All I did was give an example :``

All I did was give an example :``

Not you specifically, it's been going back and forth for pages and pages now. Someone says, "I would kill x by doing y" and then someone counters with the exact opposite.

All I did was give an example :``

If you look at my post history in this thread, you'll quickly see that I'm one of the few that actually believe the Defender is fine. I just don't believe it would be an easy fight against an Aggressor. I also play this ship a lot and it can be deadly.

It's not a my dad is stronger than yours argument. I love both ship. I brought a Defender to a Store Championship, and I'll bring an Aggressor to the Regionals.

All I did was give an example :``

Not you specifically, it's been going back and forth for pages and pages now. Someone says, "I would kill x by doing y" and then someone counters with the exact opposite.

And that's where I feel the ship falls down. As soon as that focus is gone, damage starts piling up. Doesn't matter if it's because of gunner, multiple ships shooting, or a stress; as soon as those green dice are unmodified, V starts hurting.

This is hardly unique to TIE Defenders. As soon as you are stressed, or are relying on unmodified green dice, and are taking hits from different sources, EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME STARTS HURTING.

How many times do we hear that a double stressed Soontir Fel is a dead Soontir Fel? Or that stress is a Phantom's worst enemy? Or that green dice cannot be relied on?

If you're ALLOWING your opponent to focus down your TIE Defender in the second round of shooting, it's YOU that's at fault, not the ship.

Kind of funny how often Riker shows up on an X-wing forum..........

And that's where I feel the ship falls down. As soon as that focus is gone, damage starts piling up. Doesn't matter if it's because of gunner, multiple ships shooting, or a stress; as soon as those green dice are unmodified, V starts hurting.

This is hardly unique to TIE Defenders. As soon as you are stressed, or are relying on unmodified green dice, and are taking hits from different sources, EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME STARTS HURTING.

How many times do we hear that a double stressed Soontir Fel is a dead Soontir Fel? Or that stress is a Phantom's worst enemy? Or that green dice cannot be relied on?

If you're ALLOWING your opponent to focus down your TIE Defender in the second round of shooting, it's YOU that's at fault, not the ship.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say defenders are made for jousting. Am I right? They definitely are not arc Dodgers and with the white kturn are pretty much used to fit that roll of a jouster. However when a ship is used this way you pretty much have to expect it's going to get shot at A LOT! Whereas other ships are not relying on jousting so therefore will usually take less fire. I think that's what he means. Your going to get shot a lot when jousting and you will only be able to modify one round of shooting or none depending on if you spent your focus token. So yes other ships die just as quick when having unmodified defense dice but when your running a ship that's primary focus is jousting it will be seeing those unmodified dice a lot more than other ships will.

So, to sum up...

So, to sum up...

No, more like:

And that's where I feel the ship falls down. As soon as that focus is gone, damage starts piling up. Doesn't matter if it's because of gunner, multiple ships shooting, or a stress; as soon as those green dice are unmodified, V starts hurting.

This is hardly unique to TIE Defenders. As soon as you are stressed, or are relying on unmodified green dice, and are taking hits from different sources, EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME STARTS HURTING.

How many times do we hear that a double stressed Soontir Fel is a dead Soontir Fel? Or that stress is a Phantom's worst enemy? Or that green dice cannot be relied on?

If you're ALLOWING your opponent to focus down your TIE Defender in the second round of shooting, it's YOU that's at fault, not the ship.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say defenders are made for jousting. Am I right? They definitely are not arc Dodgers and with the white kturn are pretty much used to fit that roll of a jouster. However when a ship is used this way you pretty much have to expect it's going to get shot at A LOT! Whereas other ships are not relying on jousting so therefore will usually take less fire. I think that's what he means. Your going to get shot a lot when jousting and you will only be able to modify one round of shooting or none depending on if you spent your focus token. So yes other ships die just as quick when having unmodified defense dice but when your running a ship that's primary focus is jousting it will be seeing those unmodified dice a lot more than other ships will.

This is where things get weird. You would think that they're jousters, but they really aren't. They're more flankers/hit and run ships. Unless it's a 1v1, jousting is a good way to die with a Defender.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say defenders are made for jousting. Am I right? They definitely are not arc Dodgers and with the white kturn are pretty much used to fit that roll of a jouster. However when a ship is used this way you pretty much have to expect it's going to get shot at A LOT! Whereas other ships are not relying on jousting so therefore will usually take less fire. I think that's what he means. Your going to get shot a lot when jousting and you will only be able to modify one round of shooting or none depending on if you spent your focus token. So yes other ships die just as quick when having unmodified defense dice but when your running a ship that's primary focus is jousting it will be seeing those unmodified dice a lot more than other ships will.

