...is a message I just received from a friend on my phone. Thoughts, people?

Heck no. The change made to Phantom should directly effect turrets. It will be okay.

Yes let's make interceptors the only top tier ship in the game...

Phantom nerf is turret nerf. Turrets kill phantoms. A lower phantom composition means more lists equipped to take on turrets (lists with more gun).

Yes let's make interceptors the only top tier ship in the game...

Even with autothrusters giving it more survivability against turrets, the difference between the Phantom and the Interceptor is still 4/4/2/2 versus 3/3/3/0. They're more brittle, less agile and have less bite.

We definitely need to wait and see how the metagame settles down. Turrets became popular as a counter to phantoms and interceptors. With interceptors getting a defensive countermeasure and arc dodging via cloaking becoming trickier, some of the pressure toward turrets is already gone.

Not so here, turrets became popular when C3PO was released. That they were also a strong counter to Phantoms, when they were released, was just an added bonus.

Not so here, turrets became popular when C3PO was released. That they were also a strong counter to Phantoms, when they were released, was just an added bonus.

Start running more than 2 or 3 ships

Yes let's make interceptors the only top tier ship in the game...

If the game has ship tiers it's done something wrong.

I notice you post pro turret / negative anything counter turret a lot?

Fat Han much?

At any rate if turrets are adjusted, the mobility of interceptors OR other dogfighters should be adjusted to taste.

Let's see how things go with the current meta before saying anything is OP?

Interceptors by the way are anything but OP. Sure, they can dodge a lot. Sure autothrusters mitigate range 3 and being out of arc but OMG if you fly that falcon well you can just keep them in arc?? who'da thunk it.

Also Soontir instadies to 3 bananas with feedback...

As long as turrets are slightly less powerful than arc'd guns, I'm ok. Sure you can HLC an Outrider, but you'll pay for it.

My only problem with turrets are Exposed Decimators. To gain an extra die, something should be taken away. Maybe errata Exposed to say "only if you can take one agility away."

I'm thinking that the Phantom change actually helps HLC Super Dash significantly. It wasn't too hard to get into the range one donut with the Phantom, but now Super Dash will easily be able to keep his distance.

A frenchman exposing himself isn't that much of a big deal. TL/EU seems worse.

Exposed Decimators aren't all that great. Expose buy itself is not better than just taking a TL. But if you couple it with EI then you end up stressed. Honestly, Admiral Chirneau is way better off with predator and Engine Upgrade.

****... ninja'd

Autothrusters took care of this. Turrets were popular because of the Phantom taking over the meta. Now people are more free to play other ships, which will naturally take care of expensive turreted ships. Autothrusters will go further to ensure people have non turret options.

yes, they do

primary weapon turrets are not a balance issue, though, so unfortunately we can't issue an easy fix. We'd need to recall or reissue turret bases with four firing arcs and a token representing the primary weapon's facing so that turrets would have to chose their facing before activation and they would actually have to think instead of just going herpderp around the table, tossing dice, and boring opponents to death

Yes let's make interceptors the only top tier ship in the game...

If the game has ship tiers it's done something wrong.

I notice you post pro turret / negative anything counter turret a lot?

Fat Han much?

At any rate if turrets are adjusted, the mobility of interceptors OR other dogfighters should be adjusted to taste.

Let's see how things go with the current meta before saying anything is OP?

Interceptors by the way are anything but OP. Sure, they can dodge a lot. Sure autothrusters mitigate range 3 and being out of arc but OMG if you fly that falcon well you can just keep them in arc?? who'da thunk it.

Also Soontir instadies to 3 bananas with feedback...

You honestly think this game doesn't have ship tiers? No game is so balanced. Some ships in this game are better than others and are completely worth there points. Yeah I agree there shouldn't be tiers but there definitely is.

I'm not pro turret or anti turret counter. The counters are already out there in the game. If anything is too strong I'd lean to aggressors having 3 green dice with auto thrusters. Maybe 2 greens with autos no autos idk they're killer though.

Anyway if anything I'm anti scrub. http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

So turrets should be adjusted then we should adjust all of the other ships to go along with it?

Han, dash, chiraneu, and the rest are fine in my opinion. If you fly 3 or less ships then yeah you are going to have an insanely hard time beating them. But they have a hard time against 4 or more. I thought phantoms and autoceptors were fine as well. Did the decloak need to change? In my opinion no. But I think I see where they're coming from it. I'd rather find counters to things due to squad building, flying, and out playing rather than errata or straight up cards.

