You are right but most Defender Lovers agree that it should of had four attacks, so my fix works... for me and others who play at home and have tons of fun.

I don't. I much prefer it as a powerful fighter-bomber than the God Of All Dogfighters it was before it got toned down repeatedly.

You are right but most Defender Lovers agree that it should of had four attacks, so my fix works... for me and others who play at home and have tons of fun.

I don't. I much prefer it as a powerful fighter-bomber than the God Of All Dogfighters it was before it got toned down repeatedly.

Yeah like I have said before it is kind of the Imperial B-Wing, and that is cool with me.

What say you?

"Evade isn't that much better than focus."

Soontir would like to have a word with you about tokens.

They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead. Compare a 35-point Soontir to a base Vessery. Does anyone really think that they're both worth the same. How about 44-point whisper? Does any build of any defender get you the same efficiency, survivability and damage? Not a chance. Not at any cost. They just aren't very good.

Some people can do well with them, but that's primarily due to their opponent not being used to facing one.

Surprise is part of their advantage in the current state of the game, but they do have something else going for them. Whisper, and to a lesser degree Soontir are countered hard when they're countered. Get a block off on Soontir or hand him a stress, leaving him with no actions? Probably a dead Baron. Does someone have a PS10 turret or control ship? Whisper goes down really fast. Does Vader Crew get popular on Decimators? Both Soontir and any Phantom will have to be pretty careful. Defenders, thanks to their native AGI 3 and 6 hit points require you to beat them the old-fashioned way. They don't present the raw possibility of maneuver and damage that Whisper and Soontir do, but they'll do a lot of damage, and they won't go down quickly.

A note on Rexler, since I've played him quite a bit. I don't think he's overpriced at all compared to the Deltas. The same 7 points that an X-wing, B-wing, or Interceptor pays for +7 PS is a better buy on a Defender, because it's the advantage is leveraging a comparatively more capable ship. Throw in the fact that is pilot ability isn't an extra point on top of the standard +1 point per PS, and I think he's a pretty legitimate choice.

I wonder if it'd be overpriced if there was no red on the dial whatsoever.

Yes.

Of course - because your jousting stats ignore insignificant little details like "dials".

You are right but most Defender Lovers agree that it should of had four attacks, so my fix works... for me and others who play at home and have tons of fun.

I don't. I much prefer it as a powerful fighter-bomber than the God Of All Dogfighters it was before it got toned down repeatedly.

Yeah like I have said before it is kind of the Imperial B-Wing, and that is cool with me.

What say you?

It's a parallel in Empire at War, very different beast in X-wing. The B-wing's slow, the Defender is lightning fast. It doesn't handle like an interceptor but it's no space pig like the Y-wing.

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The dial is actually pretty permissive, but I think it's easy to feel restricted by only straight greens. Defender's have a lot of options while under stress, so the 1 and 2 hards are often not bad options if you want to fly less predictably. Often I find the best maneuver is to disengage the defender for a turn, but losing it's firepower for a turn is a pretty steep opportunity cost in a match.

It's funny, but adrenaline rush is my top pick for an EPT on these guys because it makes that dial one of the better dials in the game for a turn.

The defender is also very dependent on the list it's in. To make the most of it's abilities there are obvious choices that just add to the cost of an already expensive ship.

• Want HLC generics? Get Jonus.
• Want Vessery? Get target locking ships, preferably high PS. For imperials this is especially restrictive.
• Want Brath? Get a ship that can carry a FO. His being expensive and his ability being so situational makes this inefficient, but Defenders do love free actions/tokens.

With the Defender being so expensive this is probably the worst part about trying to fit it into a list that is competitive.

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The same is true for practically every other ship in the game.

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The same is true for practically every other ship in the game.

In this regard the Defender is exceptional...!

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The same is true for practically every other ship in the game.

The phantom and the defender compete for points in the same faction so it's a bit more relevant to make the comparison here, especially when they came out in the same wave.

I do agree with you though.

