Aye, in which case: lol@Decimators.

The bed is relatively made, design-wise; for turret ships.

Which is a shame.

If anyone can balance it it is the devs, they have proven many times to be competent at what they do. Imho.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

My fix to turrets: make them range 1-2 only. Just like other turret upgrades (blaster, ion cannon).

this way a turret player actually has to pay attention to firing arcs / maneuvering.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

A Soontir Howl swarm lost to a Heaver-type Fat Han in the top 4 of a 33-player Store Championship I attended.

Which shows that X-wing isn't a true Rock, Paper, Scissors game. Though, the Swarm did make it to the top 4, right?

Turrets just got 2 pretty big nerfs in Auto-thrusters and now the slight weakening of their main prey item, the Phantom.

The Phantom will no longer be an auto-win match up against the main predator of the Fat Turret, which was the Swarm. With the old Phantom being such an oppressive force against swarms, its perceived reduced presence should increase the number of Swarm lists seeing play, which will adversely affect the turrets. The other arc-dodger in the format, Soontir, actually dislikes swarms because they are able to crowd his maneuver lanes and block his movements, which was almost impossible to do against the Phantom.

My prediction for what the meta looks like with the change is

Slightly less Phantoms

Slightly more Soontir

Slightly more Swarms

Slightly less Fat Turrets

Slightly more Super Dash

Slightly more PS 10 and stress meta to counter Soontir and Dash

Slightly more Scum lists that take advantage of an open metagame

I think these very slight changes will result in the somewhat balanced metagame we've all been looking for after playing the Phantom/Fat Han/Fat Chiraneau metagame for so long.

Swarm wasn't struggling just because of phantoms, though- Margin of Victory is... not terribly friendly to certain swarm builds, as I understand

Let's not forget with Debris now an option, the flying lanes will be a bit more difficult for large base ships. Unless you are Dash, of course.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

half points would still give the large ships an advantage over the small ones, just slightly less so. They would need to go with a pure percentage system to remove the arbitrary advantage that large ships get from MOV scoring. It's not that complicated, if you deal 8 damage to a 13 HP 62 point falcon, you score 38 MOV points (8/13 x 62, rounded to the nearest integer) .

I honestly had not considered the huge advantage fat turrets still get from MOV scoring, Swarms might not be able to overcome this even with an improved Phantom match-up.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

half points would still give the large ships an advantage over the small ones, just slightly less so. They would need to go with a pure percentage system to remove the arbitrary advantage that large ships get from MOV scoring. It's not that complicated, if you deal 8 damage to a 13 HP 62 point falcon, you score 38 MOV points (8/13 x 62, rounded to the nearest integer) .

I honestly had not considered the huge advantage fat turrets still get from MOV scoring, Swarms might not be able to overcome this even with an improved Phantom match-up.

Eh, percentage based MOV could shake a lot of things up. Half MoV would still cause some shifts (Chewbacca and R2-D2 become slightly but noticeably better), but it'd be a lot easier to playtest. Also, percentage based MOV would probably require too much math, and it'd be harder to determine who is currently in the lead if that happened.

Let's not forget with Debris now an option, the flying lanes will be a bit more difficult for large base ships. Unless you are Dash, of course.

Debris are much better for turrets, since they still get to shoot and tend not to rely on actions as much (3PO, predator, R2d2). I've won several games against turrets by blocking them onto rocks and then keeping them there a couple of turns. That won't be possible with debris, I mean, sure they'll be stuck, but they'll still be shooting.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

half points would still give the large ships an advantage over the small ones, just slightly less so. They would need to go with a pure percentage system to remove the arbitrary advantage that large ships get from MOV scoring. It's not that complicated, if you deal 8 damage to a 13 HP 62 point falcon, you score 38 MOV points (8/13 x 62, rounded to the nearest integer) .

I honestly had not considered the huge advantage fat turrets still get from MOV scoring, Swarms might not be able to overcome this even with an improved Phantom match-up.