Your making a somewhat gross assumption that ships are either jousters or they are not. The defender does not fall in either category strictly speaking. It cannot trade shots vs. 3+ b-wings or 6+ TIE fighters. I mean, yeah, if it does, its going to die. To fly the defender effectively, you have to pick your engagement range and try to minimize incoming fire. That's the jist of the Defender's 'game'. So its not an arc-dodger like an interceptor (which wants to dodge ALL arcs) and its not a highly efficient jouster. It excels when facing 1v1 or possibly 1v2 odds, and if it can use barrel roll, asteroid positioning or other 'tricks' to get the ideal engagement (of no more than 1 or 2 return shots) then it is very strong. Its 3 green dice + a focus tank those kinds of odds just fine and its return fire is decent (especially with a cannon).

So no, its not exactly a jouster or an arc-dodger, but if you can find that 'in-between' where you position well to minimize return fire then you will do well with it. If you don't, well then, your defender will get blowed up.

Edit: actually I perhaps should mention I learned this the hard way. The first tourney I took a Defender to, I was 2-3 and my Delta was destroyed every time. Afterwards, I kinda felt, huh, the defender just isn't tough enough to take focus fire, and it can't arc-dodge like my interceptors....so its kinda hosed. Then I had a 'lightbulb' moment after reading about other people using it (like Biophysical's store tourney report in the Batrep subforum) and things started to click. I have since got better at it (I think) and can now confidently say that I can engineer positions or use board layout to my advantage so my defenders aren't taking the full force of enemy attacks every round.

100% what blade_mercurial said. It's a hybrid. In some circumstances it is an amazing jouster (1v1 against a of ships). In some circumstances you dodge some arcs with Barrel Roll. Sometimes you just fight in the open from a position of advantage (both sides K-turned and you're at long range). My best results with the ship are when I can use asteroids to limit the amount of firepower that can engage my Defender, which is a key strategy with any ship, but more significant with a Defender because it packs a lot of power in its small base, so you can got coverage from some enemy ships while getting open shots on others, and you've got enough hit points to tank what gets through for a while.

Aye, the Defender's a weird thing and part of playing is learning when to be aggressive and when to go "lol nope"

you see four B-wings barreling at you, it's time to gtfo.

you see a single decimator, keep your arcs on it.

They're a bit like the firespray, albeit with some obvious differences (base size, white 4k instead of rear arc) in that you have to get a feel for how to engage specific match-ups.

After playing Wave 5 for so long, almost every single match-up involved very aggressive engagements assisted with control cannons and a flanking Soontir because it's been nothing but ******* 2 ship lists. Ditto double Aggressors. Now that the meta's getting more varied, I'm going to need to account for larger squad sizes.

So its not an arc-dodger like an interceptor (which wants to dodge ALL arcs) and its not a highly efficient jouster. It excels when facing 1v1 or possibly 1v2 odds, and if it can use barrel roll, asteroid positioning or other 'tricks' to get the ideal engagement (of no more than 1 or 2 return shots) then it is very strong. Its 3 green dice + a focus tank those kinds of odds just fine and its return fire is decent (especially with a cannon).

I wonder if this is why there has been some murmurings of good success against double IG-2000 squads...

There's a few weird advantages it has over the IG2000. The base size has been mentioned plenty of times this thread. The white K is especially advantageous because so many of the IG2000s maneuver abilities come from dancing around your opponent, and the white K sort of mitigates this, as you can both turn around with an action (Assuming Advanced sensors IG). Also, HLCs and control cannons are both pretty useful against Aggressors. Control cannons limit their movement and HLCs help punch through 3 AGI. The Defender's own combination of 3 AGI and 6 HP is an interesting problem for IG88B as well. A lot of ships fall into either lots of HP and low AGI or a little HP and high AGI. A Mangler armed IG88B (and buddy) can prey on both of these. The crits from the Mangler help against big stuff and the re-roll from B helps sap tokens to break down small stuff that can't afford to be hit. Defenders can often block 1 or 2 damage with dice (modifying with Focus as necessary) and take the remaining on shields for a few turns. This prevents B from triggering the re-roll, but usually doesn't let big chunks of damage through.

