In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

In a strict sense it might be, but the action economy of Rexlar versus any other small-base contender for 40+ points is really low. Fleet Officer helps, but that makes for a very restrictive list.

There was a three-defender list run at my store championship last night. I think it went 3-1, but it might have been 2-2. Either way, it was quite competitive, though our event wasn't huge (27 players). Don't recall if it made the top eight cut or not. I was still hurting from going 1-3 with my scum, and wanted to drink away my sorrows and watch the Badgers win at basketball.

That was me, I went 3-1 and then lost in the Elimination to the Whisper and Kath build, which I almost pulled out as damaged Whisper was only a couple mm out of arc after barrel rolling at range one from a Delta with no shot and the Delta had a TL+Focus

In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

In a strict sense it might be, but the action economy of Rexlar versus any other small-base contender for 40+ points is really low. Fleet Officer helps, but that makes for a very restrictive list.

It was but the Aggressor did pass it up because it has the extra hull+shield and I think the 2400 is hoher too, I believe the order now is Agressor>Outrider>=Firespray>Defender (Outrider has the advantage because of 5/5 instead of 6/4 with no actions or offensive actions, but the Firespray has an evade action which would bump it up)

Something interesting about the Aggressor and Defender that set them apart from some other "big" (high point) ships in terms of their jousting value is the 3 AGI combined with a fair chunk of hit points. This adds an additional wrinkle when you're actually flying against someone. MajorJuggler's jousting values assume a certain percentage of each kind of ship is shooting at the particular ship being analyzed (he can correct me if I'm wrong, but that is my understanding), so you're looking at an average mix of different kinds of shots coming in on the ship when estimating durability. For low AGI ships, anything is really going to do some damage to it, at least once the tokens get stripped (in the case of something like Fat Falcons). For high AGI ships, lots of 2-dice attacks are actually pretty lousy at killing them.

Lets say you've got a souped up Rexler Brath or IG88-B sitting at around 50 points vs 4x Academy Pilots (fairly poor jousting values vs pretty good jousting values). The 2-dice attacks will struggle to do damage in the initial firing rounds (2 vs 4 dice at long range), but the HLC of the Defender or Aggressor will have little trouble making a 4 on 1 into a 3 on 1. Even if the TIEs land some hits, the Aggressor or Defender won't have their firepower degraded at all.Because of this sort of dynamic, Aggressor and Defender squads have a certain luxury in when they target elements of their opponent's squads. If you can drop the Big Gun in a Big Gun/Miniswarm style list, the Miniswarm is pretty easy to clean up with a single Aggressor or Defender, even though it almost always has a great jousting value. This is compounded by good use of the asteroids (especially for the small based TIE Defender). It becomes difficult for all of the opposing ships to bring their shots to bear on your single 50 point high AGI ship, while it isn't too hard to bring one of the miniswarm ships into arc. What the high jousting value miniswarm has to do is get lots of shots at close range against fast ships that have some degree of arc dodging. It's not impossible, but it's tough, and it's why you play a ship a few times with an open mind instead of relying only on jousting values.

In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

In a strict sense it might be, but the action economy of Rexlar versus any other small-base contender for 40+ points is really low. Fleet Officer helps, but that makes for a very restrictive list.

It was but the Aggressor did pass it up because it has the extra hull+shield and I think the 2400 is hoher too, I believe the order now is Agressor>Outrider>=Firespray>Defender (Outrider has the advantage because of 5/5 instead of 6/4 with no actions or offensive actions, but the Firespray has an evade action which would bump it up)

Every large ship that isn't a Shuttle or an ORS is ahead of the Defender on durability.

