First off, this thread isn't asking if you think FFG will allow this or if this should happen. This thread is asking "If it DID happen, what do you think would be an appropriate cost or design?"

If it were ever going to be possible to fire multiple equipped Missiles or Torpedoes at the same time, how much should it cost? How should it look? What shoudl be the penalty? I'm thinking somewhere in the department of 4-5 points PER extra missile/torp you can fire.

Here's the issue with bombers though. A cheap bomber - fully loaded with 2 Proton Torpedoes and 2 Cluster Missiles, can potentially take out a fully armed Decimator in one attack if it launches all of it's stuff. So you could say something like "Ok fine, you wanna blow 4 shots in one attack? Fine - but you'll have to spend nearly your entire list to do it". A Scimitar Pilot with those 4 secondaries costs 32. if we made "Super Salvo" cost 20 points, that would make the ship cost 52 points, which might still be too cheap. Because I coudl take another and just swap one missile and still maybe be able to take out a double decimator build on the 2nd turn. I think this is broken. Would have to cost probably over 30 points, and by then, it just feels rotten. Lets try a different approach.

I think the best approach to doing this is to make an upgrade that grants you ONE extra shot of the same type.

"After you fire a secondary weapon that requires you to spend your target lock, If you have no stress you may then gain a target lock on the same ship, and perform another secondary weapon attack against the same ship. After that, gain a stress." Type: Modification - Cost: 4

• This is a modification, so would prevent taking munitions failsafe with it.
• This would work on B-Wings, Y-Wings, and Bombers.
• The cost of 4, in addition to the cost of two ordnances, adds up to around 10-ish extra points for a single extra shot, which in most cases will be unmodified.
• This could also potentially work with the Slave-1 title, which I'm sure might make some people happy.
• This would have extra synergy with bombers, who could potentially take 4 secondaries, and have 2 turns of double shots.
• The requirement to be unstressed should limit it somewhat.
• I think this type of card should launch at the same time as another alternative - perhaps a modification that allows you to roll one extra die per ordnance shot, or something that makes you need to make a hard choice.
• Nera Dantels would probably like this alot.

Thoughts? How would you approach firing multiple shots? What would you do differently?

Interesting fix idea!

I think the cost may still be prohibitive, and it does not address the basic problems with ordnance directly ( cost, one shot, action use resulting in sub-optimal damage). The main thing this fix has going for it is that it allows a corran horn-like double tap.

Basically, the fact that you need to spend 12ish points to activate this fix is just too much, especially if you consider that the other problems with ordnance still apply.

Someone's been watching that video where the TIE bomber fires everything at once...

Interesting fix idea!

I think the cost may still be prohibitive, and it does not address the basic problems with ordnance directly ( cost, one shot, action use resulting in sub-optimal damage). The main thing this fix has going for it is that it allows a corran horn-like double tap.

Basically, the fact that you need to spend 12ish points to activate this fix is just too much, especially if you consider that the other problems with ordnance still apply.

But 12 points could be worth it to perhaps finish off a decimator that has something like 8 hull left? It's a situational type thing.

Additionally there are other cheap variants. A Flechette Torpedo and an Ion Pulse Missile could wreak havoc if fired together, and they only cost 2 and 3 respectively. Or just multiple flechettes for stacking stress.

Someone's been watching that video where the TIE bomber fires everything at once...

Exactly!

Crabbok,

I like your base idea here. I don't believe there should ever be a modifaction or pilot ability in this game to fire ALL of your ordinance. It may be balanced on paper, but it just seems too abusable with specific factions and their synergy.

I like your double shot for ordinance. The requirement to not be stressed is actually an accurate requirement, I would keep that. I don't mind the cost of 4 points at this time, but I would only find that acceptable if more appropriately costed secondary weapons keep coming out in future waves.

Another possible version could be similar to what Corran Horn can do with primary weapon attacks (Baba ninja'd).

Modification - 2 points - "At the start of the end phase if you may perform one secondary weapon attack with an equipped missile or torpedo upgrade. You cannot attack during the next round.

While I like the idea of taking a stress to perform a second attack, I believe this kind of modification would fit in well with the hit and run aspect of bombers for this game. You can roll in with even a Z-95 that has homing missiles, target lock action, don't use it for your primary attack and then fire homing missiles off at the end of the turn...and fly away the next turn.

A-Wings would have to choose between this and Autothrusters...Advanceds become a little more powerful with proton rockets...

