Here at Boss Central we fixed it with Quad Blaster Links tied into an Advanced Targeting Computer. There are also some titles for 'em, so in my crazy Epic games Defenders are, well... Badass-Emperial B-Wings... kinda.

Off the top of my head, I'm having trouble thinking of a worse idea than allowing Advanced Targeting Computer on ships other than the TIE Advanced.

With the exception of Glorious B-Wings, the all Mighty TIE Defender has the most guns on it that alone means it should do more damage than any other Small Ship.

I agree that the damage output of the Defender should be increased. I honestly think a title that allows it to fire both it's primary and a cannon (like the new Y-wing title) is the answer.

DAT!

What I have been doing is allowing the Advanced Targeting Critt with a re-roll of all blank results first.

This is a free upgrade of course, cause the whole point is to address the high points cost.

The new (been doing this for a year) Titles Fix concept is a grand way to make all ships kinda perfect.

I think things would be very different if they gave the Phantom 3 red dice and the Defender 4. I would like that game much better.

I agree, from day-one when I saw the cards for Wave Four I was like; "Well they got it half right... "

The Z-95 is still the best thing to come out of that set, if played as written.

Mechanically, if you want more damage, you're free to equip a cannon. Stone37's idea isn't a bad one, either, although I might quibble with the implementation. But the Advanced Targeting computer was designed as a patch for a ship that was woefully underpowered on the offense side. The Defender didn't start in the same place--it's underpowered, but to a lesser extent and for different reasons--so granting it access to that particular upgrade is a serious threat to game balance.

Nah, you are just giving it a built-in Mangler Cannon... kinda, and for a whole lot more points.

It has three twin linked cannons and twin missile launchers. It pretty much is one and a half Interceptors, and double TIE Phantoms. FFG got to excited with the whole cloak thing, and The Almighty Defender suffered unjustly for their Phantom exuberance.

Not happening on my watch... not in this Game Parlor!

The other option would be something that increased its survivability, making it a bigger threat late game if left unchecked. Maybe something like:

Engine to shield converter (2 points upgrade modification, tie defender only)

"When performing a green maneuver, you may instead treat it as a white maneuver. If you do, you may recover one shield."

Things I like about the Defender:

IMO it is the single best looking model in the entire range bar none

The dial - sure it's a challenge to fly but that's part of the fun - if only the very best Imperial pilots could fly them effectively, then perhaps that should translate to XWM players too. (which might go some way to explain why I have yet to experience much success with them)

Cannons - I mean, what's not to like about a cannon?

Things I don't like about the Defender:

The cost

The rather so-so pilot abilities that generally force you to spend even more points to be effective.

The cost

So, short of a straight up 2-3 point negative point upgrade (Sienar Refit anyone?) I'd be really interested to hear suggestions for "fixes" and new pilot abilities.

One thing I really like the sound of is the canonical ability to twin-link primary blaster fire with an ion cannon attack. But that's kind of already been done with the BTL-A4 title, so it would need to distinguish itself from that in some way - plus it might be a little OP on a 3 dice native attack ship.

Perhaps a simple 1 point upgrade that sits in the cannon slot which goes something like:

"If you perform an attack that hits, place 1 ion token on the defender, then resolve damage as normal."

Edit - typical - loads of suggestions come in while I'm typing

The other option would be something that increased its survivability, making it a bigger threat late game if left unchecked. Maybe something like:

Engine to shield converter (2 points upgrade modification, tie defender only)

"When performing a green maneuver, you may instead treat it as a white maneuver. If you do, you may recover one shield."

Trouble maker...

A lot of the issues with acceptance of the Defender is that it flies against conventional wisdom. Yes, it isn't a great ship if you believe that you MUST make green maneuvers if you gain stress. Yes, it isn't great if you feel K-turns are too predictable. Yes, it isn't great if you value making multiple 1-2 turn maneuvers in a row. But, being able to K-turn while stressed is a very potent ability.

Everyone is trying to fit it into conventional wisdom, where it doesn't fit. The uniques are very good. And the PS 1 can be quite nasty. Sure, it may not be a gatekeeper in the meta. But, not everything can be. It is okay to have some ships that remain more fun than competitive.

Interestingly enough, the TIE defender is actually a very good jousting ship. In my experience, it handles swarms quite effectively. For example, 2 Deltas beat 3 B-wings or 4/5 TIE fighters in a straight up joust (I don't know what the math says, but that's been my experience, ymmv and all).

However, I do think they are a bit overcosted. I agree with Funkleton that a simple point reduction is all they really need. Although to make it sightly different than chardaan refit, I would like to see it be a 1 point title that lets you equip an ion cannon for free. This would be fluffy (since its supposed to have an ion cannon standard) and you only get the discount if you equip an ion. Some people might not like that because its limiting, so it could be changed to something like the advanced title where the card itself is free but knocks x points off a cannon upgrade (2 or 3 would probably do it).

It has three twin linked cannons

The top two are ion cannons. Don't believe me? Look at your Delta Squadron Pilot card.

With the exception of Glorious B-Wings, the all Mighty TIE Defender has the most guns on it that alone means it should do more damage than any other Small Ship.

