Using your example of swarms>turrets>phantoms>swarm

You have the Phantom as an archetype, you can't tell me all swarm ships are the same. The tie fighter is better than the z95 for it. An outer rim smuggler or blaster turret hawk isn't the same as Han or chiraneu. There are definitely tiers. So ships and combos are better than others.

True, the Tie Fighter is imo a far superior swarm ship (Better dial, far better action bar) but does that make the Z-95 low tier? **** no. It's a solid little bastard of a ship and a very potent mini-swarm

So, is it the ship that's lower tier or the build that's lower tier?

the distinction matters quite a bit

Now true, there will always be superior ships in a straight one to one comparison just as there will be head slappingly stupid builds (naked rebel operatives), but taken as a whole many Squadrons seem surprisingly even in strength, As ships fluctuate depending on how they interact with one another, both allies and enemies, attempts to fix them to set "tiers" become more and more difficult.

TIE swarms can now barrel roll (or take other actions as appropriate) in reaction to a Phantom's decloak. This is HUGE. Like, I'm still trying to conceptualize how huge this is.

So, TIE swarms now have a stronger chance against Phantoms and will (theoretically) be seen more. This is especially true as the novelty of the Decimators wear off and longtime Imperial players return to their roots.

And as we know, turrets are allergic to 7-8 TIE Fighters across the table from them.

Using your example of swarms>turrets>phantoms>swarm

You have the Phantom as an archetype, you can't tell me all swarm ships are the same. The tie fighter is better than the z95 for it. An outer rim smuggler or blaster turret hawk isn't the same as Han or chiraneu. There are definitely tiers. So ships and combos are better than others.

True, the Tie Fighter is imo a far superior swarm ship (Better dial, far better action bar) but does that make the Z-95 low tier? **** no. It's a solid little bastard of a ship and a very potent mini-swarm

So, is it the ship that's lower tier or the build that's lower tier?

the distinction matters quite a bit

Now true, there will always be superior ships in a straight one to one comparison just as there will be head slappingly stupid builds (naked rebel operatives), but taken as a whole many Squadrons seem surprisingly even in strength, As ships fluctuate depending on how they interact with one another, both allies and enemies, attempts to fix them to set "tiers" become more and more difficult.

Lower tier doesn't mean garbage except for naked rebel ops and spice runners. You can always find a job for its ship and anytime the dice roll good that ship is pulling it's weight. But generally if you said OK I want to run a 7 or 8 ship swarm what ship do you think would do the best? I'd say tie fighter.

If you said OK I want to run 3 crazy hard to get arc dodgers what ships would give you the best chance? Probably interceptors and phantoms.

If you said OK I want a big base turret ship to punch through autoceptors and phantoms you'd probably say chiraneu at ps10 or with vader.

I think there ship tiers and build tiers.

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

...because the list won worlds a few months ago and still continues to do work at local tournies.

....that's our Han for you, he's such a giver.

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

The biggest mistake in this analysis is in assuming that Han and Whisper are competing with one another, as if they're on opposite ends of a teeter-totter--pushing down on one will make the other one rise.

But Han and Whisper are linked; the Falcon is popular in part because it's an obvious, accessible hard counter to the Phantom. Han makes a lot of sense in an environment where you otherwise need to anticipate as many as 45 possible landing locations for a highly offensive ship, and he makes even more sense in an environment where two-ship lists win a plurality of major tournaments.

But because the Phantom as a source of stress in the metagame, nerfing it reduces one of the forces buoying the Falcon. It's a terribly inefficient way to spend your points, honestly, and one with a number of soft counters. (Warthogs are a potent new one, and it's also very vulnerable to any kind of swarm, and the Falcon doesn't like ordnance very much either.)

And that's not even talking about the impact of Autothrusters. So if I were in the position of making major decisions about the X-wing game, I would be waiting to see what impact Wave 6 and the Phantom change had on the game before I thought about any changes to turret primary weapons.