Eh, percentage based MOV could shake a lot of things up. Half MoV would still cause some shifts (Chewbacca and R2-D2 become slightly but noticeably better), but it'd be a lot easier to playtest. Also, percentage based MOV would probably require too much math, and it'd be harder to determine who is currently in the lead if that happened.

It's really not that much math of you're using a calculator. [Damage dealt] divided by [Hull+Shields] multiplied by [ship's total points cost], and then add the results for each ship together to get MOV.

I feel like having a fair tournament scoring system that doesn't arbitrarily favor 60 point tanks is worth the steep cost ~30 seconds of basic arithmetic at the end of each round.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

half points would still give the large ships an advantage over the small ones, just slightly less so. They would need to go with a pure percentage system to remove the arbitrary advantage that large ships get from MOV scoring. It's not that complicated, if you deal 8 damage to a 13 HP 62 point falcon, you score 38 MOV points (8/13 x 62, rounded to the nearest integer) .

I honestly had not considered the huge advantage fat turrets still get from MOV scoring, Swarms might not be able to overcome this even with an improved Phantom match-up.

The other problem with the current system is that because of the way that MOV tends to work out, swarms are more likely to face swarms and fat turrets are more likely to face fat turrets during the swiss rounds.

Let's see how things go with the current meta before saying anything is OP?

Interceptors by the way are anything but OP. Sure, they can dodge a lot. Sure autothrusters mitigate range 3 and being out of arc but OMG if you fly that falcon well you can just keep them in arc?? who'da thunk it.

...

You know I find it Ironic when people say let's see how things go with the current meta. I'm strongly opposed to the current to the phantom nerf as it absolutely **** echo, one of my favorite pilots. This nerf came just as the whole meta got shaken up by the arrival of scum and villany. IG 88 WRECKS turret builds. we were seeing a whole slew of non turret based phantom counters, turret counters, an other insanely cool builds arrive. Yet that's when they decide to nerf something the game had just adapted to and take it from being good to useless in the stroke of a pen.

Yeah I'm hoping they switch MoV to give half points for ships that are missing half or more of their hull/shields. Was listening to Nova Squadron Radio and MajorJuggler was saying those large turret ships have a 13-14 pt. MoV advantage just for showing up due to the current 'all or nothing' rules.

half points would still give the large ships an advantage over the small ones, just slightly less so. They would need to go with a pure percentage system to remove the arbitrary advantage that large ships get from MOV scoring. It's not that complicated, if you deal 8 damage to a 13 HP 62 point falcon, you score 38 MOV points (8/13 x 62, rounded to the nearest integer) .

I honestly had not considered the huge advantage fat turrets still get from MOV scoring, Swarms might not be able to overcome this even with an improved Phantom match-up.

Eh, percentage based MOV could shake a lot of things up. Half MoV would still cause some shifts (Chewbacca and R2-D2 become slightly but noticeably better), but it'd be a lot easier to playtest. Also, percentage based MOV would probably require too much math, and it'd be harder to determine who is currently in the lead if that happened.

It's really not that much math of you're using a calculator. [Damage dealt] divided by [Hull+Shields] multiplied by [ship's total points cost], and then add the results for each ship together to get MOV.

I feel like having a fair tournament scoring system that doesn't arbitrarily favor 60 point tanks is worth the steep cost ~30 seconds of basic arithmetic at the end of each round.

I was more concerned about the changes it would make to the game strategically, although that's 30 seconds for each player, and more chances for a mispressed button to mess up results.

Let's see how things go with the current meta before saying anything is OP?

Interceptors by the way are anything but OP. Sure, they can dodge a lot. Sure autothrusters mitigate range 3 and being out of arc but OMG if you fly that falcon well you can just keep them in arc?? who'da thunk it.

...

