There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

very much this and a host of other factors, such as

1.) Playing Whisper got a lot less ******* boring because there's more thinking to be done and less "oh, you're over there? let me decloak in the opposite direction"

2.) Sigmas will see the light of day not just because we're done kissing whisper's feet, but because less phantoms should lead to (fingers crossed) less turrets (and **** turrets)

Honestly, I think Engine Upgrade on the Falcon is more OP than any droid. Being able to dodge arcs in your already hard to kill ship is huge.

...and Jo Jo nailed it on the head. Sort of. I wouldn't call Engine Upgrade on the Large ships overpowered, but I definitely think they make C-3PO more effective. That's the combination that let's Han "kite" and take out swarms without the crazy return fire. Are there ways around it? Most definitely. Is it easy? I would argue no. Does this make the game interesting? Heck yeah!

OP might have been too strong a word. But certainly its really good.

Have you ever tried to chase down a large base ship with EU using slow ships like Z-95s? Good luck getting into range 1 and usually when you do they boost out of arc.

I'm actually excited to run this:

Echo + VI + ACD + Intel Agent + Enhanced Scopes

She will be essentially be unblockable and still move like the Phantom of old, but before anybody else does. With IA she will still get to react to where higher PS ships are going to be ending up. VI might not be the best, but you will get to shoot before a lot of ships. You are going to be able to block just about any thing.

C3p0 can also be used with lando to generate an evade token (which seems silly but you can totally do it). Do it like that and C3p0 becomes a pure evade token and you can still roll your agility for more evasion (but.. you know.. c3p0 lone wolf has a pretty similar effect).

Six points, your action and two crew slots. MF title does the same for 1 point and your action.

Or - y'know - you could just use Lando and C3PO independently of each other, and enjoy up to three evades per turn. Four if you have the Millennium Falcon title and Experimental Interface/Push the Limit as well.

so, This would possibly open up the EPT for something other than VI no? PtL after ACD for a barrel roll or evade. I wonder...

nope

no other ept is going to enable Whisper like V.I (+2 agility + focus before being shot makes her worlds more survivable)

C-3PO is not in the same league as the Phantom, as far as balance issues are concerned. No one should hold his or her breath waiting for a fix, there.

True, it is in a league of its own, far above the Phantom when on a Fat Falcon.

There's no variance or risk involved, unless you are flying and rolling, poorly (the attacks), that you'll ever need to guess more than 0.

he meant the opposite, that the power of de-cloak far exceeded Cp30's one guaranteed evade per turn

Yes, and my argument is that it wasn't.

Phantoms never gave me the problems that the vocal majority seem to have.

People realise 3PO is significantly weaker than Isard, right? 3PO is mathematically 5/8s of a free evade token, and Isard is a whole evade token. 3PO + and evade die caps at one damage cancelled, Isard and an evade die (Kenkirk) can block two, and that's without spending an action.

3PO only triggers once per round. He's either going to cancel one damage or the evade die will have cancelled it anyway. He's a threat when you're attacking a Falcon with a single ship, but focus fire on the thing and the odds of survival are, well, never tell him the odds.

Except the Decimator does not have the same (awesome) dial, nor access to double (or triple) Evades, and non-Determination crit immunity (i.e. the less seen, Fat Chewie), etc. Also, Agility 0, if you fly anything but Kenkirk.

C-3PO is not in the same league as the Phantom, as far as balance issues are concerned. No one should hold his or her breath waiting for a fix, there.

True, it is in a league of its own, far above the Phantom when on a Fat Falcon.

There's no variance or risk involved, unless you are flying and rolling, poorly (the attacks), that you'll ever need to guess more than 0.

If Threepio were as dangerous as you claim, he'd be an auto-include on the Falcon--but we didn't see that in either Wave 4 or Wave 5. He was a common inclusion, but not a universal one, and lots of ships without him did fine.

People realise 3PO is significantly weaker than Isard, right?

If Threepio were as dangerous as you claim, he'd be an auto-include on the Falcon--but we didn't see that in either Wave 4 or Wave 5. He was a common inclusion, but not a universal one, and lots of ships without him did fine.

Our "meta" is definitely not the same then.

Going through my logs, I've faced 3 Falcon loadouts that didn't include 3PO, since the release of the Tantive.

That is 3 games out of 86 which included a Falcon without the card.