The Pheaver got there not just by defeating Phantoms...but everything else as well. For FFG to nerf Phantoms, but not the thing that beats Phantoms(and everything else along the way)...is a bit odd.

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

The biggest mistake in this analysis is in assuming that Han and Whisper are competing with one another, as if they're on opposite ends of a teeter-totter--pushing down on one will make the other one rise.

But Han and Whisper are linked; the Falcon is popular in part because it's an obvious, accessible hard counter to the Phantom. Han makes a lot of sense in an environment where you otherwise need to anticipate as many as 45 possible landing locations for a highly offensive ship, and he makes even more sense in an environment where two-ship lists win a plurality of major tournaments.

But because the Phantom as a source of stress in the metagame, nerfing it reduces one of the forces buoying the Falcon. It's a terribly inefficient way to spend your points, honestly, and one with a number of soft counters. (Warthogs are a potent new one, and it's also very vulnerable to any kind of swarm, and the Falcon doesn't like ordnance very much either.)

And that's not even talking about the impact of Autothrusters. So if I were in the position of making major decisions about the X-wing game, I would be waiting to see what impact Wave 6 and the Phantom change had on the game before I thought about any changes to turret primary weapons.

The Pheaver got there not just by defeating Phantoms...but everything else as well. For FFG to nerf Phantoms, but not the thing that beats Phantoms(and everything else along the way)...is a bit odd.

Paul has been public and open about the fact that his Falcon list was designed to beat other defensive Falcon lists in a timed format. It was already likely to beat Phantom-centered lists, due to the turret primary, and was a good bet against small lists in general.

In a metagame that features more varied lists, and typically larger ones, it won't fare nearly as well. And since both the Phantom change and the introduction of Autothrusters are likely to diversify the metagame, the Fat Falcon is likely to be less common and less impressive when it does show up.

Right, but it's ridiculously easy to counter. It only has a small handfull of offensive dice, which if Han turtles aren't really modified. It shouldn't be this big bad boogieman, because all you need is a decent offense, and it crumples like wet cardboard.

Plus of course, the vast majority of turret-equipped ships (YT's, Decimators, lesser extent Y-Wings) not only have low agility, but have a LOT of hull. That means a LOT of potentially crippling Critical Hits. Something which should now be becoming more common with the emergence of the Mangler Cannon and Calculation cards...

I've always been more fly casual. if you were anti scrub and found falcons getting weaker and interceptors getting stronger, maybe you'd be flying the baron.

Nah, it looks like you jumped on the falcon wagon.

There are tiered ships, but they are constantly being rebalanced.

I love my turret Y-wings, ALWAYS HAVE. But there is a beauty in flying interceptor dogfight. The TIE Advanced previously sucked - I proxied the X1 and ATC and love the hell out of it.

The defender... Vessery in that X1 list is great!

HWK? Ok so Rebel is pretty weak I think, but scum is AMAZING.

Also, really can't say ships are weak so much as pilots are.

Fells Wrath, Generic x-wings, etc etc.

The meta defines a lot of choices, from upgrade cards to what pilots fielded. But there are currently not too many losers.

I don't really think the falcon needs a nerf. So much as C3PO needs an errata not allowing it to guess 0.

Turrets are here to stay, and they have their place. They are expensive and massed fire takes them down. Autothrusters just means that tinterceptors don't immediately explode upon entering range.

If I'm on any wagon it's the what do I think is going to win this tournament wagon. Last tournament it was 3 autoceptors, did it's job and had a 97 point initiative bid against fels and whispers so I could move last and the auto thrusters did exactly what I thought they would do against the turrets. Just had to spread my ships around so a crazy k turn wouldn't catch all 3.

The week before that it was phantom hunter luke, jake, and 3 z's.

Before that it was, chewie and leebo. I run what I feel like is going to beat the other lists there.

I like how you're trying to be condescending and that flying a falcon is a bad thing.

Flying the Falcon isn't a bad thing. Flying a falcon just because it's the ship to fly is a bad thing.

Flying the falcon and complaining about interceptors? That is just funny.