It's all small stuff, but it adds up.

This is hardly unique to TIE Defenders. As soon as you are stressed, or are relying on unmodified green dice, and are taking hits from different sources, EVERY SINGLE SHIP IN THE GAME STARTS HURTING.

This is untrue. Any ship that can equip R2-D2 doesn't mind taking a couple points of damage, running away for a bit, and coming back at full health. Interceptors have token stacking and autothrusters to mitigate multiple shots. Fat Han and Firesprays can soak up a lot of red dice before going down. One game I put 14 TL+F red dice into whisper over 2 rounds of shooting and didn't even strip both shields. With the exception of Fat Han, every one of those ships is also cheaper than V+LW+HLC.

The only defensive tools that defenders have are: focus; barrel roll. That's specifically why I gave Vessery Lone Wolf; it's one of the few defensive elites. Triggering it can be difficult when both Echo and the TB are up, but it's something.

If you're ALLOWING your opponent to focus down your TIE Defender in the second round of shooting, it's YOU that's at fault, not the ship.

Ahh, chestnuts. I specifically addressed this in the paragraph that you quoted. I said "note, this can either be the second round of combat, or the round that V gets back into the fight after bugging out after round 1."

Defenders don't sneak back into the fight. It's obvious when and where they're going to return, and a good opponent will be ready and waiting, assuming that they didn't get the Defender on the way out. It's trivial to have both 4K and the 5 straight blocked and/or in arc. The 2 straight and the 5 straight result in positions that are less than a range band apart; it is not difficult to have coverage on both of them.

And yes, I know how to be unpredictable. I have performed hard 1s, pull 2 straights or 1 banks when my opponent expects the 4K, etc. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it just means that they get a round of shots where Vessery doesn't even have the focus token. Half of the people in this thread have been chanting "you can't try to fly it like an interceptor" and half insist that "you can't let it be in arc." I haven't been paying close enough attention to tell if it's the same half saying both, but I feel pretty confident that I'm not attempting the first, nor able to reliably ensure the second.

At the end of the day, these kinds of hypothetical discussions devolve into "lern2play" and "your opponents must suck."

Instead, I'd love it if someone else did what I did. Devote every single game you play to the ship for about six months (X-Wing night at the FLGS, tournament practice with friends, tournaments, store championships), use the results of those games to hone the list and your skill at flying it, and then report on what you've observed. I'd like to know not just "did you do well?" but also "was the defender pulling it's weight in points?"

For me, the answer is "no." It's not an awful ship, and I enjoy flying it, but being "pretty okay" isn't good enough in a competitive meta. The imperial lineup has a lot of ships with more bang for the buck in that 40ish point bracket.

Admiral Chiraneau has a higher jousting efficiency than the PS1 TIE Defender. (Derating for PS)

There is however a significant difference: the VT-49 has a turret. Silly Defender with it's white K-turn still needs to aim its gun to shoot. How quaint.

This is essentially the point that I brought up on NOVA #21.

Carry on.

Instead, I'd love it if someone else did what I did. Devote every single game you play to the ship for about six months (X-Wing night at the FLGS, tournament practice with friends, tournaments, store championships), use the results of those games to hone the list and your skill at flying it, and then report on what you've observed. I'd like to know not just "did you do well?" but also "was the defender pulling it's weight in points?"

For me, the answer is "no." It's not an awful ship, and I enjoy flying it, but being "pretty okay" isn't good enough in a competitive meta. The imperial lineup has a lot of ships with more bang for the buck in that 40ish point bracket.

I fully intend to do so. I started flying a Rexler + Whisper build recently for funsies, but after 4 matches, I haven't lost yet, so maybe I should take it to Regionals....gonna do some more playtests and see how it goes.

I started flying a Rexler + Whisper build recently for funsies, but after 4 matches, I haven't lost yet, so maybe I should take it to Regionals....gonna do some more playtests and see how it goes.

Mind posting the build? I'm curious what it is, since I'm having problems getting it to 100 points without just going for The Most Expensive Stuff, rather than what makes sense.

Mind posting the build? I'm curious what it is, since I'm having problems getting it to 100 points without just going for The Most Expensive Stuff, rather than what makes sense.

Umm, I kinda did just go for the expensive stuff....

