, I don't see how a ship that doesn't really like stress gains anything by running through debris clouds and stressing itself. Yeah, Vessery can still get TLs and you can use predator, but not being able to action at all hurts any ship. Especially a ship that costs a 1/3 of your list or more.

Vader will still be better than any Defender and its not even close.

I don't mean to suggest you wontanly run through debris fields, but if you can and not open yourself up to a very dangerous situation.

The "greater maneuverability advantage under stress" holds true only as long as you don't need to turn.

Because you can't do those white maneuvers while stressed! Seriously this is getting old, it has a 1 bank and a 3 turn, that gets you pretty much where you need if you know how to fly it, aka planning ahead with your maneuvers for the turn after.

What you do is only half of the equation. Choosing maneuvers is not done in a vacuum; there is another person sitting on the opposite side of the table that needs to be taken into account, and they're not always going to put you into a position where "all I need to do is pick the right maneuver and I win."

Except for the part, that it really is. If you set yourself up right, the limits to mobility doesn't necessarily have to be bad hence why a Z or Y can still keep up with an interceptor if you plan ahead albeit it is harder, you still have access to your K-turn as well. Anyways, didn't you post like a few months ago that since scum was coming out you were going to have no part of this game any more? Hence the absences from the boards? Did that get redacted?

Gunner only triggers if you miss, with a four dice attack that's not that likely. Gunner's a little silly on the phantom given its price and the other options available, especially now Intelligence Agent is so potent on them.

It must be nice having dice that do exactly what you tell them!

Gunner is amazing on Whisper (with FCS).

The increase in restrictive terrain opens up a place for Defenders to operate. An HLC armed Delta is in the same points ballpark as a well-equipped Soontir Fel or Darth Vader, or a cheapish Whisper. It provides a firepower increase compared to all three, particularly if actions are taken away. It also has a substantial durability advantage to the others if Stress has been added, and actually has a greater maneuverability advantage under stress thanks to the white K-turn. The named pilots can further this advantage with action-less EPTs such as Predator and Lone Wolf. Vessery's pilot ability also fulfills this need. These EPTs are borderline irresponsible on Whisper or Soontir Fel, and although they are good on Vader, his actionless offense is quite low even with EPTs.

We have totally opposed minds.

The increase in restrictive terrain hinders the defender more than other ships. Not only obstacles will be larger, but the defender also lacks the maneuverability to properly dodge them in many cases. With rocks, at least, you have shields to say "to the hell with it if I fail", but with debris fields, you not only lose your action, you also gain a stress token that you'll have problems to shed off or will make yourself a vulnerable target in the next turn, whereas other more maneuvrable ships, especially interceptors, will have a green maneuver to get rid of it and steer to the right place at the same time. Yeah, you can still do the white 4K... just to eat the same debris field again?

If you fight in an asteroid field you will definitely need the 1 & 2 turns. And I don't need to tell you what color those maneuvers are in the defender's dial. And If you refuse to enter the asteroid field, congratulations, you have a small base ship that has to fight as if it were a large-based ship.

Without actions and stressed, even the almighty HLC will perform poorly, and without the possibility of taking defensive actions (Which is a mere Focus token in the case of Defenders), the 3 naked green dice will provide the same protection as a condom vs a chainsaw.

Sure, actionless, you will last one more shot than an interceptor, or about the same as an advanced, thanks to the shields. Meanwhile, soontir and Vader are offering PS9 against your PS1, plenty more maneuverability and all kind of shenanigans thanks to their upgrades.

options for Gunner

Gunner only triggers if you miss, with a four dice attack that's not that likely. Gunner's a little silly on the phantom given its price and the other options available, especially now Intelligence Agent is so potent on them.

The U.S. national champion list suggests otherwise.

Incidentally I ran the numbers on this for Nova episode #21 which should be airing monday. The extra 7 points to upgrade to Buzzsaw Whisper basically pays for itself once you use the evade twice.

I'm in a wait and see mode on this one. I love my defenders, and yes this will help a bit. But everyone else gets help too. The one think I see, is that flying through the debris causes stress, but at least you can still shoot. With an HLC, not having an action is not as bad, but this will require some testing to see how it all pans out.

This will help defenders against higher ps phantoms, but it won't make them suddenly A-list. The popularity of ps9 whisper brought out a lot of fat defender targets. Those will be less common.

The increase in restrictive terrain opens up a place for Defenders to operate. An HLC armed Delta is in the same points ballpark as a well-equipped Soontir Fel or Darth Vader, or a cheapish Whisper. It provides a firepower increase compared to all three, particularly if actions are taken away. It also has a substantial durability advantage to the others if Stress has been added, and actually has a greater maneuverability advantage under stress thanks to the white K-turn. The named pilots can further this advantage with action-less EPTs such as Predator and Lone Wolf. Vessery's pilot ability also fulfills this need. These EPTs are borderline irresponsible on Whisper or Soontir Fel, and although they are good on Vader, his actionless offense is quite low even with EPTs.

We have totally opposed minds.