Phantoms are dead now imo lol. Don't know about you guys, but they no longer scare me after this.

Phantoms are dead now imo lol. Don't know about you guys, but they no longer scare me after this.

You never faced a good Phantom player then. A good Phantom player doesn't need to know where everybody is when he decloak to know where he wants to decloak.

Going through my logs, I've faced 3 Falcon loadouts that didn't include 3PO, since the release of the Tantive.

That is 3 games out of 86 which included a Falcon without the card.

How many Soontir Fels have you faced in that time who didn't use Push the Limit?

How many Whispers without ACD?

Are you suggesting these combinations should be "nerfed" as well, simply because they happen regularly?

Some cards simply pair together well with certain ships and pilots (maybe because, y'know, that's what they're DESIGNED TO DO).

There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

very much this and a host of other factors, such as

1.) Playing Whisper got a lot less ******* boring because there's more thinking to be done and less "oh, you're over there? let me decloak in the opposite direction"

2.) Sigmas will see the light of day not just because we're done kissing whisper's feet, but because less phantoms should lead to (fingers crossed) less turrets (and **** turrets)

Time during lunch...

You know what you did... You broke the Godwin's law, and got upvoted for it. You sir win all the internets.

There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

very much this and a host of other factors, such as

1.) Playing Whisper got a lot less ******* boring because there's more thinking to be done and less "oh, you're over there? let me decloak in the opposite direction"

2.) Sigmas will see the light of day not just because we're done kissing whisper's feet, but because less phantoms should lead to (fingers crossed) less turrets (and **** turrets)

I can't imagine you being fun to play against. You seem easily bored.

I have high standards. It's why I play x-wing

note, I don't mind playing against Whisper as she was (in fact, she inspired me to create the Stress Wing) I just don't enjoy using her because she's very forgiving and she's everywhere (in lists, I mean, not on the table). She was a great challenge to hold oneself to, it's just that ease and repetition makes things boring in general.

The only thing I do not enjoy playing against are primary turrets exclusively

Going through my logs, I've faced 3 Falcon loadouts that didn't include 3PO, since the release of the Tantive.

That is 3 games out of 86 which included a Falcon without the card.

How many Soontir Fels have you faced in that time who didn't use Push the Limit?

How many Whispers without ACD?

Are you suggesting these combinations should be "nerfed" as well, simply because they happen regularly?

Some cards simply pair together well with certain ships and pilots (maybe because, y'know, that's what they're DESIGNED TO DO).

Not sure if you've been following the posts or are just jumping in at random.

if you've have been reading the previous posts please know that, for the record, I don't have a problem with auto-includes.

As indicated earlier, I have a problem with upgrades or pilot-upgrade combinations that ruin the game.

And I have a problem when people cry about "broken Phantoms", when Phantoms never were as difficult to deal with as Fat Han still is - when playing timed matches.

That is an entirely different discussion though. This is about the Phantom "nerf".

There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

very much this and a host of other factors, such as

1.) Playing Whisper got a lot less ******* boring because there's more thinking to be done and less "oh, you're over there? let me decloak in the opposite direction"

2.) Sigmas will see the light of day not just because we're done kissing whisper's feet, but because less phantoms should lead to (fingers crossed) less turrets (and **** turrets)

I can't imagine you being fun to play against. You seem easily bored.

I have high standards. It's why I play x-wing

note, I don't mind playing against Whisper as she was (in fact, she inspired me to create the Stress Wing) I just don't enjoy using her because she's very forgiving and she's everywhere (in lists, I mean, not on the table). She was a great challenge to hold oneself to, it's just that ease and repetition makes things boring in general.

The only thing I do not enjoy playing against are primary turrets exclusively

There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

very much this and a host of other factors, such as

1.) Playing Whisper got a lot less ******* boring because there's more thinking to be done and less "oh, you're over there? let me decloak in the opposite direction"

2.) Sigmas will see the light of day not just because we're done kissing whisper's feet, but because less phantoms should lead to (fingers crossed) less turrets (and **** turrets)

I can't imagine you being fun to play against. You seem easily bored.

I have high standards. It's why I play x-wing

note, I don't mind playing against Whisper as she was (in fact, she inspired me to create the Stress Wing) I just don't enjoy using her because she's very forgiving and she's everywhere (in lists, I mean, not on the table). She was a great challenge to hold oneself to, it's just that ease and repetition makes things boring in general.

