The 'old' and the new

By Laban Shrewsbury, in 1. AGoT General Discussion

I'd like to ask the veterans of this great game about their experiences of the pre-core cards (I'm thinking here only of the Clash of Arms chapter packs, nothing earlier), when compared to the LCG core and post-core cards.

My little group are new to the game and were originally intending to restrict ourselves to the core and later packs. But, as tends to happen, some Clash of Arms packs have now appeared. After looking at some of these 'old' cards there seems to be a slightly different... philosophy, for want of a better word... to those that came later. And I'm not talking about the border colour either!

A few cherry-picked gui%C3%B1o.gif examples perhaps:

  • The core rules talk about +Initiative cards but we'd never seen it on a card. But here comes the Overzealous Scout and he's a big, juicy +4 initiative. Is it a simple case of FFG not having re-printed any +initiative cards yet, or was there a shift in the 'spirit' of the game somewhere which meant that these cards have been toned down? I was expecting to see some +1 or <gasp> maybe a +2 some day, so this guy came as something of a shock. (Yes, I know MwnK would eat this guy up).
  • Jaqen H'ghar looks a bit tasty at first glance. Banned from tournaments (because he's considered to be O/P?) but not from casual play.
  • Rhaegar . 4 cost, 5 strength tri-icon with no real negatives? He's not got much else going for him mind you. Is that cheap?

We've yet to see how these cards play in a real game so please don't get the impression I'm screaming "wtf! overpowered!" or anything. I'm just curious to read about whether other people consider these cards to be in complete harmony with the later stuff, or whether there was a minor change of direction which makes some of these cards 'feel' a little odd by comparison. Do you need CoA cards to fight CoA cards?

Now, I just need to get my hands on a Jhalabar Xho and those Baratheons will never know what hit them...

Well, CoA was supposed to be a continuation of the Five Kings block, so a lot of the cards tie in really well to that particular set. That's probably the "philosophy" difference you're seeing. That said, I'll touch on a few of your questions:

There used to be a handful of initiative boosters and there are some coming in Greyjoy expansion (well, 1 at least), but I don't know that they've ever seen a great deal of play. I used to use Blockade Runners (a 0-cost, +1 initiative baratheon card) back in the day, but mostly because they thinned my deck down. And maybe way back in the A Crown of Suns days with Market Streets I'd occasionally throw one or two in, but overall, there's generally better things to put in a deck and supplement with high initiative plots (well, maybe not so easy with just the plots we have now). I have run the Scouts in a couple of decks, though. The intrigue icon can be helpful in houses that are light on intrigue and the +4 init is good in the LCG, I think. And I rarely worry about MWNK, I guess. Just run resets and targetted removal...

Jaqen's a fun little piece of cardboard, but he's kind of banned for good reason. You'll find he's just annoying mostly and can be gamebreaking.

Rhaegar IS undercosted, 4 for 5 tricon with two crests is excellent. PLUS he's a King and he's got a response that's neat if not used all that much. He was designed as something of a "super rare" or some such for the CCG, hence his being so good, I guess. He makes his way into all of my Targ decks, for sure. I think we'll be seeing some more characters on par with him, though, maybe; Arthur Dayne already, Robert Arryn soon.

As for needing CoA cards to fight CoA cards: nah. There are a lot of good cards to be had, though and a lot of strategies that can really be fleshed out in a lot of decks (Castellan of the Rock, comes to mind immediately). I'd say they're a good investment for sure.

I do not use Rhaegar in my Targ decks anymore. Too often he was becoming a card I could only play if I was behind in the game. Because his ability can be triggered by any player, if I had board advantage, I found he was being used as a free Valar by my opponent. They would reveal Valar, trigger his ability, then start the next round and reveal a new plot with higher gold and initiative. If I also had card advantage in hand, they then revealed Rule By Decree to even up the hand advantage. So basically I kept holding onto him until I was behind in the game so I could pull off the combo above myself. But personally, I don't like using cards that are only good part of the time. Yes, his stats and icons and crests are really nice, but most of the time he rarely lived long.

Yeah, I guess I could see that. I try (TRY?) to always have a save handy when I play him (usually not a problem given my Targ deck). I guess it's been a while since I've actually had him die...weird. Usually people will target dragons or other cards with some keyword, in my experience, but I suppose that's not always the case.

i find Rhaegar much more useful in melee then i do joust. In joust he doesn;t give me enough, and in melee he adds another deminsion to table talk and deal making. I.e. If you attack me this round w/ miltary i'm just going to end the round (works well when/if the guy supporting/kingsguard has not attacked yet).

The clash of arms packs work fine with the core set+ (it is the same game after all) and they even help some of the post core set chapter packs (king/queen trait usage, king renly. etc). They help flesh otu decks for sure and while a little stronger then some of the other packs aren't overpowering (especially with the new chapter packs coming out).

+ Initiative are working their way back into the game again so the scout is no longer the only one. Also + initiative isn't as important to a deck as gold or influence so has always been seen in limited quantities.

Jaquen is a rush technique that gets stale to play against after a while. Even if you use him for casual play i'd read up on his erratta (which i don;t remember excatly so don;t want to confuse). Easy way to stop him is to slap a mik of the poppy on him.

Laban Shrewsbury said:

I'm just curious to read about whether other people consider these cards to be in complete harmony with the later stuff, or whether there was a minor change of direction which makes some of these cards 'feel' a little odd by comparison. Do you need CoA cards to fight CoA cards?

No, you really do not need CoA cards to fight CoA cards. If anything, that particular observation is more true of the Ravens CPs. If you're going to deal with seasons, you have no other options.

"Complete harmony" is a loaded term. Every set has its own themes and emphasis. So there are things in CoA that are not in the Core Set or Ravens. But the cards certainly work just fine with everything "post Core." In fact, CoA is the only LCG source for certain traits references on Ravens cards (for now, anyway). Seriously, when you play with the cards and see them in your deck, they don't seem odd at all. The "oddest" thing you may experience if you started with the Core Set and went "backwards" to CoA is that you will not see any "pay gold" effects in CoA. This is because the resource management for gold changed in the Core Set rules. For those of us who came the other way (saw the CoA stuff before the Core Set), it's the Core Set, counting out gold tokens, and paying gold outside of Marshaling that's weird. So there is a certain perspective involved.

I mean, the Shadows stuff in the KL packs "feel" much odder by comparison than CoA - because CoA has all the same mechanics as the Core Set (short of the "pay gold" stuff), but Shadows is completely new.

I really don't see any significant difference in "feel," compatibility or playability between CoA and the Core Set and beyond. There are block themes, but that's about it.