They were ioned...

Edit: it took me an hour to recreate this skirmish, and in less than a minute people are already criticizing. I guess that's the forums for you. Wish it weren't.

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

When your defenders repeatedly use movement that isn't on their dial it helps.

What do you mean?

When your defenders repeatedly use movement that isn't on their dial it helps.

What do you mean?

They missed the Ion Token.

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Maybe the primaries missed and they fired the Ion Cannon with IG88B's ability? Seems reasonable.

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Wow. This really kind of hurt my feelings. I'm not telling you whether I won or lost precisely because I expected this kind of response. I'm not saying in a grandiose voice, "And thus you can clearly see that TIE defenders are competitive!" That's not the point. The point is that I've use the 1-turns quite a bit more than others seem to have, and I think they have their uses.

My report wasn't for the naysayers. It was an attempt to open the minds of the believers. I'm hoping for a conversation here, not the ping-pong-right-wrong hate bash that's been going on for much of this thread.

You're right it does.

What are the odds of this IG build making in a competitive environment?

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Wow. This really kind of hurt my feelings. I'm not telling you whether I won or lost precisely because I expected this kind of response. I'm not saying in a grandiose voice, "And thus you can clearly see that TIE defenders are competitive!" That's not the point. The point is that I've use the 1-turns quite a bit more than others seem to have, and I think they have their uses.

My report wasn't for the naysayers. It was an attempt to open the minds of the believers. I'm hoping for a conversation here, not the ping-pong-right-wrong hate bash that's been going on for much of this thread.

But your post reinforces what we've been saying the whole time. Defenders are interesting and they do neat stuff in fun, try-whatever-you-want-to-try-tonight environments. Occasionally they even perform at tournaments. But on the average they need help.

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

I think this is the best way to sum up Defender strategy. People WANT it to be an in-your-face fighter. People WANT it to B-roll/boost into range 1. People WANT it to be any other freakin' ship in the game, but it isn't. A white 4k and a cannon slot begs for range 3 shots. Getting the hell out of dodge with a green 5 and/or a hard 3 and coming back with a 4k and a range 3 HLC is a tactic I've used and seen others use as well to great success.

What I can't fathom is that even though we explain how it works through experience and the likes of theory and comparisons, all of the naysayers are so quick to say "BLAAARRRGH MATH!" or "BLAAAARRGH ITS NOT (insert any other X-Wing Miniatures ship here)!" and say its garbage and that no one should play it.

All it needs is application. You'll never know how it flies until you try it.

I might have missed it but in twenty pages I don't think that I've seen anyone say that Defenders were garbage or that no one should play them. I have seen a lot of people attempt to answer the question posed in the OP; "Why do Defenders get a bad rap?".

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Wow. This really kind of hurt my feelings. I'm not telling you whether I won or lost precisely because I expected this kind of response. I'm not saying in a grandiose voice, "And thus you can clearly see that TIE defenders are competitive!" That's not the point. The point is that I've use the 1-turns quite a bit more than others seem to have, and I think they have their uses.

My report wasn't for the naysayers. It was an attempt to open the minds of the believers. I'm hoping for a conversation here, not the ping-pong-right-wrong hate bash that's been going on for much of this thread.

But your post reinforces what we've been saying the whole time. Defenders are interesting and they do neat stuff in fun, try-whatever-you-want-to-try-tonight environments. Occasionally they even perform at tournaments. But on the average they need help.

Okay. So they need help. I thought that was established way back on page 3 or something. Can you give it to them? Do we just twiddle our thumbs until they get a fix? Of course not! I just want to mingle with other fans of the TIE defender who are in high attendance in this thread, and share ideas.

My geometry teacher in high school taught me a valuable lesson about math that I often apply to all aspects of life. He said, "Don't ask what you are supposed to do; ask what you can do?" We have a beautiful ship with a whole heap of nostalgia. What can we do with it?

