Just had a VASSAL match using Rex & Whisper vs panic attack with a very good player at the helm. I got beat handily, but learned a few things. For example, I needed more time to get whisper in a good position, so I had to slow roll Rex even more. As it was I couldn't focus fire and get an early kill like I usually do (or try to). So looks like its B-wings 1 vs Defenders 0 (well for me anyway, since posting on this thread).

I watched a good part of that game. First time I've seen a Debris field Direct hit a Y off the board. Yeeeowch!

If you're running HLC you really don't need to run Prockets at all...

I'm not saying Prockets are the first 3 points I'd spend on a Defender, but HLC and Prockets literally have nothing to do with each other. One can shoot at Range 2-3, one at Range 1. Now, you might say "if you have 4 attack dice at close range, you really don't need Prockets at all", and I would probably agree with you. Sorry to nit pick. If you've got the points, though, Prockets on Rex aren't necessarily bad, it's an extra die that you might be able to use for his ability.

If you're running HLC you really don't need to run Prockets at all...

I'm not saying Prockets are the first 3 points I'd spend on a Defender, but HLC and Prockets literally have nothing to do with each other. One can shoot at Range 2-3, one at Range 1. Now, you might say "if you have 4 attack dice at close range, you really don't need Prockets at all", and I would probably agree with you. Sorry to nit pick. If you've got the points, though, Prockets on Rex aren't necessarily bad, it's an extra die that you might be able to use for his ability.

I usually slap Prockets on my Defenders for fun, but I wouldn't bother with them in metagame prepping. Edit** this is, of course, in regards to competitive play such as SC's or Regionals.

I've never seen an initiative bid that 3 points wouldn't take but 6 points would. I'd probably go with Ion Pulse Rockets, just because it's something that your opponent has to always keep in mind, because if they forget you can totally screw them. It can help chasing down big fast ships, too.

Just had a VASSAL match using Rex & Whisper vs panic attack with a very good player at the helm. I got beat handily, but learned a few things. For example, I needed more time to get whisper in a good position, so I had to slow roll Rex even more. As it was I couldn't focus fire and get an early kill like I usually do (or try to). So looks like its B-wings 1 vs Defenders 0 (well for me anyway, since posting on this thread).

I watched a good part of that game. First time I've seen a Debris field Direct hit a Y off the board. Yeeeowch!

Unfortunately, that debris cloud got more kills than any of my ships

I've never flown against panic attack before though, so I learned quite a few things. I also replayed the match and I did in fact have a move that would NOT have been blocked (but I thought it totally would've been so didn't try it). That's the thing with VASSAL -- the ranges take a bit to get used to and I noticed changing zoom is a bad thing because it messes with your sense of scale.

As for initiative bid, I've heard of the 86/87 pt phantom lists, but outside of that, I've never heard of anyone going for less than 97 pt initiative bids. I'm going to keep a missile/rocket on Brath for now unless I start seeing more lists come in less than that, but I kinda doubt it. This list is still in its 'infancy' (just 5 games with it after last night), so it certainly might change, but for now I'm going with the prockets simply because Brath likes to focus rather than TL, so as long as I can get the token I have the option. I'm also thinking that with 5 dice I have greater odds of dealing crits (or flipping up crits using brath's ability if I don't need to spend the token). Its only worked once in 5 games so far, but its devestating when it happens...

Hang on, don't proton rockets deal base atk Plus agility? A pro rocket should be dealing 6 dice from a defender, something we have never seen, unless I am very mistaken.

Hang on, don't proton rockets deal base atk Plus agility? A pro rocket should be dealing 6 dice from a defender, something we have never seen, unless I am very mistaken.

Secondary weapons don't get an extra die from being at range one. Proton rockets get an extra die for each point of agility and cap at 3 extra dice.

Hang on, don't proton rockets deal base atk Plus agility? A pro rocket should be dealing 6 dice from a defender, something we have never seen, unless I am very mistaken.

Not the ship's base attack, but instead the attack number on the card. Which for Proton Rockets is 2.

2+3 from agility is the best Proton Rockets can pull off.

Hang on, don't proton rockets deal base atk Plus agility? A pro rocket should be dealing 6 dice from a defender, something we have never seen, unless I am very mistaken.

Not the ship's base attack, but instead the attack number on the card. Which for Proton Rockets is 2.

2+3 from agility is the best Proton Rockets can pull off.

Well don't forget Opportunist+Jan Ors(pilot) you could bump it up to 6 or 7. Granted opportunist isn't my EPT of choice on a Defender there are worse options I guess but you would need something to shoot at a higher PS than Rexlar and can hit hard enough to remove tokens

I just came in here to say that I'm a casual player and I ******* love the TIE defender.

I just came in here to say that I'm a casual player and I ******* love the TIE defender.

I approve this message.

I just came in here to say that I'm a casual player and I ******* love the TIE defender.

Well hello there casual player ide like to introduce you to us competitive players who don't like the defender. Haha I'm just kidding glad you and others see the value in it and play it. It just collects dust in my case or gets utterly destroyed when I see it across from me haha.