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

I don't know about "ship tiers" in X-wing. It has a much more rock/paper/scissors vibe going for it

It used to be swarms > turrets > phantoms > swarms, but even those matchups were never so cut and dry even before control came to wedge itself in over all archetypes other than swarm

And now we got Aggressors also wedging themselves over all archetypes, only not really fitting into a stable counter because they're so well rounded (although I maintain Defenders still kick their ass)

X-wing is so far the most balanced game I have played, and the "ship tiers" as of wave 6 are so in flux they might as well not exist

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

no, fat han and Whisper are the fire ant eater and the fire ants of X-wing

the later devoured everything else, and the former devoured the later

Honestly, I find the Paul Special to be some very weak **** in comparison to the other supposed top tier builds. When I'm flying 3 agility ships, I find it incredibly easy to ignore the talas and just pile on Han until he stops moving. Han + Corran is far more frightening, but even then they had nothing on Whisper + Chiraneau. If anything, Super Dash may become the next top dog now that his natural predator is no longer so easily able to react to the distance he puts between himself and it.

Turrets are a pain in the ass and an ungodly boring/uninspired design that it affirms the fact that humans are not and never well be perfect (though X-wing came so close ) but once you get accustomed to their mind-numbing playstyle they're not that amazing. The trick is just focus fire as much as possible until it **** off or dies. Don't try chasing it when it **** off because large base + boost = you better be an Aggressor if you hope to catch up, and instead swing around to kill the helpless escort rather than letting them put holes in your bum while you're off on a wild goose chase.

Cross your fingers that the dice don't swing the turret's way (Because you can literally never outplay that stupid 360 "arc") and you'll be in good shape

I've always been more fly casual. if you were anti scrub and found falcons getting weaker and interceptors getting stronger, maybe you'd be flying the baron.

Nah, it looks like you jumped on the falcon wagon.

There are tiered ships, but they are constantly being rebalanced.

I love my turret Y-wings, ALWAYS HAVE. But there is a beauty in flying interceptor dogfight. The TIE Advanced previously sucked - I proxied the X1 and ATC and love the hell out of it.

The defender... Vessery in that X1 list is great!

HWK? Ok so Rebel is pretty weak I think, but scum is AMAZING.

Also, really can't say ships are weak so much as pilots are.

Fells Wrath, Generic x-wings, etc etc.

The meta defines a lot of choices, from upgrade cards to what pilots fielded. But there are currently not too many losers.

I don't really think the falcon needs a nerf. So much as C3PO needs an errata not allowing it to guess 0.

Turrets are here to stay, and they have their place. They are expensive and massed fire takes them down. Autothrusters just means that tinterceptors don't immediately explode upon entering range.

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

I've been playing the same basic list archetype (4x interceptors, Bomber) since the beginning, and I've yet to lose to Fat Han, especially since now people are playing just him and Corran Horn. I don't understand why this is a thing.

I don't know about "ship tiers" in X-wing. It has a much more rock/paper/scissors vibe going for it

It used to be swarms > turrets > phantoms > swarms, but even those matchups were never so cut and dry even before control came to wedge itself in over all archetypes other than swarm

And now we got Aggressors also wedging themselves over all archetypes, only not really fitting into a stable counter because they're so well rounded (although I maintain Defenders still kick their ass)

X-wing is so far the most balanced game I have played, and the "ship tiers" as of wave 6 are so in flux they might as well not exist

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

no, fat han and Whisper are the fire ant eater and the fire ants of X-wing

the later devoured everything else, and the former devoured the later

Honestly, I find the Paul Special to be some very weak **** in comparison to the other supposed top tier builds. When I'm flying 3 agility ships, I find it incredibly easy to ignore the talas and just pile on Han until he stops moving. Han + Corran is far more frightening, but even then they had nothing on Whisper + Chiraneau.

Turrets are a pain in the ass and an ungodly boring/uninspired design that it affirms the fact that humans are not and never well be perfect (though X-wing came so close ) but once you get accustomed to their mind-numbing playstyle they're not that amazing. The trick is just focus fire as much as possible until it **** off or dies. Don't try chasing it when it **** off because large base + boost = you better be an Aggressor if you hope to catch up, and instead swing around to kill the helpless escort rather than letting them put holes in your bum while you're off on a wild goose chase.