I honestly think a title that allows it to fire both it's primary and a cannon (like the new Y-wing title) is the answer.

Two attacks every turn? Against a Decimator, that's effectively the game's first seven dice ship (various fragile rebel combos nonwithstanding), and splitting it over two agility rolls doesn't hamper it that much when you're throwing that much firepower around.

BTL-A4 works on the Y-wing because the Y-wing primary attack is a 2 dice attack and because BTL-A4 is not a free upgrade. You don't pay for it on the card itself, the cost comes from the turret. Turrets pay extra for that 360 arc and your forward only turret costs exactly the same as a 360 one.

Same goes for the Defender too... you'd still have to spend points on the cannon.

The Ion cannon fits the lore of this ship, of course. I wouldn't mind seeing a Title card that allowed the Defender to shoot an equipped cannon if the first attack missed.

"They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead." Your point being? I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise.

The Defender by itself is fine in a vacuum, but when you look at the rest of the Imperial line, it can be really hard to justify taking one in your squad. It will get even worse when the Raider hits and the Imps get a solid front line fighter in the ATC-Advanced. Its not really going to do anything better than what the Advanced can do for cheaper. Its only trick is the white K-turn and that it can carry a cannon.

All you have to do with your Advanced is evade 1 time and you have the same durability as the Defender.

There is just too many other options to choose for Imperials in the 30 points bracket and most of them are going to likely be more effective then the Defender. But now we can get a Defender like craft for way, way cheaper.

Tempest Sqd. with ATC is only 22 points. Hell, throw on a SU(or even boost) and you are only at 26 points, this gives you an almost identical stat line. You don't get the White-k turn or the hard 1 maneuver but Is the white K-turn really worth 4 points? Especially when you factor in that you lose the Evade action, your 2-turn becomes red, you are down 1 PS, and you lose those green banks. I much rather have the green banks than the green 4 and 5 straight.

I know I am not going to be fielding any Defender's unless its Vessery (and he'll be paired with x1s) when the Raider hits. I just can't justify the ship over the Advanced. It makes me sad as the Defender is one of my favorite ships.

I honestly think a title that allows it to fire both it's primary and a cannon (like the new Y-wing title) is the answer.

Two attacks every turn? Against a Decimator, that's effectively the game's first seven dice ship (various fragile rebel combos nonwithstanding), and splitting it over two agility rolls doesn't hamper it that much when you're throwing that much firepower around.

BTL-A4 works on the Y-wing because the Y-wing primary attack is a 2 dice attack and because BTL-A4 is not a free upgrade. You don't pay for it on the card itself, the cost comes from the turret. Turrets pay extra for that 360 arc and your forward only turret costs exactly the same as a 360 one.

Same goes for the Defender too... you'd still have to spend points on the cannon.

The Ion cannon fits the lore of this ship, of course. I wouldn't mind seeing a Title card that allowed the Defender to shoot an equipped cannon if the first attack missed.

No, no, not what I meant at all. A cannon only pays for its attack. A turret pays for its attack and pays for a 360 arc. BTL-A4 takes 75% of that arc away but it still pays for the 360.

Tempest Sqd. with ATC is only 22 points.

Advanced Targeting Computer has an activation condition, and thus is completely overestimated by mathematical models, especially on low PS pilots like Tempest that struggle to trigger it. Tempest Squadron Pilot is PS2 and thus will have a hard time keeping that lock on its target. If it fails to stay on the same target its action will be spent constantly target locking, which means no defensive actions or offesnive focus. Assuming it gets a lock at all.

It's why Accuracy Corrector tends to be favoured on generic Advanceds. With guaranteed max damage, the actions are spent on defense and maneuver.

Given they'll never have to spend their target locks either, they're actually a great pairing with Vessery.

You are right but most Defender Lovers agree that it should of had four attacks, so my fix works... for me and others who play at home and have tons of fun.

I don't. I much prefer it as a powerful fighter-bomber than the God Of All Dogfighters it was before it got toned down repeatedly.