Rexler w/ Lone Wolf, HLC, shield upgrade & proton rockets = 53

Whisper w/ VI, FCS, Gunner & ACD = 44

97 pts

Don't really want it any more expensive than that because initiative bid. Also, the proton rockets could easily be traded out for IPM, and after forgetting about them one match, then not being able to use them in the second (no R1 w/ focus the whole game!) I was considering making the switch. I decided to keep them vs a dual aggressors build and they were golden---giving me a substantial early game lead. And today's game they were absolutely gold vs Fat Han...along with not needing to spend the focus ---saved it to flip 3 face up crits w/ brath's ability for minor explosion (no damage of course), direct hit (great!) and injured pilot (huge!).

If you're running HLC you really don't need to run Prockets at all...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say defenders are made for jousting. Am I right? They definitely are not arc Dodgers and with the white kturn are pretty much used to fit that roll of a jouster. However when a ship is used this way you pretty much have to expect it's going to get shot at A LOT! Whereas other ships are not relying on jousting so therefore will usually take less fire. I think that's what he means. Your going to get shot a lot when jousting and you will only be able to modify one round of shooting or none depending on if you spent your focus token. So yes other ships die just as quick when having unmodified defense dice but when your running a ship that's primary focus is jousting it will be seeing those unmodified dice a lot more than other ships will.

Your making a somewhat gross assumption that ships are either jousters or they are not. The defender does not fall in either category strictly speaking. It cannot trade shots vs. 3+ b-wings or 6+ TIE fighters. I mean, yeah, if it does, its going to die. To fly the defender effectively, you have to pick your engagement range and try to minimize incoming fire. That's the jist of the Defender's 'game'. So its not an arc-dodger like an interceptor (which wants to dodge ALL arcs) and its not a highly efficient jouster. It excels when facing 1v1 or possibly 1v2 odds, and if it can use barrel roll, asteroid positioning or other 'tricks' to get the ideal engagement (of no more than 1 or 2 return shots) then it is very strong. Its 3 green dice + a focus tank those kinds of odds just fine and its return fire is decent (especially with a cannon).

So no, its not exactly a jouster or an arc-dodger, but if you can find that 'in-between' where you position well to minimize return fire then you will do well with it. If you don't, well then, your defender will get blowed up.

Edit: actually I perhaps should mention I learned this the hard way. The first tourney I took a Defender to, I was 2-3 and my Delta was destroyed every time. Afterwards, I kinda felt, huh, the defender just isn't tough enough to take focus fire, and it can't arc-dodge like my interceptors....so its kinda hosed. Then I had a 'lightbulb' moment after reading about other people using it (like Biophysical's store tourney report in the Batrep subforum) and things started to click. I have since got better at it (I think) and can now confidently say that I can engineer positions or use board layout to my advantage so my defenders aren't taking the full force of enemy attacks every round.

Admiral Chiraneau has a higher jousting efficiency than the PS1 TIE Defender. (Derating for PS)

There is however a significant difference: the VT-49 has a turret. Silly Defender with it's white K-turn still needs to aim its gun to shoot. How quaint.

This is essentially the point that I brought up on NOVA #21.

Carry on.

fair's fair

of course it doesn't take into account the point difference nor the ability's range 1-2 restriction (which I assume is in there, or else we'd have the patrol leader featured)

Admiral Chiraneau has a higher jousting efficiency than the PS1 TIE Defender. (Derating for PS)

There is however a significant difference: the VT-49 has a turret. Silly Defender with it's white K-turn still needs to aim its gun to shoot. How quaint.

This is essentially the point that I brought up on NOVA #21.

Carry on.

fair's fair

of course it doesn't take into account the point difference nor the ability's range 1-2 restriction (which I assume is in there, or else we'd have the patrol leader featured)

The range restriction is considered in the Admiral's expected damage.

Han comes out around at about the same jousting efficiency too. So for about the same jousting efficiency as the TIE Defender you can get a Fat Turret if you also are willing to bid to PS8/9.

Just had a VASSAL match using Rex & Whisper vs panic attack with a very good player at the helm. I got beat handily, but learned a few things. For example, I needed more time to get whisper in a good position, so I had to slow roll Rex even more. As it was I couldn't focus fire and get an early kill like I usually do (or try to). So looks like its B-wings 1 vs Defenders 0 (well for me anyway, since posting on this thread).