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

Wow. This really kind of hurt my feelings. I'm not telling you whether I won or lost precisely because I expected this kind of response. I'm not saying in a grandiose voice, "And thus you can clearly see that TIE defenders are competitive!" That's not the point. The point is that I've use the 1-turns quite a bit more than others seem to have, and I think they have their uses.

My report wasn't for the naysayers. It was an attempt to open the minds of the believers. I'm hoping for a conversation here, not the ping-pong-right-wrong hate bash that's been going on for much of this thread.

But your post reinforces what we've been saying the whole time. Defenders are interesting and they do neat stuff in fun, try-whatever-you-want-to-try-tonight environments. Occasionally they even perform at tournaments. But on the average they need help.

Okay. So they need help. I thought that was established way back on page 3 or something. Can you give it to them? Do we just twiddle our thumbs until they get a fix? Of course not! I just want to mingle with other fans of the TIE defender who are in high attendance in this thread, and share ideas.

My geometry teacher in high school taught me a valuable lesson about math that I often apply to all aspects of life. He said, "Don't ask what you are supposed to do; ask what you can do?" We have a beautiful ship with a whole heap of nostalgia. What can we do with it?

You had me right up until you called the TIE defender beautiful and suggested we'd be nostalgic about it. Thanks for posting your match though, it was very informative and I appreciate the effort you put in.

They were ioned...

Thank you. I thought the ion token made that pretty clear, but I guess I'd better edit my post since two people missed that.

Edit: it took me an hour to recreate this skirmish, and in less than a minute people are already criticizing. I guess that's the forums for you. Wish it weren't.

If it helps you some, I appreciate your visual and tactical contributions. If I knew how to work vassal, I'd do my best to be up to par on your effort to help qualify arguments, but I'm far too inept at computers to even try!

Also, mega props for running triple Defenders! I've done triple D's for fun myself, but with Ion Cannons instead of Hull Upgrades.

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

I think this is the best way to sum up Defender strategy. People WANT it to be an in-your-face fighter. People WANT it to B-roll/boost into range 1. People WANT it to be any other freakin' ship in the game, but it isn't. A white 4k and a cannon slot begs for range 3 shots. Getting the hell out of dodge with a green 5 and/or a hard 3 and coming back with a 4k and a range 3 HLC is a tactic I've used and seen others use as well to great success.

What I can't fathom is that even though we explain how it works through experience and the likes of theory and comparisons, all of the naysayers are so quick to say "BLAAARRRGH MATH!" or "BLAAAARRGH ITS NOT (insert any other X-Wing Miniatures ship here)!" and say its garbage and that no one should play it.

All it needs is application. You'll never know how it flies until you try it.

I might have missed it but in twenty pages I don't think that I've seen anyone say that Defenders were garbage or that no one should play them. I have seen a lot of people attempt to answer the question posed in the OP; "Why do Defenders get a bad rap?".

I did call them Trash Defenders, and I called the named pilot abilities dumpster tier in the third post in this thread.

A lot of their points are put into maneuverability, so if you bring it to Turretwing your opponent will roll 3-4 attack dice, predator, activate the real admiral's ability, and focus if need be and get 3-4 hits on you and you'll be taking 2-3 hits every time it fires. If you god roll on defense or he whiffs, then Gunner triggers and you've just lost 15 points (or more if you wasted points on higher PS) of your build.

These things would be better if they were facing pre-wave 4 stuff, where you saw stuff like 2 Rookies and two HLC b wings or TIE Swarms. Now that normal builds are completely out of the picture and the game is all about stacking 15 actions on your HLC Turret that can ignore asteroids and gaming the time limit that has no place in this game, you can't really just put together a list based around a 30 point ship that can merely perform one action with no predator rerolls and a dial that is half red anymore.

See this is exactly the point we've been making about the majority of people who have success with defenders. If you're looking to play something different in a friendly game against another subpar list they are pretty fun.

But nobody is going to ion a defender with 2 hull left when you're in a competitive environment. We assumed they weren't ioned because why the hell would anyone who was trying to win do that?