Lets say you've got a souped up Rexler Brath or IG88-B sitting at around 50 points vs 4x Academy Pilots (fairly poor jousting values vs pretty good jousting values). The 2-dice attacks will struggle to do damage in the initial firing rounds (2 vs 4 dice at long range), but the HLC of the Defender or Aggressor will have little trouble making a 4 on 1 into a 3 on 1. Even if the TIEs land some hits, the Aggressor or Defender won't have their firepower degraded at all.Because of this sort of dynamic, Aggressor and Defender squads have a certain luxury in when they target elements of their opponent's squads. If you can drop the Big Gun in a Big Gun/Miniswarm style list, the Miniswarm is pretty easy to clean up with a single Aggressor or Defender, even though it almost always has a great jousting value. This is compounded by good use of the asteroids (especially for the small based TIE Defender). It becomes difficult for all of the opposing ships to bring their shots to bear on your single 50 point high AGI ship, while it isn't too hard to bring one of the miniswarm ships into arc. What the high jousting value miniswarm has to do is get lots of shots at close range against fast ships that have some degree of arc dodging. It's not impossible, but it's tough, and it's why you play a ship a few times with an open mind instead of relying only on jousting values.

I have experienced several times that "Defender vs 4 TIEs" scenarios, both as the giving and the receiving player, so I can spoil the end of the film for you.

The film ends with one TIE blocking the Defender, and the rest shredding it apart, like piranhas in a fishtank.

My experience has had a Defender having success in that situation, and less condescension.

You must be a truly skilled player then. I wish I had the privilege of fighting you one day.

I think he's just someone who doesn't make obviously bad choices. Why would anyone fly anything straight at a block of TIEs?

I think he's just someone who doesn't make obviously bad choices. Why would anyone fly anything straight at a block of TIEs?

Because their ship is incapable of executing turns?

It seems a lot of people don't get that you shouldn't try to knife fight or commit to a head on joust with a defender. If you are not engaging at range and/or on the obliques, you are not playing to your strengths, and your "required efficiency" isn't good enough for you to not exploit those strengths mercilessly.

I think he's just someone who doesn't make obviously bad choices. Why would anyone fly anything straight at a block of TIEs?

Because their ship is incapable of executing turns?

Because having every single turn and bank doesn't count as turns?

The defender isn't an interceptor plus if you try to use it like one you will lose, it's a heavy fighter that likes standing off at a distance.

I think I have said it before, but if you want a 30pt super-ceptor, take a royal+ptl+autothrusters+hull. If you tried to make the defender a super-ceptor, it would either invalidate the int or be invalidated by the int, like the xwing vs bwing.

It is clear that he must possess that level of excellence and finesse that defenders require to be successfully piloted, as has been repeteadly noted on almost every page of this thread by practically all players that argue in their favour. It Is obvious that other pilots, like me, cannot match the high standards required by the ship, hence the disappointing results. Simply put, there are people who are not born to fly this ship. That privilege is reserved for a few selected natural talents.

I sincerely beg forgiveness for my condescending attitude toward those people.

I sincerely beg forgiveness for my condescending attitude toward those people.

Your apology is accepted and your humbleness has been duly noted, child.

It is clear that he must possess that level of excellence and finesse that defenders require to be successfully piloted, as has been repeteadly noted on almost every page of this thread by practically all players that argue in their favour. It Is obvious that other pilots, like me, cannot match the high standards required by the ship, hence the disappointing results. Simply put, there are people who are not born to fly this ship. That privilege is reserved for a few selected natural talents.

I sincerely beg forgiveness for my condescending attitude toward those people.

Don't feel bad I can't fly the shuttle very well, you find the ships your good with and use em.

Most people who hate on the defender as worthless garbage complain that the defender fails what it doesn't play to its strengths. I can't blame them, it flies a lot differently from most other ships.

Engage at range, preferably in a flanking position but on an oblique course to the enemy.

Let the rest of your squadron draw aggression and generally force the enemy into a furball so you can put in work.

If the enemy is intent on focusing on you, disengage and re-engage. Your dial sucks for knife fighting but is awesome for bailing.

If you have a chance of getting your 4k blocked, DON'T USE YOUR 4K. Everyone knows it is an awesome move and probably your best move and will try to block it.

If you might get yourself into a tight spot, disengage and re-engage. Better to bail early that later. You'll take less unanswered damage.

If you get into a 1v1 knife fight, use your 4k liberally.