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

The biggest mistake in this analysis is in assuming that Han and Whisper are competing with one another, as if they're on opposite ends of a teeter-totter--pushing down on one will make the other one rise.

But Han and Whisper are linked; the Falcon is popular in part because it's an obvious, accessible hard counter to the Phantom. Han makes a lot of sense in an environment where you otherwise need to anticipate as many as 45 possible landing locations for a highly offensive ship, and he makes even more sense in an environment where two-ship lists win a plurality of major tournaments.

But because the Phantom as a source of stress in the metagame, nerfing it reduces one of the forces buoying the Falcon. It's a terribly inefficient way to spend your points, honestly, and one with a number of soft counters. (Warthogs are a potent new one, and it's also very vulnerable to any kind of swarm, and the Falcon doesn't like ordnance very much either.)

And that's not even talking about the impact of Autothrusters. So if I were in the position of making major decisions about the X-wing game, I would be waiting to see what impact Wave 6 and the Phantom change had on the game before I thought about any changes to turret primary weapons.

The Pheaver got there not just by defeating Phantoms...but everything else as well. For FFG to nerf Phantoms, but not the thing that beats Phantoms(and everything else along the way)...is a bit odd.

It's also worth pointing out that Paul has said he was rooting for his eventual finals opponent (Morgan's Phantom+Mini Swarm) to beat a full swarm in the semifinals, because he felt he had a significantly worse match up against the full swarm.

I've always been more fly casual. if you were anti scrub and found falcons getting weaker and interceptors getting stronger, maybe you'd be flying the baron.

Nah, it looks like you jumped on the falcon wagon.

There are tiered ships, but they are constantly being rebalanced.

I love my turret Y-wings, ALWAYS HAVE. But there is a beauty in flying interceptor dogfight. The TIE Advanced previously sucked - I proxied the X1 and ATC and love the hell out of it.

The defender... Vessery in that X1 list is great!

HWK? Ok so Rebel is pretty weak I think, but scum is AMAZING.

Also, really can't say ships are weak so much as pilots are.

Fells Wrath, Generic x-wings, etc etc.

The meta defines a lot of choices, from upgrade cards to what pilots fielded. But there are currently not too many losers.

I don't really think the falcon needs a nerf. So much as C3PO needs an errata not allowing it to guess 0.

Turrets are here to stay, and they have their place. They are expensive and massed fire takes them down. Autothrusters just means that tinterceptors don't immediately explode upon entering range.

If I'm on any wagon it's the what do I think is going to win this tournament wagon. Last tournament it was 3 autoceptors, did it's job and had a 97 point initiative bid against fels and whispers so I could move last and the auto thrusters did exactly what I thought they would do against the turrets. Just had to spread my ships around so a crazy k turn wouldn't catch all 3.

The week before that it was phantom hunter luke, jake, and 3 z's.

Before that it was, chewie and leebo. I run what I feel like is going to beat the other lists there.

I like how you're trying to be condescending and that flying a falcon is a bad thing.

Flying the Falcon isn't a bad thing. Flying a falcon just because it's the ship to fly is a bad thing.

Flying the falcon and complaining about interceptors? That is just funny.

I've been doing that where again?

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

...because the list won worlds a few months ago and still continues to do work at local tournies.

If every list is a Fat Falcon, a Fat Falcon will always win.

If half the lists are Fat Falcons, the Fat Falcon is in with a very good chance of winning because it put its name in the pot so many times.

A Fat Falcon won Worlds but a huge number of Fat Falcons did not. Paul Heaver won Worlds, and he did it with a Fat Falcon kitted out to kill other Fat Falcons.

There are a lot of successful Fat Falcons and there are a lot of Fail Falcons, because there are a lot of Fat Falcons.

Using your example of swarms>turrets>phantoms>swarm

You have the Phantom as an archetype, you can't tell me all swarm ships are the same. The tie fighter is better than the z95 for it. An outer rim smuggler or blaster turret hawk isn't the same as Han or chiraneu. There are definitely tiers. So ships and combos are better than others.

