If you want to see turreted ships drop, all you have to do is introduce partial points into competitive play.

This is another important point. Expensive ships have a MoV advantage over lots of small ones. TIE swarm down to two fighters? Worth all the dead fighters. Falcon one one hit point? Worth nothing.

Maybe you should as well the phantom mini swarm was one of the most popular builds. I'm sorry are you still sore about utterly failing to comprehend how OP the fat falcon has been to the game and the meta.

I don't think he's the sore one here.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

Seriously?

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still popular

You should probably take a second look at List Juggler yourself.

Maybe you should as well the phantom mini swarm was one of the most popular builds. I'm sorry are you still sore about utterly failing to comprehend how OP the fat falcon has been to the game and the meta. Or are you stil trying to convince people the falcon isn't any stronger then the old Han shoots first build and the fat falcon is just more options?

Oh, you're that person. I'm genuinely sorry I engaged with you.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

Seriously?

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still popular

You should probably take a second look at List Juggler yourself.

Maybe you should as well the phantom mini swarm was one of the most popular builds. I'm sorry are you still sore about utterly failing to comprehend how OP the fat falcon has been to the game and the meta. Or are you stil trying to convince people the falcon isn't any stronger then the old Han shoots first build and the fat falcon is just more options?

You still see turret lists on top of tournaments, but it's not the monotonous Fat han vs Phantom Miniswarm we saw on worlds. It's far from that really, and turrets, especially Han only got to the top of the meta BECAUSE of Phantoms, not the other way round. The Phantom was the ship you needed to counter. There were a few possibilities but if you didn't have a hard counter, you lost! That's different with a fat Han list. There are lots of lists that can reliably beat it, it was never OP like the Phantom, just a little boring to play and unfortunately the best counter to the Phantom.

The Phantom nerf will induce less hard counters to it required, so more low skill pilots in competitive meta, that leads to less 2-ship turret lists automatically as they are weak to swarm type builds inherently. So what TIE Pilot said earlier is absolutely true. The Phantom nerf is the solution against a turret heavy meta as well!

You still see turret lists on top of tournaments, but it's not the monotonous Fat han vs Phantom Miniswarm we saw on worlds. It's far from that really, and turrets, especially Han only got to the top of the meta BECAUSE of Phantoms, not the other way round. The Phantom was the ship you needed to counter. There were a few possibilities but if you didn't have a hard counter, you lost! That's different with a fat Han list. There are lots of lists that can reliably beat it, it was never OP like the Phantom, just a little boring to play and unfortunately the best counter to the Phantom.

I see this argument a lot but I think it really underestimates the value of a handful of other cards that came out at the same time as the phantom (or just before) to help the falcon, especially, and other large base turrets as a whole:

• C3PO and R2D2 -- both cards that make a resilient ship even more resilient and combining well with the already effective EU and MF to either limit shots or prevent low ATT ships from getting something through unless they combined fire (which, again EU helps with).
• Predator -- a card that is both independent of action and helpful against swarms.
• Z-95s -- cheap efficient filler that could even be taken up to PS4 and still fit 3 of them in several builds.

The specific upgrades above (not the Z-95) added that help the falcon are all actionless upgrades. Those are very helpful against the swarm.

With the release of Wave 5, we saw the addition of an HLC turret and Leebo looks like the star of that release (surprisingly not Dash) is looking to be excellent pairing for Chewie. On the other side, the Decimator has paired nice with the phantom (though it's going to be interesting to see if it sticks around on its own as effectively, especially with Autothrusters and Manglers).

Add to all the the change in the MOV system and you have a lot more reasons than simply "the Phantom" that helped Falcons move up in the competitive scene.

Hopefully autothrusters will temper that some and I agree that there are more builds that can do well against the large base turrets, but there's still plenty that made them very good without being the key counter to the phantom.

I agree he phantom was a stronger ship by itself however the reason the fat falcon continues to do well is because of the MOV rules and the fact it actually mitigates damage well while being consistant high damage. But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Because the x1 is also "OP" or because it's somehow some sort of silver bullet?

Having flown VaderX1ATC, my friends believe he is well and truly OP...

But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Look at what's won Store Championships. There are a lot of lists that are winning that aren't Fat Hans. Anything that wins is sure to face off vs. Fat Hans. BBBBZ has won a lot. Tarn Nation is doing well. Double IG-88's are winning. Just look at List Juggler. You can sort it by Store Championships only. Also know that it's half Wave 5 and half Wave 6.