Yeah like I have said before it is kind of the Imperial B-Wing, and that is cool with me.

What say you?

It's a parallel in Empire at War, very different beast in X-wing. The B-wing's slow, the Defender is lightning fast. It doesn't handle like an interceptor but it's no space pig like the Y-wing.

I like to use them as border patrol, and they will be great with the Raider too I think.

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The same is true for practically every other ship in the game.

:lol:

I honestly think a title that allows it to fire both it's primary and a cannon (like the new Y-wing title) is the answer.

Two attacks every turn? Against a Decimator, that's effectively the game's first seven dice ship (various fragile rebel combos nonwithstanding), and splitting it over two agility rolls doesn't hamper it that much when you're throwing that much firepower around.

BTL-A4 works on the Y-wing because the Y-wing primary attack is a 2 dice attack and because BTL-A4 is not a free upgrade. You don't pay for it on the card itself, the cost comes from the turret. Turrets pay extra for that 360 arc and your forward only turret costs exactly the same as a 360 one.

Same goes for the Defender too... you'd still have to spend points on the cannon.

The Ion cannon fits the lore of this ship, of course. I wouldn't mind seeing a Title card that allowed the Defender to shoot an equipped cannon if the first attack missed.

No, no, not what I meant at all. A cannon only pays for its attack. A turret pays for its attack and pays for a 360 arc. BTL-A4 takes 75% of that arc away but it still pays for the 360.

And the fact that the Defender is overpriced balances that out.

Honestly, the base Defender should have been closer to 25 points.

I appreciate everyone's input. I also agree that as someone who still plays TIE Fighter on a regular basis I was hoping the Defender would be the king of dogfighters that it was in the canon. Or old canon now. It was intended to be THE space superiority fighter at the time and yet the version we have does not fit.

That does not make it a bad ship. It is just different from what we expected.

The one suggestion I've seen that sounds the best solution to make it a more desirable ship is a Sienar Refit to lower the cost for the ship. I also wish it had native boost or a more forgiving dial but the main problem with it IMO is the cost.

The defender isn't bad, but when compared to the phantom you just get a lot less for the points spent.

The same is true for practically every other ship in the game.

In this regard the Defender is exceptional...!

it really isn't

The delta defender is far cheaper even with an ion/flechette than a named phantom

while whisper is stupid crazy, it's also very vulnerable to select counters that defenders are not thanks to a higher health pool and no dependency on cloaks

"They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead." Your point being? I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise.

no, he's quite correct. You focus fire on any of these ships and they're gone. Not to mention the that E-wing is exactly as easy to hit as the defender, if not easier especially if you're sticking to greens for r2-d2.

Defenders are also not easy to reliably land hits unless you're relying solely on the white k, in which case the defender is indeed doing it wrong. With ion or stress, you can set your dial face-up and your opponent will still have no choice but to take it up the butt.

Not to mention the advantage of PS 1: blocking like a boss.

"You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise."

The Defender can arc dodge... I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Defender has a barrel roll. It's also difficult to see how you concluded that the Defender is a ship that you can so easily land reliable hits on. It has a focus, a nice k-turn, and three agility. You also state a white K is not a surprise, but that is completely wrong headed because, unless your playing an opponent with ESP, your maneuvers are chosen in secret, so your opponent cannot, with certainty, know where you will be. Ergo, it CAN be a surprise. And the success of a Defender is, in large part, dictated by the player's choices and not "just math."

"You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise."

The Defender can arc dodge... I'm not sure if you're aware, but the Defender has a barrel roll. It's also difficult to see how you concluded that the Defender is a ship that you can so easily land reliable hits on. It has a focus, a nice k-turn, and three agility. You also state a white K is not a surprise, but that is completely wrong headed because, unless your playing an opponent with ESP, your maneuvers are chosen in secret, so your opponent cannot, with certainty, know where you will be. Ergo, it CAN be a surprise. And the success of a Defender is, in large part, dictated by the player's choices and not "just math."

you know what's also fun? Being able to barrel-roll after a k-turn. Hilarious

"They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead." Your point being? I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise.

no, he's quite correct. You focus fire on any of these ships and they're gone. Not to mention the that E-wing is exactly as easy to hit as the defender, if not easier especially if you're sticking to greens for r2-d2.