This isn't as good as Corran's ability because it is limited to ordinance, but it might be something everyone wants to invest in. However, it is a one time thing, so I think two points is reasonable. Also, you cannot fit munitions failsafe with this, so it cannot be abused.

Meanwhile ships that have multiple ordinance slots get more mileage out of it.

I think the only problem is that Corran Horn's ability might become drowned out, and feel less unique. I'd like to keep his ability more unique, and I think that lies in the fact that he has teh choice at the end of the turn, after surveying how things have turned out he gets to decide. I also don't really want Z-95s to be able to shoot twice. I think there should be other, separate ordnance boosts, that can help ships like the Z-95 and A-wing.

Perhaps the Modification for ordnance needs to require and action - so it typically has to be chosen BEFORE combat starts. Example:

Heavy Salvo: Action: Your equipped secondary weapons that require a target lock to fire, may fire without a target lock this turn. After you attack a ship with a secondary weapon, you may then perform an extra attack with a secondary weapon. Do not attack next turn. If you take a face-up damage card at any time, flip this card over. Modifcation - Cost 4.

This way you run the risk of wasting the salvo if you destroy the ship before firing your second shot. This Heavy Salvo is also delicate, so if take any crits, it ruins your potential to fire. True glass cannon build here.

I think the only problem is that Corran Horn's ability might become drowned out, and feel less unique. I'd like to keep his ability more unique, and I think that lies in the fact that he has teh choice at the end of the turn, after surveying how things have turned out he gets to decide. I also don't really want Z-95s to be able to shoot twice. I think there should be other, separate ordnance boosts, that can help ships like the Z-95 and A-wing.

Perhaps the Modification for ordnance needs to require and action - so it typically has to be chosen BEFORE combat starts. Example:

Heavy Salvo: Action: Your equipped secondary weapons that require a target lock to fire, may fire without a target lock this turn. After you attack a ship with a secondary weapon, you may then perform an extra attack with a secondary weapon. Do not attack next turn. If you take a face-up damage card at any time, flip this card over. Modifcation - Cost 4.

This way you run the risk of wasting the salvo if you destroy the ship before firing your second shot. This Heavy Salvo is also delicate, so if take any crits, it ruins your potential to fire. True glass cannon build here.

I don't know; it still seems like way too many points for what you get. You could buy a whole new ship for the kind of points you'll be spending on this fix, and there's no guarantee it'll even do damage.

One of the fundamental problems with most ordnance is the requirement of a target lock to fire. This means that you need to be in range of your target after your movement to get the TL, which is not a given for the first engagement, especially for low-PS pilots. If you miss the first-round TL opportunity, you can expect to be focus-fired down with extreme prejudice. Even if you do pull the target lock on the first pass, you need to survive to your PS step to fire, which is not a given for low PS guys, especially when you've loaded them full of points.

To make this fix work, it would need to be on high-PS ships. There, it may do OK, but the high point cost of the fix is probably still prohibitive. I think 'can it kill a decimator in one round?' is the wrong price metric to be using for any ordnance fix. You need to be thinking about average damage output, not idealized damage output, and you need to consider all the likely scenarios, not a milk run against a fat target.

I think that making ordnance more of a glass cannon is the wrong move. This fix would end up being a liability rather than an asset in too many games.

Yeah, if that modification I posted actually was released I would fear the same thing as well. I think there would be a lot of small ships going in for the double tap. You could also make it unique though, like experimental interface. This would prevent it from being swarmed out.

Honestly I just like any of these ideas for multiple shots because it encourages the use of ordinance.

I like your idea for Heavy Salvo. It seems balanced, but an action and four points to pull it off seems costly, in addition to the fragility and the not attacking the next round. Definitely not like Corran, so no worries there. There are a lot of negatives to the card, but you get a lot for it. It does help lower PS ships get their munitions off, which is a big problem.

Firing two Proton Torpedoes in a single round seems like a cool idea...and if it takes your action to not have to use the TL you still get that particular focus modification. Or if you are firing ion pulse or homing missiles you still get to have your TL (if you had one from a previous turn) for modification. In the case of B-wings, you could even FCS the second ordinance attack to get more modification from it.

If you added a stress mechanic instead of the crit fragility (isn't there already a crit that makes you discard secondary weapons?) Keyan Farlander would be having a nice day...