You know I find it Ironic when people say let's see how things go with the current meta. I'm strongly opposed to the current to the phantom nerf as it absolutely **** echo, one of my favorite pilots. This nerf came just as the whole meta got shaken up by the arrival of scum and villany. IG 88 WRECKS turret builds. we were seeing a whole slew of non turret based phantom counters, turret counters, an other insanely cool builds arrive. Yet that's when they decide to nerf something the game had just adapted to and take it from being good to useless in the stroke of a pen.

Phantoms aren't going anywhere. Echo and Whisper will still be strong additions to a list. They'll just have more trouble taking down 100 point lists when they take a 14 point initiative bid. This "nerf" isn't a straight up reduction in power. In exchange for having to commit to a decloak posistion before seeing where everyone else is going Phantoms are going to find that their decloaks are harder to block and that ionization is much less of a threat.

I believe that for the next 6 months there will be less Phantoms then there are now.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still very popular. The tie swarm was regularly losing to fat Falcons. As stated before the main reason was MOV but honestly the falcon wasn't bad at mitigating damage. It will go down but not until the adv fix hits.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

Seriously?

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still popular

You should probably take a second look at List Juggler yourself.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

Seriously?

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still popular

You should probably take a second look at List Juggler yourself.

For the argument for changing to a partial MoV point system for large ships, let us not forget...

The Margin of Victory only affects tie breakers for people that barely make the cut. For a larger tourney with a cut to Top 8, this means MoV probably only helped 2 people make the Top Cut, and maybe harmed 3-6 other people who were also on the hairy edge, who might have played games that had an MoV influenced by a 1 hp Falcon living on the board too long. However, there are still 6 people that MoV had a very minimal impact on. I don't know this for sure, but I do have a sneaking suspicion that the players that go undefeated to make the top cut find their way to the finals table more often than the 2 loss players.

Just saying, I don't think partial MoV scoring will fix enough for people to stop complaining. It'd have to be literal pts scored that determine the match win outcome. And I just can't think of a great way to handle that, it just seems to ruin big ships if a rule is only applied to them, and/or kind of changes the spirit of the game where victory is achieved when all your ace pilots survive to fight another day, even though their ships are battered and bruised.

Exposed Decimators aren't all that great. Expose buy itself is not better than just taking a TL. But if you couple it with EI then you end up stressed. Honestly, Admiral Chirneau is way better off with predator and Engine Upgrade.

****... ninja'd

Absolutely true. I would never go with EI Chiraneau on a tournament because it was always dangerous to take double stress, but now with Warthogs enabling a lot of damage plus multiple ion tokens, and with Rebel control lists with Flechette cannons or torps, Tacticians and even Scyks with Flechette, you will often end up totally stressed out and needing multiple turns of greens to even get any use out of Experimental and Expose.

The problem with the idea that swarms counter turrets is that swarms really haven't been countering fat han much. It's nice in theory but hasn't been a major concern for them in tournaments. I'm actually more inclined to see things like 4x tie adv builds kill off the turrets since it can take multiple rounds to kill each ship and they put out significant crit damage. Crippling turrets before they have a chance to drop all 4 adv

You haven't seen them in tournaments because people haven't been playing them. This is mostly due to Phantoms out there.

Seriously?

You do realize swarms and mini swarms are the third most popular tourney list. 7 tie swarms never disappeared. Phantom and mini swarms were even more popular in tournaments.

Sorry your theory holds no water. Just look at list juggler and you will see swarms are still popular

You should probably take a second look at List Juggler yourself.

Maybe you should as well the phantom mini swarm was one of the most popular builds. I'm sorry are you still sore about utterly failing to comprehend how OP the fat falcon has been to the game and the meta. Or are you stil trying to convince people the falcon isn't any stronger then the old Han shoots first build and the fat falcon is just more options?

The Phantom nerf will induce less hard counters to it required, so more low skill pilots in competitive meta, that leads to less 2-ship turret lists automatically as they are weak to swarm type builds inherently. So what TIE Pilot said earlier is absolutely true. The Phantom nerf is the solution against a turret heavy meta as well!