Defenders are also not easy to reliably land hits unless you're relying solely on the white k, in which case the defender is indeed doing it wrong. With ion or stress, you can set your dial face-up and your opponent will still have no choice but to take it up the butt.

Not to mention the advantage of PS 1: blocking like a boss.

This is important to note, although truer with Rexler due to his high PS. The Defender is not a classic arc dodger (little in the way of after-movement options), but it's dial has a lot of displacement on it (it's fast), which means it can get out of arcs with the correct move. This has a lot of ramifications for your opponent's planning. After an approach, a Defender can K-turn, or make a 3-bank or 3-turn, in either direction, to disengage. Because of the displacement allowed by the dial, a single ship can usually only cover a small portion of the Defender's options. Throw in the native Barrel Roll, and they're tough to engage.

Tempest Sqd. with ATC is only 22 points.

Advanced Targeting Computer has an activation condition, and thus is completely overestimated by mathematical models, especially on low PS pilots like Tempest that struggle to trigger it. Tempest Squadron Pilot is PS2 and thus will have a hard time keeping that lock on its target. If it fails to stay on the same target its action will be spent constantly target locking, which means no defensive actions or offesnive focus. Assuming it gets a lock at all.

It's why Accuracy Corrector tends to be favoured on generic Advanceds. With guaranteed max damage, the actions are spent on defense and maneuver.

Given they'll never have to spend their target locks either, they're actually a great pairing with Vessery.

Yeah, the ATC will be harder to maintain with your standard Tempest. It is really going to depend on your local meta. If large ships with a bunch of health are used often, the ATC will shine. You'll be able to keep your TL on the large ship and burn it down, then move on to the next. Decimators will hate facing ATC toting Advanceds. However, against list with multiple small based ships, AC is the safer bet. I don't hate FCS either. Especially if you pack a Cluster Missile. You can pull off 2, 3 dice attacks with modifiers. Its essentially a Corran Horn double tap for a turn.

Vessery will be awesome with a squad of Advances in tow. I think he'll be the only pilot that is going to be taken regularly. Kind of like Horn is with the E-wing.

I wonder if it'd be overpriced if there was no red on the dial whatsoever.

Yes.

As much I appreciate MJ's number crunching on math wing I don't use it as the sole judgement value for how good or bad a ship is because anyone will tell you a good game has intangible variables. Even Maj Juggler will admit that he isn't too sure about the value of the white K-turn in the jousting calculation.

Incidentally we are covering Imperials wave 4 tomorrow for NOVA Squadron Radio #21, which should air early next week. So stay tuned...

It would be neat if you DO NOT drag and drone on for thirty minutes with your incredibly boring math.

It fixes nothing, absolutely nothing at all.

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. The episodes run long, but even if you add up all the Math discussion it is still certainly less than 30 minutes. That said, I'll take it into consideration. But I also take into consideration that for every comment I get like yours, I get about 20 more that say "keep up talking about math". So you are rather out-voted by a wide margin.

There are also plenty of other X-wing podcasts that don't go through "the math".

Sure, most everyone agrees now, but what about before the ship was released? The designers and playtesters would presumably have disagreed initially, unless it was their intent to release an overcosted ship. (unlikely)

It was exactly by "putting a number on them", that the math predicted that the Defender was overcosted before it was released, and almost certainly before the designers realized it themselves.

Therefore I personally think that those numbers are useful. But it is also not my job to convince anyone, so, carry on!

I wonder if it'd be overpriced if there was no red on the dial whatsoever.

Yes.

Of course - because your jousting stats ignore insignificant little details like "dials".