Using your example of swarms>turrets>phantoms>swarm

You have the Phantom as an archetype, you can't tell me all swarm ships are the same. The tie fighter is better than the z95 for it. An outer rim smuggler or blaster turret hawk isn't the same as Han or chiraneu. There are definitely tiers. So ships and combos are better than others.

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

...because the list won worlds a few months ago and still continues to do work at local tournies.

I'm all for the Phantom change, but its curious nothing was done to Fat Han/Super Dash. Fat Han and Whisper are the king and queen of X-wing, nerfing one and not the other is a terrible decision IMO. AT is a welcome upgrade, but only a select few ships can bring it along and its still only does so much. The Paul special will still reign, only Phantoms really suffer.

The biggest mistake in this analysis is in assuming that Han and Whisper are competing with one another, as if they're on opposite ends of a teeter-totter--pushing down on one will make the other one rise.

But Han and Whisper are linked; the Falcon is popular in part because it's an obvious, accessible hard counter to the Phantom. Han makes a lot of sense in an environment where you otherwise need to anticipate as many as 45 possible landing locations for a highly offensive ship, and he makes even more sense in an environment where two-ship lists win a plurality of major tournaments.

But because the Phantom as a source of stress in the metagame, nerfing it reduces one of the forces buoying the Falcon. It's a terribly inefficient way to spend your points, honestly, and one with a number of soft counters. (Warthogs are a potent new one, and it's also very vulnerable to any kind of swarm, and the Falcon doesn't like ordnance very much either.)

And that's not even talking about the impact of Autothrusters. So if I were in the position of making major decisions about the X-wing game, I would be waiting to see what impact Wave 6 and the Phantom change had on the game before I thought about any changes to turret primary weapons.

I've always been more fly casual. if you were anti scrub and found falcons getting weaker and interceptors getting stronger, maybe you'd be flying the baron.

Nah, it looks like you jumped on the falcon wagon.

There are tiered ships, but they are constantly being rebalanced.

I love my turret Y-wings, ALWAYS HAVE. But there is a beauty in flying interceptor dogfight. The TIE Advanced previously sucked - I proxied the X1 and ATC and love the hell out of it.

The defender... Vessery in that X1 list is great!

HWK? Ok so Rebel is pretty weak I think, but scum is AMAZING.

Also, really can't say ships are weak so much as pilots are.

Fells Wrath, Generic x-wings, etc etc.

The meta defines a lot of choices, from upgrade cards to what pilots fielded. But there are currently not too many losers.

I don't really think the falcon needs a nerf. So much as C3PO needs an errata not allowing it to guess 0.

Turrets are here to stay, and they have their place. They are expensive and massed fire takes them down. Autothrusters just means that tinterceptors don't immediately explode upon entering range.

If I'm on any wagon it's the what do I think is going to win this tournament wagon. Last tournament it was 3 autoceptors, did it's job and had a 97 point initiative bid against fels and whispers so I could move last and the auto thrusters did exactly what I thought they would do against the turrets. Just had to spread my ships around so a crazy k turn wouldn't catch all 3.

The week before that it was phantom hunter luke, jake, and 3 z's.

Before that it was, chewie and leebo. I run what I feel like is going to beat the other lists there.

I like how you're trying to be condescending and that flying a falcon is a bad thing.

Everyone talks **** about Fat Han being so hard to beat. I don't understand it.

...because the list won worlds a few months ago and still continues to do work at local tournies.

Right, but it's ridiculously easy to counter. It only has a small handfull of offensive dice, which if Han turtles aren't really modified. It shouldn't be this big bad boogieman, because all you need is a decent offense, and it crumples like wet cardboard. Sure, he can block 2 a base two damage per turn, plus .5 per attack that happens beside the one he uses C3P0 on, so 4.5 damage blocked.

I'm looking at (on average, with focus) 2 hits per interceptor (so 8) plus around 1 more from the bomber (without a missile). So I'm dealing, on average, 4.5 damage per turn on him. He's going to go down like a sweet muffin.

Turrets are fine as is now that Autothrusters are an option. If by "turrets," you mean Fat Falcons, what may need adjusting still is their ability to stack so many evades and shield-regeneration abilities. Not sure they can, or are willing to, adjust that.