Took my "wrecksler" list to a 35 person tourney at FFG today and made the top eight. It was using the old phantom rules still also. Defenders are not always bad. Some people just don't want to put the time in to learn them, kinda like me and the starviper.

I love the Defender, but I've run them in a few tournaments and they are really something you need to build around. Vessery needs Target Lock friends, Rex needs someone to give him extra actions, and the Generics don't bring enough power to the table in their own.

If all the pieces are in place they function reasonably well but start to falter once you take losses.

My most successful so far has been Rex + Lambda + 2 TIEs, though honorable mention goes to Rex + mini swarm. The thing with Rex to keep in mind is that his ability is opportunistic. If you need the focus to do damage, use it. If you don't need it, then spend it on his ability.

Ugh. The problem i still have, as much as I love the Defender is that it still dies WAYYY too easily. Has no evade, no extra actions to arc dodge, moderately limited dial.

I've been playing some for casual campaign games and ugh, they just die so fast. 4 hull or 4 shields would have helped make the 30 points more worth while, however, I really would suggest in retrospect just lowering the cost of the generics by 3 and the named by 1 or 2. that makes it easier to build for. just too **** expensive.

I landed a 4 hits to 3 blanks against a Corran Horn with Rexler and used the focus token to flip a Direct Hit.

Then Dash blew up Rexler and Vessery.

Ugh. The problem i still have, as much as I love the Defender is that it still dies WAYYY too easily. Has no evade, no extra actions to arc dodge, moderately limited dial.

I've been playing some for casual campaign games and ugh, they just die so fast. 4 hull or 4 shields would have helped make the 30 points more worth while, however, I really would suggest in retrospect just lowering the cost of the generics by 3 and the named by 1 or 2. that makes it easier to build for. just too **** expensive.

The Tie defende only has 1 more shield than an X-wing or a better example the Tie Advance. Yes it dies just as fast.

Ugh. The problem i still have, as much as I love the Defender is that it still dies WAYYY too easily. Has no evade, no extra actions to arc dodge, moderately limited dial.

I've been playing some for casual campaign games and ugh, they just die so fast. 4 hull or 4 shields would have helped make the 30 points more worth while, however, I really would suggest in retrospect just lowering the cost of the generics by 3 and the named by 1 or 2. that makes it easier to build for. just too **** expensive.

The Tie defende only has 1 more shield than an X-wing or a better example the Tie Advance. Yes it dies just as fast.

But it's half again more expensive, for a shield, a cannon slot, losing evade, switching the Green 1 banks to the 4 and 5 straight, switching the 4k to white, gaining red hard 1's, and 2's switch red hard 2's. That is not 9-10 pts worth of changes. It should at most be around 5 pts more. Maybe 6 or 7 if you really want to put a premium on the K-turn. That would leave a Delta at around 26 pts, which is much more palatable.

The problem with the defender and how it is so polarizing with the community can be summed up with this illustration. You see a new restaurant that looks great but notice not that many people are eating there, in fact it's practically empty. You decide to ask some that come out after eating how it was and they say it's really good and they come every day. You go inside and notice the prices are really expensive but decide to try it anyways. You get your plate and it's a small portion, you eat it and it's very bland except for one small side dish that's actually really quite amazing..... Some people will pay the ridiculous price for that one side dish and keep going back for more but for everyone else the food is just too expensive for what you get.

Ugh. The problem i still have, as much as I love the Defender is that it still dies WAYYY too easily. Has no evade, no extra actions to arc dodge, moderately limited dial.

I've been playing some for casual campaign games and ugh, they just die so fast. 4 hull or 4 shields would have helped make the 30 points more worth while, however, I really would suggest in retrospect just lowering the cost of the generics by 3 and the named by 1 or 2. that makes it easier to build for. just too **** expensive.

OK the cannon stats would be 3,4,5,5 with the addition of a torp and system slot but unfortunatly that would be too many point the defender is a jouster and a good one at that it just doesn't like swarms or vader.

So, we're 26 pages in now. Have we come to a consensus yet on why the Defender is bad, or are some people still lost in the dark?

Edit: now 27.

Consensus seems to be that a Defender is not *bad*, just a bit expensive for what it offers.

Consensus seems to be that a Defender is not *bad*, just a bit expensive for what it offers.

Agreed. At 30 points, it should have a turret or some other ability. If the Delta was 25 point, this thread wouldn't even exist. 4 Deltas would be a fearsome squad.

At 30 points, the Delta should have had an EPT slot and/or a higher PS, but it doesn't. If something is too expensive to be consistently viable, doesn't that make it bad?

At 30 points, the Delta should have had an EPT slot and/or a higher PS, but it doesn't. If something is too expensive to be consistently viable, doesn't that make it bad?

Depends on your definition of 'bad'.

I think the Tie Advanced (without the announced upgrade/title) is *bad*.

A defender is just a bit too expensive. (IMO)