That's got to be the biggest assumption I have seen in a thread that has been full of assumptions...you made your point about 10 pages ago...we get it you don't think the defender is competitive and is "subpar" as you put it...some of us are inclined to disagree and have had success in different environments...but feel free to keep regurgitating the same argument and banging your head against a wall. I don't think you are doing to change our opinions...regardless of how right you feel you are.

I have stayed out of this for the most part...but the condescending attitude out of the "competitive" minded posters in here is starting to get to be just a little too much...makes me glad I remain focused on the more casual side of this game...makes this general attitude much easier to avoid...

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

I think this is the best way to sum up Defender strategy. People WANT it to be an in-your-face fighter. People WANT it to B-roll/boost into range 1. People WANT it to be any other freakin' ship in the game, but it isn't. A white 4k and a cannon slot begs for range 3 shots. Getting the hell out of dodge with a green 5 and/or a hard 3 and coming back with a 4k and a range 3 HLC is a tactic I've used and seen others use as well to great success.

What I can't fathom is that even though we explain how it works through experience and the likes of theory and comparisons, all of the naysayers are so quick to say "BLAAARRRGH MATH!" or "BLAAAARRGH ITS NOT (insert any other X-Wing Miniatures ship here)!" and say its garbage and that no one should play it.

All it needs is application. You'll never know how it flies until you try it.

I might have missed it but in twenty pages I don't think that I've seen anyone say that Defenders were garbage or that no one should play them. I have seen a lot of people attempt to answer the question posed in the OP; "Why do Defenders get a bad rap?".

I did call them Trash Defenders, and I called the named pilot abilities dumpster tier in the third post in this thread.

A lot of their points are put into maneuverability, so if you bring it to Turretwing your opponent will roll 3-4 attack dice, predator, activate the real admiral's ability, and focus if need be and get 3-4 hits on you and you'll be taking 2-3 hits every time it fires. If you god roll on defense or he whiffs, then Gunner triggers and you've just lost 15 points (or more if you wasted points on higher PS) of your build.

These things would be better if they were facing pre-wave 4 stuff, where you saw stuff like 2 Rookies and two HLC b wings or TIE Swarms. Now that normal builds are completely out of the picture and the game is all about stacking 15 actions on your HLC Turret that can ignore asteroids and gaming the time limit that has no place in this game, you can't really just put together a list based around a 30 point ship that can merely perform one action with no predator rerolls and a dial that is half red anymore.

Maneuverability matters against turrets. It's always better to be behind turrets than in front of them.

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

I think this is the best way to sum up Defender strategy. People WANT it to be an in-your-face fighter. People WANT it to B-roll/boost into range 1. People WANT it to be any other freakin' ship in the game, but it isn't. A white 4k and a cannon slot begs for range 3 shots. Getting the hell out of dodge with a green 5 and/or a hard 3 and coming back with a 4k and a range 3 HLC is a tactic I've used and seen others use as well to great success.

What I can't fathom is that even though we explain how it works through experience and the likes of theory and comparisons, all of the naysayers are so quick to say "BLAAARRRGH MATH!" or "BLAAAARRGH ITS NOT (insert any other X-Wing Miniatures ship here)!" and say its garbage and that no one should play it.

All it needs is application. You'll never know how it flies until you try it.

I might have missed it but in twenty pages I don't think that I've seen anyone say that Defenders were garbage or that no one should play them. I have seen a lot of people attempt to answer the question posed in the OP; "Why do Defenders get a bad rap?".

I did call them Trash Defenders, and I called the named pilot abilities dumpster tier in the third post in this thread.

A lot of their points are put into maneuverability, so if you bring it to Turretwing your opponent will roll 3-4 attack dice, predator, activate the real admiral's ability, and focus if need be and get 3-4 hits on you and you'll be taking 2-3 hits every time it fires. If you god roll on defense or he whiffs, then Gunner triggers and you've just lost 15 points (or more if you wasted points on higher PS) of your build.