Here is another idea, something along the lines of what I've read here on the forums in the past:

Heavy Load Out - 2 points - Decrease your agility by one, to a minimum of 0. Once per turn when attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack, you may choose to discard it and instead perform this attack twice. Then flip this card face down and receive one stress.

Drawback up front until you get off your ordinance. Get a one time use out of it. Drawback of Stress so you cannot just K-turn and keep firing with the primary weapons. I believe it is appropriately costed to make it workable with existing munitions. Essentially turns any munitions into a cluster missile. Proton rockets are hindered by the drawback, so there will be no 10 dice attacks going on. It still requires a TL or focus to activate the munitions to begin with.

Baba, from Crabbok's wording it looks like you wouldn't need that TL for either munitions to fire off...but you are correct in that they could get focus fired down. I guess the rebels with this would be a bit stronger with Biggs.

Also, you could consider what that specific card could do on a Y-Wing.

You could have:

Gold Squadron Pilot + R3-A2 + Flechette Torpedo + Flechette Torpedo + Heavy Salvo (28 points)

Capable of quad stressing a target with lower hull value in one turn...that is pretty brutal...unless the target is considered already 'declared' and R3 doesn't trigger twice.

Anyway, many of these modifications will make a ship your opponents primary target. A good friend I play with has told me before that he will target any ordinance carrier first just because they are more points than normal. So they will be targets either way, unless you have something more threatening in your list.

The same goes for things like Scyks with HLCs or Airen Cracken with Swarm Tactics who is feeding actions/pilot skiills to other ships. Your opponent will always want to focus them down first. The trick is to give them hard choices to make. Pick your poison, as my friend would say.

Pressing on, sort of related to this topic. What if a future pilot (probably a bomber) had a pilot ability similar to this?:

"When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it, you may choose not to discard it". Maybe on a PS 8 Bomber with an EPT, or a nice mid range Bomber at PS 5, appropriately costed.

I guess this could even be a modification to go on anything, giving you more mileage out of your ordinance. Maybe 2 points?

If it's alright with you all, I'm going to keep reading and just drop brain storm ideas around. Nothing I drop is intended for play just thought experiment. I full well expect them all to have a list of problems so just let them inspire you, don't bother critiquing them.

Slaved targeting-modification

You may use a friendly ships target lock when firing torpedo or missile weapons.

Hot shot tracking-weapon mod

You may fire the modified missile or torpedo at targets outside your fitting arc

TIE/Bomber 4-series - title

You may add one fire power to missiles and torpedo's you fire.

Automated firing/hair trigger - mod

Immediately before you reveal your dial, you may perform an attack with an equipped torpedo or missile.

Fire linked- sensor/mod

After performing a primary weapon attack you may fire a equipped torpedo or missile

P3-T3 "Pete" -Astromech

immediately after acquiring a target lock you may use it to fire a torpedo equipped. Reduce the targets agility by one for this attack.

Launchers -hard point

You gain 3 torpedo or missile slots. Firepower 'X', range 'X' energy 2 to fire.

This weapons attributes are drawn from the firing torpedo or missile card.

Wow, that was a refreshing brain storm.

Like I said, don't critique those. I'll come back to them later.

One thing I think this brain storm taught me is that a fix to ordinance should, maybe must, come on the basis of how each individual ship interacts with it. Since fixing unilaterally will create breakage, and errata is not an option for many reasons, I think it's just going to have to be something we do on a one for one basis. I.e. xwings want to do this with it here's an update for them, x and yes both could do this so this is what they do, imps like this kind of thing, scum work like this so will have this type of upgrade more often so they can do that, so on and so forth.

Oh god. I just pictured Major Rhymer with this mod, loaded with two Cluster Missiles and a pair of Proton Torpedoes. That's 20 attack dice.

And if he's next to Jonus, he gets rerolls.

That's kind of disgusting. You can possibly one-shot any large-based ship, depending on crits.

Let's say there is a 2 point missile that allows you an attack at R1-2 with three dice. Is this a good deal or not? Now lets say there is a 1 point modification that allows to attack with a second missile for free after that first missile. Ok, not putting all of this together you end up with the Cluster Missile although that missile just requires one missile slot instead of two and the modification slot.

I guess the alternative view would be a 3 attack R1-2 missile should only cost a single point and the multi-attack modification could cost 3 points.

Oh god. I just pictured Major Rhymer with this mod, loaded with two Cluster Missiles and a pair of Proton Torpedoes. That's 20 attack dice.