True, the Tie Fighter is imo a far superior swarm ship (Better dial, far better action bar) but does that make the Z-95 low tier? **** no. It's a solid little bastard of a ship and a very potent mini-swarm

So, is it the ship that's lower tier or the build that's lower tier?

the distinction matters quite a bit

Now true, there will always be superior ships in a straight one to one comparison just as there will be head slappingly stupid builds (naked rebel operatives), but taken as a whole many Squadrons seem surprisingly even in strength, As ships fluctuate depending on how they interact with one another, both allies and enemies, attempts to fix them to set "tiers" become more and more difficult.

Lower tier doesn't mean garbage except for naked rebel ops and spice runners. You can always find a job for its ship and anytime the dice roll good that ship is pulling it's weight. But generally if you said OK I want to run a 7 or 8 ship swarm what ship do you think would do the best? I'd say tie fighter.

If you said OK I want to run 3 crazy hard to get arc dodgers what ships would give you the best chance? Probably interceptors and phantoms.

If you said OK I want a big base turret ship to punch through autoceptors and phantoms you'd probably say chiraneu at ps10 or with vader.

I think there ship tiers and build tiers.

ah, fair enough. There are definitely ships that fill specific roles more effectively than others

Definitely agreed on the swarm king being the fighter and the arc dodger royalty being interceptors and phantoms, and of course the decivader being the go to turret against them

But it is also important to note that many ends can be achieved through several different means.

For example, Wave 5's phantom craze led to nothing but bloody turrets for ages because people believed them to be otherwise unbeatable. Now I couldn't stomach playing turrets, so I had to come up with another phantom counter in the V.I, R3-A2, and Engine Luke. Others found solace through other means of control, such as panic attack.

Other, less popular ships also have some incredible capabilities that can't be matched by others in their faction. The humble A-wing, for example, I've found to be unparallelled as a filler (one of) ship while the Z-95's cheapness and stats made it a much more effective mini-swarm. I've found the Tie Defender to be the master of the joust after I discovered for myself how fun control cannons are

Once one cracks open the variety of roles that can be filled, one is open to a huge variety of ships that each preform more effectively in a specific capability than the other. Wave 6 Y-wings are crazy powerful dominators of the joust with title ICTs while Tactician B-wings don't do it as well but instead help counter PTL or action dependent ships by piling on stress and damage simultaneously, which leads them to being very effective against fatties and arc-dodgers at the same time.

I don't think there's a ship out there that couldn't be considered as "best" in a given role (pilots are a different story...) especially considering that factions are limited in which ships they can take relative to the entire X-wing lineup, so the idea of tiers holds less value for me personally because there are so many possibilities to consider.

As such, I just try to look at it as a Meta and adjust to it accordingly. I find tier systems to be unduly limiting, but having a common foe to inspire me has made the process of building lists very enjoyable

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

...because the list won worlds a few months ago and still continues to do work at local tournies.

If every list is a Fat Falcon, a Fat Falcon will always win.

If half the lists are Fat Falcons, the Fat Falcon is in with a very good chance of winning because it put its name in the pot so many times.

A Fat Falcon won Worlds but a huge number of Fat Falcons did not. Paul Heaver won Worlds.

There are a lot of successful Fat Falcons and there are a lot of Fail Falcons, because there are a lot of Fat Falcons.

Most falcons were kitted out with gunner or luke to kill phantoms. I believe there were only 2 there at world's that had r2d2 and c3p0 which does better against other falcons than phantoms.

Nope! No fix needed.

Sorry that your favorite ship/list is not all powerful.

Sorry that XWM is not just the way YOU want it.

Sorry... but the only "fix" I would want is not going to happen, and that would be to retroactively "fix" the YT-1300 and by that, I mean the named pilots and exactly what the Millennium Falcon title gets you (should have been the all the extra upgrades that the ORS doesn't have-not have them as better stats on the pilot card)

SImple/Lazy turret fix: Big ships can only boost 1 FORWARD.

Opinions?