The increase in restrictive terrain hinders the defender more than other ships. Not only obstacles will be larger, but the defender also lacks the maneuverability to properly dodge them in many cases. With rocks, at least, you have shields to say "to the hell with it if I fail", but with debris fields, you not only lose your action, you also gain a stress token that you'll have problems to shed off or will make yourself a vulnerable target in the next turn, whereas other more maneuvrable ships, especially interceptors, will have a green maneuver to get rid of it and steer to the right place at the same time. Yeah, you can still do the white 4K... just to eat the same debris field again?

If you fight in an asteroid field you will definitely need the 1 & 2 turns. And I don't need to tell you what color those maneuvers are in the defender's dial. And If you refuse to enter the asteroid field, congratulations, you have a small base ship that has to fight as if it were a large-based ship.

Without actions and stressed, even the almighty HLC will perform poorly, and without the possibility of taking defensive actions (Which is a mere Focus token in the case of Defenders), the 3 naked green dice will provide the same protection as a condom vs a chainsaw.

Sure, actionless, you will last one more shot than an interceptor, or about the same as an advanced, thanks to the shields. Meanwhile, soontir and Vader are offering PS9 against your PS1, plenty more maneuverability and all kind of shenanigans thanks to their upgrades.

I fight from asteroid clusters regularly with my Defenders. I find the 1-bank is very useful, as is the 3-turn (for going around nearby asteroids). Furthermore, an action less HLC is very close in damage to Soontir with a focus at mid range (a little better at long, worse at short).

This will help defenders against higher ps phantoms, but it won't make them suddenly A-list. The popularity of ps9 whisper brought out a lot of fat defender targets. Those will be less common.

This is true.

I don't think it will change much

I am actually more worried because I'm going to have to adapt to the phantom de-cloak blocking my 4k instead of my 4k blocking the phantom de-cloak, but it ultimately should not be a big deal

In terms of damage, I do not believe the Defender has a spot as a generic uber-ship when it comes to raw damage output. I would still reach for the phantom (sigma, fcs, int agent, stygium) to fill that particular need in my squad. Where the Defender comes in for me is when I need a flexible ship with no obvious counter (poor sigmas detest fat turrets) that can dominate jousts and chase down large ships by using either flechette or ion cannons

For damage Defenders, I would reach for Vessery especially since soon we'll have the sexy Advance + ATC to work with.

All in all, though, I don't see much in the errata that changes my perception of Defenders. I do think I will be more confident to engage named phantoms with them rather than relying solely on Soontir, which could lead to more list variations for me (always wanted to try Carnor...) but ultimately I believe I will stick to Flechette Delta Squadrons + Interceptor as my go to configuration.

Before the Decloak change, high-PS Phantoms had a decisive advantage. They could see where you had moved to, and had a ton of options to reposition in reaction to that information.

Unless they have an Intelligence Agent, that early advantage is gone. They can probably guess where you are moving to (seriously, every ship usually has only one or two moves that are actually good at a given point in the game, and it's not hard to predict where they're going to go in most situations). Once a Phantom decloaks, their position is going to be fixed, give or take a barrel roll.

If a Defender pilot can guess where the Phantom was going to decloak to, and what they set their dial, they have a shot to anticipate and get them in arc. That's a huge boost to them in a joust compared to what they had before.

The advantage posed by the cloak nerf isn't unique to the Defender, though.

Let's be real with ourselves. The Phantoms helped shape the meta, but they weren't alone. There were places for other ships to achieve, and the Defender wasn't counted among them. Cloak wasn't what was holding the Defender back, and I think nothing has changed in that respect.

Except for the part, that it really is. If you set yourself up right, the limits to mobility doesn't necessarily have to be bad hence why a Z or Y can still keep up with an interceptor if you plan ahead albeit it is harder, you still have access to your K-turn as well. Anyways, I'm going to say something very asinine in an attempt to make this argument personal.

Except for the part where it really isn't. You're taking a lot away from your opponent if you think all that matters is your own skill level, and I would be insulted if I played against you. What you're espousing is not altogether different from the "git gud" mentality, and that's never been an effective argument in any game. "Ship X is good if you just know how to play it" is something less than a ringing endorsement, especially when some ships are still better than others. Sadly, the Defender is more like "ship X is only good if you just know how to play it."

I'm not sure about Debris causing harm to ALL the big imp ships, hexk I think Soontir prefers Debris (for those rare times flying through a debris is tactically advantageous) for the 1/8 damage chance (instead of 4/8) and for the Focus that Soontir still gets from the stress, since using a Green Manuever through a Debris will result in 1 stress.

This does, however, hurt Whisper more, and Vader of course.

I'm actually pretty excited that the Defender won't be AS overshadowed by the Phantom, if not only because the Phantom will see less overall play time.

However, the Defender and Whisper are good against different things. I mean, getting your Defender to solo 4 generic X Wings is not easy, but Whisper could do it easily (maybe not any more).

I am also worried about the introduction of the Debris Field. The Debris are large and after considering upgrades, the Hawk and the Tie Defender will have major issues getting rid of that stress.

The first turn you K-Turn onto a Debris you will have a single stress vs most ships that will get a double stress, however, in subsequent turns there will be fewer opportunities for the T/D to get rid of that stress to restore its action economy. Most expensive ships have secondary modifiers, be it security droids, auto-thrusters, R2D2, C3-PO, fire control system etc. The Tie Defender (other than Vessery) has one action and that's it! Loosing that one action it due to stress from larger debris fields will be tough and it will happen many times.