These things would be better if they were facing pre-wave 4 stuff, where you saw stuff like 2 Rookies and two HLC b wings or TIE Swarms. Now that builds are completely out of the picture and the game is all about stacking 15 actions on your HLC Turret that can ignore asteroids and gaming the time limit that has no place in this game, you can't really just put together a list based around a 30 point ship that can merely perform one action with no predator rerolls and a dial that is half red anymore.

Maneuverability matters against turrets. It's always better to be behind turrets than in front of them.

That turret probably cost quite a bit more than that defender too...so I would expect it to win in his vacuum match up...

Alright! This is where I think the thread gets interesting. People are starting to share some experiences, and I think those of us interested in flying the TIE defender can learn from each other. With that in mind, I wanted to share a small section of a game I played last night. My squad:

3x Delta Squadron Pilot (Ion Cannon)

Up against

IG-88B (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

IG-88C (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

Here's how it looks at round 3 or 4

Incidentally, looking at that diagram, I would dial in a 1 left bank with IG88C. I know, monday morning quarterback...

In tight quarter like that you pretty much have to assume that both ships are getting blocked, so it's a question of what is better for:

1) ensuring that you have a shot on something (if you bump your only target that's bad)

2) each ship has a good line for next round

Banking there gives 88C an unblockable 4K escape route next turn, with guns on target. More importantly, he may have a shot on either 42 or 9, depending what 42 does. In this case you move B up first, and C either clears or bumps B, but I don't think he can bump 9, and will be guaranteed to get a shot on him.

To be fair, a 1-bank on C would have left it taking range 1 shots from 2 Defenders in the above scenario, whole only being able to target the less damaged one. I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the 1-bank, but I can see the logic.

Alright! This is where I think the thread gets interesting. People are starting to share some experiences, and I think those of us interested in flying the TIE defender can learn from each other. With that in mind, I wanted to share a small section of a game I played last night. My squad:

3x Delta Squadron Pilot (Ion Cannon)

Up against

IG-88B (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

IG-88C (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

Incidentally, looking at that diagram, I would dial in a 1 left bank with IG88C. I know, monday morning quarterback...

In tight quarter like that you pretty much have to assume that both ships are getting blocked, so it's a question of what is better for:

1) ensuring that you have a shot on something (if you bump your only target that's bad)

2) each ship has a good line for next round

Banking there gives 88C an unblockable 4K escape route next turn, with guns on target. More importantly, he may have a shot on either 42 or 9, depending what 42 does. In this case you move B up first, and C either clears or bumps B, but I don't think he can bump 9, and will be guaranteed to get a shot on him.

Awesome! This the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. Although, it would be nice if you had advice about the defender. The only problem I can pick out is that IG-88C has only a 3-K-turn (EDIT: I goofed. Don't actually own the Scum ships, and only played against them a handful of times), and I'm not sure it would clear. The onus would be on IG-88B to move first to get out of the way, if he could. He'd probably make it with so many green options on his dial.

To be fair, a 1-bank on C would have left it taking range 1 shots from 2 Defenders in the above scenario, whole only being able to target the less damaged one. I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the 1-bank, but I can see the logic.

Good call. Man, I kind of wish he did go for the 1 bank

Alright! This is where I think the thread gets interesting. People are starting to share some experiences, and I think those of us interested in flying the TIE defender can learn from each other. With that in mind, I wanted to share a small section of a game I played last night. My squad:

3x Delta Squadron Pilot (Ion Cannon)

Up against

IG-88B (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

IG-88C (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

Incidentally, looking at that diagram, I would dial in a 1 left bank with IG88C. I know, monday morning quarterback...

In tight quarter like that you pretty much have to assume that both ships are getting blocked, so it's a question of what is better for:

1) ensuring that you have a shot on something (if you bump your only target that's bad)

2) each ship has a good line for next round

Banking there gives 88C an unblockable 4K escape route next turn, with guns on target. More importantly, he may have a shot on either 42 or 9, depending what 42 does. In this case you move B up first, and C either clears or bumps B, but I don't think he can bump 9, and will be guaranteed to get a shot on him.