And if he's next to Jonus, he gets rerolls.

That's kind of disgusting. You can possibly one-shot any large-based ship, depending on crits.

Make him Ruthless Rhymer and get some splash damage on those double cluster missiles?

Yeah, a lot of these mods we are suggesting are just to get ideas flowing. They definitely would have to have a balance/sanity check before being officially implemented.

ForceSensitive, I think you are on track with how the actual fixes might need to be implemented. A one by one look would be necessary for balance purposes. A flat out modification would have be heavily play tested to ensure it wouldn't be broken.

I believe they are already doing this with the latest wave of Scum. Look at Drea Renthal, Guri, and Kaa'to. Drea's ability along with R4-B11 is going to be utterly devastating with two proton torpedoes. Yes, she is costly at 38 points with an ion turret, but there is definite power there and a purpose for proton torpedoes. Guri makes Advanced Proton Torpedoes happen by getting a free focus within range one of an enemy ship. Perfect set up there. Kaa'to can steal a focus from a friendly ship to fire off proton rockets after taking a TL action for full modification of his 4 dice attack.

I think FFG is doing a good job of designing new content to make munitions more viable...not it is just a matter of getting them to be main stream. I think there is a stigma against using them right now, so people are hesitant.

Corran could use his ability to shoot twice with his primary weapon and then in the same turn, use the torpedoes as his third attack.

I think the only problem is that Corran Horn's ability might become drowned out, and feel less unique.

Someone mentioned that nera would like this, but you guys forgot about Keyan. He could barrel roll, PTL target lock, stress, fire, remove stress, reacquire target lock, stress, fire again, remove stress.

That's an alpha-assassin.

Control options this adds:

Flechette + Flechette for instant double stress.

Flechette + Ion Pulse Missile.

Though, I'd this hasn't been mentioned, this would be an edge case that may put double ordnance over the top:

Assault Missile + Assault Missile

Double splash DOES seem sort of amazing.

If we were to have a double firing mechanic, I think it makes the most sense for the Bomber, or ships that have 2 Ordnance slots. I think the best idea would basically be a BTL-A4 title for Bombers that costs 1-2 pts. After you perform a primary Attack you may perform an attack with a <missile> or <torpedo> that requires a TL to use without requiring the TL.

Heck, based on FFG making this change for Y Wings (which was unexpected) I totally think FFG would make a title like this.

Well put a cap of each target can only be hit once in place. Yes it removes the double tap but you could in theory hit every ship on the board in one round. That more in line with the video.

Yeah, the capability to fire a flechette torpedo AND an ion pulse missile in the same turn is very interesting... I do not think it is broken though because only a few ships can equip both torpedoes and missiles. This combo is also available already through something like R3-A2 and Ion Cannon Turret.

The most dangerous thing firing two munitions in one turn would do is the combo with R3-A2, because you could quad stress your opponent (provided their hull value fulfills the requirements for flechette torpedoes). Anyway, we are not here to discuss if they should allow this or not in the future, but if they DID allow it, how would it be implemented? Good discussion though because if they implemented it, it would have to be balanced.

Here's something I just thought if in light of FFG's comments about the next wave.

How about a bomber title that lets you fire munitions when you drop a bomb?

TIE Bomber Title - 0 Points - You gain one extra bomb slot. When you would deploy a bomb you may immediately execute an attack with an equipped secondary weapon.

I like the bomber title mentioned by Force Sensitive that increases ordinance attack power. Definitely makes them unique and makes the ordinance more appropriately costed. I wouldn't be surprised if the TIE Bomber got a TIE Bomber only bomb or other ordinance.

To go somewhat off topic for a minute, I'm not sure if they will implement a munitions correction for lower PS ships to carry missiles. I really think the primary purpose for the way PS works is because of ordinance and how you are at an advantage with a higher PS ship on that opening joust. There are already ways to get locks on lower PS ships, and that's with Squad Leader on a higher PS ship. Imperials also have Fleet Officer and rebels have Dutch and Cracken. If you want a generic ship to fire at a higher PS you can use Roark for rebels or Swarm Tactics. We have the tools, but people will complain that is just more points wasted JUST to get munitions off, so munitions need to be worthwhile.

Just to add the way it is worded it would also be usable by a Firespray-31 with the Slave-1 title.

And give you an ion and stress token after the attack because you know...

overheating.