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

It is clear that he must possess that level of excellence and finesse that defenders require to be successfully piloted, as has been repeteadly noted on almost every page of this thread by practically all players that argue in their favour. It Is obvious that other pilots, like me, cannot match the high standards required by the ship, hence the disappointing results. Simply put, there are people who are not born to fly this ship. That privilege is reserved for a few selected natural talents.

I sincerely beg forgiveness for my condescending attitude toward those people.

Don't feel bad I can't fly the shuttle very well, you find the ships your good with and use em.

Heck, I can't make Engine Upgrade work on Firesprays or Defenders, and that's probably the most loved Modification (if not card) in the game.

Don't be afraid to disengage. Your 4k and cannon will get you back and producing in no time.

I think this is the best way to sum up Defender strategy. People WANT it to be an in-your-face fighter. People WANT it to B-roll/boost into range 1. People WANT it to be any other freakin' ship in the game, but it isn't. A white 4k and a cannon slot begs for range 3 shots. Getting the hell out of dodge with a green 5 and/or a hard 3 and coming back with a 4k and a range 3 HLC is a tactic I've used and seen others use as well to great success.

What I can't fathom is that even though we explain how it works through experience and the likes of theory and comparisons, all of the naysayers are so quick to say "BLAAARRRGH MATH!" or "BLAAAARRGH ITS NOT (insert any other X-Wing Miniatures ship here)!" and say its garbage and that no one should play it.

All it needs is application. You'll never know how it flies until you try it.

I think he's just someone who doesn't make obviously bad choices. Why would anyone fly anything straight at a block of TIEs?

Because their ship is incapable of executing turns?

Because having every single turn and bank doesn't count as turns?

No, it doesn't.

Alright! This is where I think the thread gets interesting. People are starting to share some experiences, and I think those of us interested in flying the TIE defender can learn from each other. With that in mind, I wanted to share a small section of a game I played last night. My squad:

3x Delta Squadron Pilot (Ion Cannon)

Up against

IG-88B (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

IG-88C (Ion Cannon, Autoblasters, Accuracy Correctors, Inertial Dampeners, Autothrusters, IG-2000)

Here's how it looks at round 3 or 4

My Delta Squadron Pilots move first. Delta 42 is in serious peril. Between Autoblasters and Accuracy Corrector, he is as good as dead-especially since be's ioned! ...unless perhaps I can pull off some blocking...Delta 42 performs a Barrel Roll as far forward as he can because it's not like a Focus token will do anything against Autoblasters.

The block works! Not only does IG-88C bump into Delta 42, but the other defenders block IG-88B's K-turn, leaving him without a shot on 42 either!

The end of the round sees Delta 37 with an ion token, and IG-88C down to 3 hull. At this point, I'm totally expecting the Segnor's Loop from IG-88C. With that in mind, I decide not to go for a K-turn (if I even could have made it) and instead do a 1-turn into IG-88B. If I calculated it right, I ought to have a shot on IG-88C, with no return shot!

(You'll notice that Delta 9 shifted a bit. I recreated this because I forgot to save the log file, so my placement was a little off, and I had to adjust. Always save your log files!). Now the IG-2000s get to move.

Rats! I almost guessed right. IG-88C performs a 3-bank instead of a Segnor's Loop, and is free to Boost out of the way. Still, Delta 9 managed to block IG-88B, which is something. Unfortunately he managed to finish off Delta 42 with an Ion Cannon attack.

I know half the people reading are rolling their eyes saying, "Oh, that IG-2000 list is no good," so I'm not going to tell you how the game ended. I just wanted to demonstrate an example of when that 1-turn maneuver was absolutely critical, even though it left my ship stressed. In the preceding game I also used the 1-turn to avoid an asteroid, and then was able to K-turn the next round anyway because a TIE defender doesn't give a sithspit about stress!

P.S. That IG-2000 build is scary when you depend on your green dice. If anybody can close the distance to range 1 safely, it's IG-88C. And with Accuracy Corrector, it doesn't care about actions to increase its offense.

When your defenders repeatedly use movement that isn't on their dial it helps.

Um, Parakitor, it looks like you used a 1-straight a couple times there, but TIE defender doesn't have it on its dial...

Well, I guess it pays to pay attention

They were ioned...