For anyone curious, there is a website that uses tournament data to rank squads based on their performance, which you can filter based on a time frame and faction.

http://xwing.macker.co/

If you filter based on the release date of Wave 6, so only results from the past 5 weeks, Heaver Han (R2-D2) is 4th overall, behind BBBZ (1st) Super Dash + Corran and Dual IG-88s.

I think we need to remeber that there is a huge premium paid for the turret capability in points. these ships are costing 40 to 50 points. and they are throwing 3 red dice. 50 points of xwing or bwing throws twice that number. Points cost is the nerf, if you want to think of it like that.

Doesn't matter much when its skill ceiling is so low (the dial + turret) and its upgrades are so good.

You still need to kill the **** thing and it completely dictates your strategy..

I agree he phantom was a stronger ship by itself however the reason the fat falcon continues to do well is because of the MOV rules and the fact it actually mitigates damage well while being consistant high damage. But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Because the x1 is also "OP" or because it's somehow some sort of silver bullet?

I agree he phantom was a stronger ship by itself however the reason the fat falcon continues to do well is because of the MOV rules and the fact it actually mitigates damage well while being consistant high damage. But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Because the x1 is also "OP" or because it's somehow some sort of silver bullet?

No because 5 hull on a 3evade platform that puts out 8-12 red dice plus 4 crits each turn eats turrets for breakfast. The durability alone makes the adv a 2+ turn ship to kill with focus Fire and 4 garaunteed crits a turn nueters turrets. However advanced will have issues against arc Dodgers so I fully expect mix lists of fel and advances or whisper and advamces to be more popular.

Unless you're Vader...

Still not a lot of green on that dial if he pulls the PTL thing, but I guess he's got a high enough PS to make it work.

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

I've been playing the same basic list archetype (4x interceptors, Bomber) since the beginning, and I've yet to lose to Fat Han, especially since now people are playing just him and Corran Horn. I don't understand why this is a thing.

Fat Han is a very consistent list, and thus the complaints. 'Consistent' does not mean 'completely invincible, will always table anything' - it means it has more good matches than bad ones, and it's bad matches aren't so bad that they can't be mitigated by hot dice and/or slick piloting.

Someone mentioned fighting games earlier, so I'll use this example: Zero/Vergil is an extremely consistent shell in UMvC2, for a variety of reasons. There is still a considerable difference between good and bad Vergil or Zero players, those characters are not the be-al end-all of the game, and the EVO crushing team used by the best player in the world doesn't even include them - but if you're interested in posting winnings by playing the odds, it would be foolish not to learn & play what is widely recognized as the best shell in the game.

Fat Han is like that. I mostly agree with people who feel it is a bit too strong/consistent, but on the other, a game this complex is ultimately going to have builds that bubble to the top and are more consistent than others. I think C-3P0 probably needs a re-wording (and the game probably needed that more than it needed ab adjustment to the cloaking mechanics, which were also too strong but at least tied to piloting skill) - and we'll probably get it after FFG feels the card is done boosting Tantive IV sales - but one should recognize that when that day comes, something else is just going to fill Fat Han's shoes to become the consistent large turreted hull list (my money would be on something involving Dash, or maybe one of the Decimator control lists).

Still not a lot of green on that dial if he pulls the PTL thing, but I guess he's got a high enough PS to make it work.

Vader doesn't need Push the Limit. Slap an Engine Upgrade, and you have an Advanced that is as slippery as an Interceptor, without the stress. While the Advanced won't be a great arc dodger, Vader is still one of the best.

But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Look at what's won Store Championships. There are a lot of lists that are winning that aren't Fat Hans. Anything that wins is sure to face off vs. Fat Hans. BBBBZ has won a lot. Tarn Nation is doing well. Double IG-88's are winning. Just look at List Juggler. You can sort it by Store Championships only. Also know that it's half Wave 5 and half Wave 6.

Warthogs have had some success, some Scyks are doing well, and even Firesprays and Turret HWKs can win something.

You also still have 7 Swarms and miniswarms +X that can do well against Falcons. C-3PO mitigates one damage, and if i see another imperial player complain about what Z-95 does for Fat han i am gonne puke on my Keyboard. you have had 12 point excellent ships forever and now Fat Han is OP because Rebels have something that's not even quite as good for the same price? Come on you can't be serious! Nobody doubts its a good filler ship and as we saw 8 Z-95 can win a tournament, but to complain about them is just the pinnacle of hipocrisy!

You still have some turret lists doing well. Chewbo (yes i have the patent on that name, look it up!), Fat Dash and Fat Han as well as Phantom/Decimator also continue to do well, but i don't see the problem. It's not monotonous and you just can't say that Fat Han or even turrets dominate the meta anymore, sorry it's just not like that anymore.