Awesome! This the kind of thing I was hoping to hear. Although, it would be nice if you had advice about the defender. The only problem I can pick out is that IG-88C has only a 3-K-turn, and I'm not sure it would clear. The onus would be on IG-88B to move first to get out of the way, if he could. He'd probably make it with so many green options on his dial.

To be fair, a 1-bank on C would have left it taking range 1 shots from 2 Defenders in the above scenario, whole only being able to target the less damaged one. I'm not saying there aren't advantages to the 1-bank, but I can see the logic.

Good call. Man, I kind of wish he did go for the 1 bank

Basically at that range there's a possibility for either side to totally bone the other one if just the right moves are guessed. Overthinking it is probably not very useful, because no matter what you do, if the other player guesses right, you might be taking huge damage.

*reads thread, shakes head at some of the vitriol exchanged*


I've played the Defender quite a bit recently (and yes, it was only after the requisite twenty combat missions in Interceptors ), and I do think it's a little sub-par, but not to the degree of pre-fix A-Wing/TIE Adv./Y-Wing/TIE Bomber. It actually reminds me a bit of where the Interceptor was pre-Aces - two completely different ships, yes, but solid with a couple weaknesses, and requiring a good pilot to make the most of them (within their limits, of course). I'd like to see an Aces pack with a couple more Defender jockeys and a minor upgrade or two...

Back to the topic at hand, I've had some success pairing the Defender up with a pair of PTL Interceptors (Rexler/Carnor/Royal Guard, in case you're wondering), as they somewhat cover each other's maneuvering weaknesses. The Interceptors loathe K-Turning, where the Defender loves it. If an opponent tries to take advantage of that and get behind an Interceptor, then it opens them up to shots from the Defender, and if they try to play with the Defender, then it lets the Interceptors get clear and swing around for another pass.

The only problem I can pick out is that IG-88C has only a 3-K-turn, and I'm not sure it would clear.

The Seg-Loops are speed 3, but the Aggressor's K-Turn is speed 4.

When your defenders repeatedly use movement that isn't on their dial it helps.

What do you mean?

Ironically this is my biggest problem with defenders (which I love and have played from the beginning in spite of it) is that if my opponent doesn't make any mistakes then there's no way to win.

Well, besides hot dice.

I know half the people reading are rolling their eyes saying, "Oh, that IG-2000 list is no good," so I'm not going to tell you how the game ended. I just wanted to demonstrate an example of when that 1-turn maneuver was absolutely critical, even though it left my ship stressed. In the preceding game I also used the 1-turn to avoid an asteroid, and then was able to K-turn the next round anyway because a TIE defender doesn't give a sithspit about stress!

Well thanks for sharing! I was too tired last night to look at it closely (hence missing the ion tokens), but looks like it was an interesting match. Don't worry about people being all critical - it looks to me like you made good choices with your manoeuvres under those circumstances. Also, the aggressor build is interesting. Its a good use of accuracy corrector (with ions or autoblaster). For me though, it feels like too many points spent on cannons, but that's the great thing about this game: everyone can fly what they like!

I do think it's a little sub-par, but not to the degree of pre-fix A-Wing/TIE Adv./Y-Wing/TIE Bomber. It actually reminds me a bit of where the Interceptor was pre-Aces - two completely different ships, yes, but solid with a couple weaknesses, and requiring a good pilot to make the most of them (within their limits, of course). I'd like to see an Aces pack with a couple more Defender jockeys and a minor upgrade or two...

This. They are solid in the right environment. I would call them "limited," not "broken." Part of the problem was the phantom competing for the elite fighter niche. And point for point whisper is tough to beat. We will see if the cloaking change has any secondary effects on defender use.

But to gwt back to Beardface's quote, an aces pack would be amazing. A couple pilots, maybe a generic with an ept, and couple of tools that add action economy/synergy to open up build variance a bit, and i think defenders would be right on target.