The only thing I do not enjoy playing against are primary turrets exclusively

I'm going to play you in epic and only run yt-1300's and 2400's

might be the only time I dip into my savings to purchase as many tie fighters and bombers as I can possibly field

Played a game last night with the new Whisper and cloaking rules.

It was very interesting, As others have stated, the new rules are a different way of thinking. I found myself having to correct the way I think when using the phantom. My brain was trained on how I used to use the Phantom not how it is now. Decloaking early, has some advantage and disadvantage, I actually several times bumped people which previously I never bumped anyone before. Also cloaking is something you do for your action alot more. Whisper was destroyed by a Wedge with a 11 PS, but decloaking is now a lot more fun. It requires a new way of thinking for sure, plus I think that echo may be played more now.

Thanks for the change FFG, I had a really challenging time flying the Phantom, but it was a lot of fun too.

People realise 3PO is significantly weaker than Isard, right? 3PO is mathematically 5/8s of a free evade token, and Isard is a whole evade token. 3PO + and evade die caps at one damage cancelled, Isard and an evade die (Kenkirk) can block two, and that's without spending an action.

3PO only triggers once per round. He's either going to cancel one damage or the evade die will have cancelled it anyway. He's a threat when you're attacking a Falcon with a single ship, but focus fire on the thing and the odds of survival are, well, never tell him the odds.

And then the falcon can choose evade as an action and get the two guarentee saves.

Isard is great, but 3po is just better as far as I can tell.

This is a completely unnecessary nerf. Scum already had a lot of built-in counters for the Phantom, this did not need to happen. Now it is extremely difficult to justify the cost of the Phantom. I think this may be the dumbest change FFG has ever made for X-Wing. Although the playmat requirement is pretty close.

I find it ironic that the Phantom got nerfed into the ground, but C-3PO Fat Falcons are still fine and dandy. I guess FFG thought Autothrusters was enough to beat down Falcons, but Feedback Array/Torkhil Mux/Turrets/Ion/Stress/Decloak blocking was NOT enough for the Phantom...

C-3PO is not in the same league as the Phantom, as far as balance issues are concerned. No one should hold his or her breath waiting for a fix, there.

I don't know - many claimed a rules change like this one (for the Phantom) wasn't needed or coming either. If C-3PO is changed, then the card is changed. If not, then not. Seeing is believing here. Admittedly that is not quite the same as holding one's breath...but I for one won't be utterly surprised if C-3PO receives an erratum as well.

One reason to change some rule might be to 'open up' design possibilities for future releases. So we might not know all considerations that went into this.

Except he didn't receive an errata. I don't know why they would do it later when it is a "problem" at the moment. The thing to remember, the highly defensive Falcon is more in response to popularity of other Falcon builds in the meta. With the Phantom being taken down a bit, a lot of the things that can fight Falcons will be around.

That, and I don't see how Falcon's still are not hurt by Autothrusters flying around...

One erratum, two errata.

My point was not that C-3PO needs an erratum or a fix, but rather that it still seems premature to say that this will not happen. As I said: more than a few posters in this forum, as my sketchy memory recalls, argued quite well that the Phantom was fine as it was. I was convinced. Then along comes this.

Fool me once, fool me twice...I'm not going to believe 'the meta is like this so so-and-so will not be changed' wisdom.

Isard is great, but 3po is just better as far as I can tell.

Threepio provides an average of 0.625 extra evades per round, every round where the Falcon is attacked at least once. Isard provides a guaranteed evade every round after the first 4 damage (on a Decimator). Which of those produces the larger overall effect is variable depending on the context of the game, but Isard has the mathematical edge.

Threepio is an easy and obvious addition to a popular and successful list archetype, and that makes him look more powerful than he actually is.

That's not to say he's not a good upgrade, and in fact he's probably underpriced by a point or two when you look at things like the Chewbacca crew card. But as I said upthread, Threepio is just not in the Phantom's league.

To be fair, Isard doesn't work with stress, and 3P0 can also be used in desperation to guess more than zero (particularly useful if behind a rock). Additionally, 3PO gets compounded by R2D2 crew and/or Falcon title. One automatic damage negated is one thing, one on top of a couple others (not that they don't have their own drawbacks is another). I'm not hating on 3P0, but it's more than a 5/8ths evades per turn vs 1 evade per turn argument.