But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons? It's still the most op list since wave 4 and will continue to be until the advanced fix is released.

Look at what's won Store Championships. There are a lot of lists that are winning that aren't Fat Hans. Anything that wins is sure to face off vs. Fat Hans. BBBBZ has won a lot. Tarn Nation is doing well. Double IG-88's are winning. Just look at List Juggler. You can sort it by Store Championships only. Also know that it's half Wave 5 and half Wave 6.

Exactly, those and a lot of other lists are winning SCs.

Warthogs have had some success, some Scyks are doing well, and even Firesprays and Turret HWKs can win something.

You also still have 7 Swarms and miniswarms +X that can do well against Falcons. C-3PO mitigates one damage, and if i see another imperial player complain about what Z-95 does for Fat han i am gonne puke on my Keyboard. you have had 12 point excellent ships forever and now Fat Han is OP because Rebels have something that's not even quite as good for the same price? Come on you can't be serious! Nobody doubts its a good filler ship and as we saw 8 Z-95 can win a tournament, but to complain about them is just the pinnacle of hipocrisy!

You still have some turret lists doing well. Chewbo (yes i have the patent on that name, look it up!), Fat Dash and Fat Han as well as Phantom/Decimator also continue to do well, but i don't see the problem. It's not monotonous and you just can't say that Fat Han or even turrets dominate the meta anymore, sorry it's just not like that anymore.

In fairness, looking at only the #1 placement doesn't tell the whole story. Fat Han was still a very dominant list, and is over represented in the top 8.

On that same token...

But please do tell what lists have reliably killed fat Falcons?

Any list with a large number of guns has a good match-up against Fat Han. Accompanying Zs do improve Han's consistency here, but mostly by forcing opponents into situations where they can make the wrong decision ('wrong decision' is context-sensitive depending on what is happening on the board, but it's easier to enter into a bad gambit when your opponent has a more complex board position).

As good as C-3P0 is, Han is still only tossing 3 red dice a turn. That guaranteed evade, while great, will not often make-up for the Falcon having 2:1 or worse odds when trading shots, and this is what tournament results have generally born out. When Falcon lists do manage to prevail against lists with guns, guns and more guns, it's usually down to a critical turn where the Falcon player out flew their opponent... and I think that's the way it ought to be.

If i look at the current meta, i can't see where Fat han would be overrrepresented. There are still turret lists. Most that did well recently seem to be Decimator/Whisper and Chewbo. There are not even that many Fat hans left in tournaments.

Turrets in general are not too strong, and they never were not even 6 Months ago!

NOBODY stopped you from taking a 7 Tie swarm (or BBBBZ...) and stomping Fat Han even when it won worlds. With predator/C3PO it stood a chance, but i have seen Tie Swarms kill a Falcon in 2 turns, and then mop up the Z-95 while losing only 1-2 ships often enough! He is outgunned and can not win the damage race against such lists.

What DID stop you from taking a Tie swarm or BBBBZ however was the named Phantoms with ACD. Thats where the problem was, and that's why they needed to fix Phantoms, not turrets!

My compliments to FFG that they saw this correctly and took the right measures!

If i look at the current meta, i can't see where Fat han would be overrrepresented. There are still turret lists. Most that did well recently seem to be Decimator/Whisper and Chewbo. There are not even that many Fat hans left in tournaments.

Turrets in general are not too strong, and they never were not even 6 Months ago!

NOBODY stopped you from taking a 7 Tie swarm (or BBBBZ...) and stomping Fat Han even when it won worlds. With predator/C3PO it stood a chance, but i have seen Tie Swarms kill a Falcon in 2 turns, and then mop up the Z-95 while losing only 1-2 ships often enough! He is outgunned and can not win the damage race against such lists.

What DID stop you from taking a Tie swarm or BBBBZ however was the named Phantoms with ACD. Thats where the problem was, and that's why they needed to fix Phantoms, not turrets!

My compliments to FFG that they saw this correctly and took the right measures!

If the ability to put red dice on the table regardless of your angle was 'not too strong', I doubt the finals would've been as packed with Falcons as it was. Guns, guns, guns have a good match-up against falcon lists, but it's not so good that it hurts their overall consistency.

If you don't think the Falcon lists are consistent against a number of threats, I'm not sure what to tell you. There's a good reason that great players picked it up, and it wasn't all down to the Phantoms (don't take my word for it - Heaver noted on multiple occasions that the majority of lists he had to fight through were mixed rebel groups and/or other Falcon lists. The Phantom lists were hardly even present).