Oh dear JBR7, you just said it.

You said words to the effect of Attack Dice = k(gun barrels).

...

...

FIRE LE EXCEL!

Gaze upon that glorious R². It goes from 0 to 1 and is a measure of linear correlation. It's gone slightly negative, which means it's actually more likely that more guns means less firepower. If we axe the HWK it only jumps to 0.2996, which is still terrible.

Firepower and attack dice being related? Sure, but gun barrels? Pick up an Outrider. You could fit every gun the phantom has in those guns. Four times.

I would like to see it be a 1 point title that lets you equip an ion cannon for free.

The Cannon slot's the Defender's greatest asset. A cannon reduction I could see, but forcing it into Ion... it's a long range ship. It needs that HLC and Mangler goodness.

That's a common self-delusion. You do not fly a ship as you desire. Saying that you fly it 'better' because you fly it a like a bomber is a delusion. You fly a ship as its dial allows you, not viceversa. Flying better or worse is choosing the appropiate maneuver from the ones you have available, according to the battlefield status.

And the Defender can perform all the maneuvers that a interceptor can, so it CAN fly like an interceptor. But it is deliberately punished for doing so, so it's one of its built-in drawbacks.

Does the ship fly itself? If not, you've got a choice of how to fly it. The dial does not dictate your maneveur, it gives you options. You have options, and its your choice which options you take. Which options do I take? The ones, as you put it, that "I desire."

There is rarely a single "optimum maneuver", there are multiple viable options. Even when one maneuver seems blindlingly obvious it's a bad choice because the opponent will anticipate it. As I said, the white K-turn's advantage is not its use but its existence. The Defender could whip around like that at any moment, and the opponent has to be ready for that. It's like Palob: he's still doing his job even if his ability never triggers.

As for the Defender being able to fly like an interceptor, it can't pull all the maneuvers an Interceptor can because colour is an integral part of a maneuver. The interceptor pulls the sharp turn then boost/barrels from there to the optimum position. The 2's green so it can do this over and over and over. The defender just sits there with a stress token looking sorry for itself. The 1-turn or 2-turn is a good option for the TIE interceptor but given the colour of the maneuver and the rest of its dial

However, where it lacks in the dogfight it can handle engage/disengage k-turn pretty well. Try playing that game over and over with a TIE interceptor and you'll get a load of stress tokens and a laser bolt through your ball cockpit.

Again, if you're taking those red turns and dying to stress then those turns are not "the appropriate maneuver." They're a bad choice. They're there, but their value is almost surprise only. The Defender is much better off banking or 3-turning out of that situation and k-turning around than losing its action this turn and either losing it again or being forced into a disasterous straight the next.

All this doesn't contradict what I said.

A lot of the issues with acceptance of the Defender is that it flies against conventional wisdom. Yes, it isn't a great ship if you believe that you MUST make green maneuvers if you gain stress. Yes, it isn't great if you feel K-turns are too predictable. Yes, it isn't great if you value making multiple 1-2 turn maneuvers in a row. But, being able to K-turn while stressed is a very potent ability.

Everyone is trying to fit it into conventional wisdom, where it doesn't fit. The uniques are very good. And the PS 1 can be quite nasty. Sure, it may not be a gatekeeper in the meta. But, not everything can be. It is okay to have some ships that remain more fun than competitive.

No one says that the white K-turn is not a nice ability. Only that it is overcosted and overpunished.

My idea for a Defender fix is a title that reads something like

"When you reveal a green maneuver, you may treat that maneuver as white and rotate your ship 180 degrees; When you reveal a white maneuver, you may treat that maneuver as red and rotate your ship 180 degrees."

It would effectively give the defender the full suite of white K-turns and red S-loops. (Plus the ability to do a pointless, but undoubtedly impressive red 360.) It is, after all, supposed to be the most maneuverable starfighter.

All this doesn't contradicts what I said.

If not then I have honestly no idea what you meant, although I fail to see how replying to "you can fly it like an interceptor" with "you can't fly it like an interceptor" is somehow not a contradiction.

I notice I seem to have just stopped midsentence in that. For the record, that sentence ends: "The 1-turn or 2-turn is a good option for the TIE interceptor but given the colour of the maneuver and the rest of its dial it isn't for the TIE defender."

The Defender really doesn't need anything apart from a buff to rexlar and for the raider to hurry the **** up for Vessery

It's a very well rounded ship with a bevy of advantages (including the only small ship cannon slot in imperial and an incredibly well rounded stat-line that stacks up to the aggressor -2 health). The key to how well it performs has nothing to do with the fixes it doesn't need as much as it does with players who are willing to give it a shot

If it helps, their usability soars by leaps and bounds if you put a control (ion or flechette) cannon on them. The white 4k just becomes stupid when your opponent can't turn their ships around in response.

I don't personally like damage cannons on the generics unless you're running jonus.

Mechanically, if you want more damage, you're free to equip a cannon. Stone37's idea isn't a bad one, either, although I might quibble with the implementation. But the Advanced Targeting computer was designed as a patch for a ship that was woefully underpowered on the offense side. The Defender didn't start in the same place--it's underpowered, but to a lesser extent and for different reasons--so granting it access to that particular upgrade is a serious threat to game balance.