There is a reason why it is overpriced, and it is buried in the MathWing thread. A complete analysis consists of far more than just jousting stats. Most people only quote the jousting stats, and some presume that is where my analysis ends, but that is a misunderstanding. Relating the dial back to a ship's overall value is not black magic, there are underlying mathematics that relate the two. I'll elaborate in episode #21.

I like to use them as border patrol, and they will be great with the Raider too I think.

The Defender benefits from anything that buffs its action economy, so Coordinate'll be a boon, especially as the Raider always moves last.

The thing about the TIE defender is, as I said before, that it is not a straightfoward ship. People's opinions of it will vary wildly depending on how they flew it or how it was flown.

The way I look at it is your model puts the Defender as behind on jousting efficiency, which means it has to make that up in other ways. How good it is is then a measure of how well it can make up for that in the hands of a skilled player and that's pretty much impossible to quantify because you can only apply maths to the combat phase, which is only half the game.

In addition, can you really use tournaments as confirmation of predictions when:

1. A list entered several times into a tournament simply because there are more of them. If half the lists are Fat Hans a Fat Han winning is more likely than say a phantom list with a single entrant.

2. The people going to tournaments read your predictions. If you say a ship sucks and you're not wildly off the mark, its use will decline.

3. The previous two combined. If MajorJuggler says a ship is the new hotness, it's going to be everywhere soon enough, and the more entrants a ship gets the better its chances.

It's a useful model but as Alex Davy said it's not the whole picture. To me it's a tool rather than a ranking and definitely not a predictor. It doesn't tell you which ships are "best" but tells you how strong their hulls are and how powerful their weapons are mathematically, allowing you to make better gameplay decisions.

Relating the dial back to a ship's overall value is not black magic, there are underlying mathematics that relate the two.

And if it involves trying to put a value to a maneuver it's as flawed as when people tried to find the cost of a hull point. The value of a maneuver is a combination of psychological effects that can't be quantified, the rest of the dial, the rest of the list, the opposing list, and it's certainly not consistent from ship to ship.

"They just don't have the ability to stay alive if your opponent wants them dead." Your point being? I could say the same about EVERY ship in the game.

You'd be wrong. Soontir can arc dodge. Whisper can arc dodge. Han can arc dodge. Corran can arc dodge and regen. Dash can arc dodge. There isn't another ship as expensive as the defenders that makes it so easy to reliably land hits. If any of the main string closers dies to a Bwing in the late game, no matter how beat up they are going into it, then they've screwed up. If rexlar or Vessery do, it's probably just math.

A white K is not a surprise. Choosing where to decloak or where to boost or barrel roll with a large base is a surprise.

no, he's quite correct. You focus fire on any of these ships and they're gone. Not to mention the that E-wing is exactly as easy to hit as the defender, if not easier especially if you're sticking to greens for r2-d2.

Defenders are also not easy to reliably land hits unless you're relying solely on the white k, in which case the defender is indeed doing it wrong. With ion or stress, you can set your dial face-up and your opponent will still have no choice but to take it up the butt.

Not to mention the advantage of PS 1: blocking like a boss.

This is important to note, although truer with Rexler due to his high PS. The Defender is not a classic arc dodger (little in the way of after-movement options), but it's dial has a lot of displacement on it (it's fast), which means it can get out of arcs with the correct move. This has a lot of ramifications for your opponent's planning. After an approach, a Defender can K-turn, or make a 3-bank or 3-turn, in either direction, to disengage. Because of the displacement allowed by the dial, a single ship can usually only cover a small portion of the Defender's options. Throw in the native Barrel Roll, and they're tough to engage.

too true, the raw speed on that little thing is a huge point to make

it's actually an interesting parallel to the aggressor and why I've found that Deltas have such a favorable match-up against them. One on one, you can't catch an aggressor because it's too bloody fast (although, unlike turrets, it can't shoot you if it's running with its tail between its legs ), but you can force one to **** off with flechette cannons or raw damage and then effortlessly switch around to double team the other aggressor while its buddy is too busy running to contribute any irepower