To be fair, Isard doesn't work with stress, and 3P0 can also be used in desperation to guess more than zero (particularly useful if behind a rock). Additionally, 3PO gets compounded by R2D2 crew and/or Falcon title. One automatic damage negated is one thing, one on top of a couple others (not that they don't have their own drawbacks is another). I'm not hating on 3P0, but it's more than a 5/8ths evades per turn vs 1 evade per turn argument.

Isanne versus C3PO is a very rough comparison to make because the fact that one's a free action and the other isn't makes them wildly different despite similar ends (canceling damage)

Ysanne:

free action at the beginning of combat phase makes it so you can't stack evade (relevant for firesprays)

stress shuts her down

fact that she is an action lets you E.I or PTL trigger during that time, which ensures you get off expose after a bump or can possibly boost after everyone has moved even if you're PS 3.

C3PO:

not a free action, can be stacked with evade

not an action so can't be shut down by stress, making it generally much more available than Ysanne (especially since he doesn't need a damaged ship to trigger)

is dependent on dice rolls so is worthless in 0 agility situations (wedge, outmaneuver, or that -1 agility critical)

To be fair, Isard doesn't work with stress, and 3P0 can also be used in desperation to guess more than zero (particularly useful if behind a rock). Additionally, 3PO gets compounded by R2D2 crew and/or Falcon title. One automatic damage negated is one thing, one on top of a couple others (not that they don't have their own drawbacks is another). I'm not hating on 3P0, but it's more than a 5/8ths evades per turn vs 1 evade per turn argument.

Yeah, the problem isn't 3P0. It's 3PO + R2D2 + Falcon title + boosting for the arc-dodge.

Seems no one is mentioning that the only limiting factor behind 3-PO is whether you want to buy a $60-80 ship =)

There have been a lot of level-headed comments, but I can't help but laugh at those who say "Finally, I can start playing again!". You, sirs, are your own undoing.

See, I'm just excited because I've been wanting to play a Phantom, but didn't want folks to think I was being a jerk by playing a Phantom. So now maybe I can get in some table time, flying what's in my head just a Super-Interceptor, without feeling like a netlister or something.

It's you're game, run whatever the heck you want. If people say you're a jerk it's coming from a place of them not being good at the game and unable to counter.

It's not just my game. It's my game plus the game of my friends. My ability to play the game is entirely predicated on their willingness to play it with me. Personally, I tend to play against a lot of players who are still starting out or new at the game, and I have been specifically avoiding the Phantom because it's simply too much to ask them to take in. I already have an edge from being experienced and having all of the ships. I didn't need to be dancing out of their firing arcs on top of that.

Seems no one is mentioning that the only limiting factor behind 3-PO is whether you want to buy a $60-80 ship =)

in a competitive setting, $ is no obstacle

Vorpal, it's not just 3PO; he's one card. It's 3PO, Falcon title, and R2 crew (Lando for the gamblers) in combination on one ship that is "broken," for lack of a better term. Essentially a guaranteed ability to ignore/regain 3 damage per turn is the problem when 90+% of ships are 3 attack or less. Yes, it can be beaten, blah, blah, but it is disproportionately good and disproportionately affects every game it appears in. Personally, the game is overdue for damage deck update which affects crew, sensors, mods, etc which would be one small step. Otherwise, it is hard for me to see how they "fix" a combo of cards without essentially targeting 1 card, which would probably be 3PO.

Vorpal, it's not just 3PO; he's one card. It's 3PO, Falcon title, and R2 crew (Lando for the gamblers) in combination on one ship that is "broken," for lack of a better term. Essentially a guaranteed ability to ignore/regain 3 damage per turn is the problem when 90+% of ships are 3 attack or less. Yes, it can be beaten, blah, blah, but it is disproportionately good and disproportionately affects every game it appears in. Personally, the game is overdue for damage deck update which affects crew, sensors, mods, etc which would be one small step. Otherwise, it is hard for me to see how they "fix" a combo of cards without essentially targeting 1 card, which would probably be 3PO.

My point is something more like this: substitute Chewbacca for Threepio in that combination and see how much worse it gets. If the answer is "not much", then the problem is stacking durability upgrades on an already-durable ship, not any of the individual upgrades.

And the right fix for the combo is to make sure the game creates incentives to stay on offense, rather than to spend a dozen points building a turtle.