Nah, you are just giving it a built-in Mangler Cannon... kinda, and for a whole lot more points.

The Mangler Cannon changes a hit to a crit; the ATC adds a crit result to the dice pool. To me those are very different effects, and the ATC version is a lot more powerful.

Yeah, the ATC would be bonkers on a HLC equipped Vessory.

I don't personally like damage cannons on the generics unless you're running jonus.

bbbut range 3 mitigation

Mechanically, if you want more damage, you're free to equip a cannon. Stone37's idea isn't a bad one, either, although I might quibble with the implementation. But the Advanced Targeting computer was designed as a patch for a ship that was woefully underpowered on the offense side. The Defender didn't start in the same place--it's underpowered, but to a lesser extent and for different reasons--so granting it access to that particular upgrade is a serious threat to game balance.

Nah, you are just giving it a built-in Mangler Cannon... kinda, and for a whole lot more points.

The Mangler Cannon changes a hit to a crit; the ATC adds a crit result to the dice pool. To me those are very different effects, and the ATC version is a lot more powerful.

You are right but most Defender Lovers agree that it should of had four attacks, so my fix works... for me and others who play at home and have tons of fun.

The only people who think it should have 4 ATK are those that still want the Defender to be the Mary Sue it was in TIE Fighter.

The only people who think it should have 4 ATK are those that still want the Defender to be the Mary Sue it was in TIE Fighter.

...and it is all good!

Far, far away... from 100 point meta games.

I wonder if it'd be overpriced if there was no red on the dial whatsoever.

Yes.

As much I appreciate MJ's number crunching on math wing I don't use it as the sole judgement value for how good or bad a ship is because anyone will tell you a good game has intangible variables. Even Maj Juggler will admit that he isn't too sure about the value of the white K-turn in the jousting calculation.

Incidentally we are covering Imperials wave 4 tomorrow for NOVA Squadron Radio #21, which should air early next week. So stay tuned...

They were never going to give us the tie fighter version that would of been 50 pts with a stat line of 3366 and every move would be green.

Everyone knows my stance by now I use them most games and do well against friends, in fact I've now got six for epic games that did not thrill my friends when I told them.

It will probably get a buff because it's not seeing competitive play which will be great for its fans making a solid heavy fighter even stronger in the hands of an expert.

I'd love to see all these bleating and whining about the TIE Defender's 1-turn being red fly a ship which doesn't actually have a one-turn in the first place.

.You know, like the E-Wing, X-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced...

If you can't get where you want to be with a three turn, banks and the barrel roll action, then you should probably look at flying something a little bit more your level. You know, like a YT-2400.

Not having the option is different than having the option, but getting punished for using it.

You're absolutely right, not having the option at all is much worse.

I wonder if it'd be overpriced if there was no red on the dial whatsoever.

Yes.

As much I appreciate MJ's number crunching on math wing I don't use it as the sole judgement value for how good or bad a ship is because anyone will tell you a good game has intangible variables. Even Maj Juggler will admit that he isn't too sure about the value of the white K-turn in the jousting calculation.

Incidentally we are covering Imperials wave 4 tomorrow for NOVA Squadron Radio #21, which should air early next week. So stay tuned...

It would be neat if you DO NOT drag and drone on for thirty minutes with your incredibly boring math.

It fixes nothing, absolutely nothing at all.

We already know the ships that suck, putting a number on them is utterly useless.

Now stepping up with a fix that can be used in the game, I am all for that interesting and proactive discussion!

What everyone had said. Expensive and red maneuvers. I'm hoping FFG will come out with a tie-bomber and tie defender duo pack. Aces 2.0? They both need new pilots or a slight nudge up.

I think people underestimate them but I only use them in the following build.

Patrol leader - 40 pts.

delta sq. - 30 pts. x 2

The dial is a little rough and overdone in terms of limitations, imo. Either the red turns or the only greens being straight could have remained and the ship would have been perfectly balanced, but as is we got both.

Otherwise, apart from the morbidly overpriced Rexlar, I don't get the bad rep either. The Defender has a poor jousting value, but the white 4k makes it the best jouster since it's the only ship short of wingman EPTs that can pull of constant jousts. It can even pack an ion or flechette cannon to deny enemies jousts in the first place.

I will say they are a "whole > sum of their parts ship" and expensive points-wise, so it is understandable that one can't see their true value until they hit the table a few times and that no one would want to put them on the table in the first place.

I'd say that they're capable of being good jousters, but having no evade hurts it in this regard. Because of this I tend to use it as a sniper, a very hardy, durable, sniper. I've found that a heavy laser cannon on it is the way to go. It has the best stat line of all the tie-fighters hands down, and I've found it acceptable to do the red maneuvers if you are suitably far enough away, sometimes I follow the red with a white k-turn because you can.

I do think that it has one of the weirder movement dials, but it doesn't significantly hurt this ship. Basically a heavy laser cannon and predator will do the trick. In higher points games I'd throw on a stealth device or an engine upgrade.