I don't think turrets need a fix. they just got nerfed some with autothrusters, and that was a good move (as is the phantom adjustment). If turrets were really the issue, we'd see decimators and dash dominating right along with han, but we don't.

I think all the turret angst should really be termed fat Han with 3PO angst. that is the only turret you see at the top of the heap.

I say wait and see. Always in motion is the future. Let's see what effect these changes have. I think we will see more ships in a typical squad as high PS, while desirable, will not be as critical as it was. I predict less 2 ship lists and more 4 or more ship lists, and that is where big turreted ships really start to feel the pain.

If I have a concern about the future (I'm not sure I do) it might be that the swarm might be too powerful now, but time will tell.

I stopped reading this thread in the beginning, so I'm sorry if I duplicate a point.

The great thing about the Phantom FAQ errata is that it brings list diversity back. Phantom's can still bring VI to the fight and Whisper can still bring the ACD for 4/4 shenanigans, but there's less need now to have a PS 9/10 Phantom counter in your list now. That opens up a ton of options.

Even before the Phantom errata, S&V added a bunch of options to mix up the meta and I'm glad for that. I've been running a list centered around Ten Nunb and Jake Farrell to great success (4-1). Who would have thought that would have been a viable list just a month or so ago.

Oh, and the list I lost to was 4 Scum Y wings. If anything in the meta scares me, it's that... who would have thought.

All in all, my excitement for X-Wing is renewed and I'm pleased with the direction the designers are taking it.

A simple turret fix: For ships with 360 degree primary weapons. Only gain +1 attack dice for range 1 if the enemy is in your primary firing arc. That forces people to actually fly their turret ships, which right now even if you get behind them at range 1 they can still add+1 dice, so they don't worry about it. It makes sense that they follow what other ships are forced to follow too.

I don't think turrets need a fix. they just got nerfed some with autothrusters, and that was a good move (as is the phantom adjustment). If turrets were really the issue, we'd see decimators and dash dominating right along with han, but we don't.

Aiyaahhhh~~~~

this is probably just ******* semantics (so apologies beforehand ) but Autothrusters don't nerf turrets, they buff Interceptors

The distinction is huge, because it imo show how horribly lazy the turret rule was by proving how horribly it ****** over an entire ship type by casually ignoring maneuvering in general (again, not overpowered, just a symptom of imo bad game design)

The other ships that can take it are the A-wing (not really, though, they're expensive for their 2 dice offense as is and are already quite defensively capable) the Starviper and the Aggressor. The two scum ships seem to be stated with thrusters in mind (especially the hull heavy, crit vulnerable Vipers) so I couldn't call if a buff or nerf on them (especially because they were released with the upgrade, and the viper is even packaged with the bloody thing )

In terms of a competitive setting, auto-thrusters don't make fat han or any of the powerful turrets any worse, they just encourage a wider variety of lists by bringing Interceptors out of their hidey hole and giving us two new ships to work with

A better turret 'fix', leave everything as is and see how the meta develops with a third faction, auto thrusters, and the phantom 'nerf'

A better turret 'fix', leave everything as is and see how the meta develops with a third faction, auto thrusters, and the phantom 'nerf'

You may be right about this. But getting a +1 for 360 range one. Turrets are the only ships that get that. I think forcing them to fly and keep enemies in Primary Arc's just like every other ship in the game, is something that would make sense.

SImple/Lazy turret fix: Big ships can only boost 1 FORWARD.

Opinions?

Why would you do that to the poor Lambda?

SImple/Lazy turret fix: Big ships can only boost 1 FORWARD.

Opinions?

Why would you do that to the poor Lambda?

Seriously. Think of the space cows!

Oh, and the Agressor. The Agressor really needs boost.

SImple/Lazy turret fix: Big ships can only boost 1 FORWARD.

Opinions?

Why would you do that to the poor Lambda?

Seriously. Think of the space cows!

Oh, and the Agressor. The Agressor really needs boost.

The Aggressor came with Boost already built in.

EDIT: I can't read

Yeah but with this change would only be able to boost straight forward.