Well we've all misjudged distance from time to time it can happen with any ship.

Yeah, I was thinking that, too. Still, white-K-turn makes it something you can shrug off pretty easily. Hopefully. Unless you're woefully out of position and surrounded by enemy forces.

I'm a Defender fan and I play them pretty often in friendly games but IMO they are bad.

Just consider this:

Blue Squadron Pilot, 22 points

PS 2 : 3, 1, 5, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Torpedo x 2, Cannon, Mod, System Upgrade

Delta Squadron Pilot, 30 points

PS 1 : 3, 3, 3, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Missile, Cannon, Mod

At this point the B looks marginally better to me for 8 points less. Skip to the end, the defender does nothing to close that gap. Poor action economy, poor maneuver wheel, middling to bad unique pilot abilities. White K-turns are nice but just don't make up for the other problems.

Then look at what is competing for the same points, we all know about Phantoms but for a couple of points more for equivilent PS you can have a Firespray. For much cheaper you'll soon be able to have ATC Tie/x1s.

They aren't so bad that you can't win. However, they are so bad that it looks like there are strategically dominant options to choosing Defenders. The only reason to field Defenders is that you want to field Defenders.

Your comparison between defender & b-wing is a bit off. The Defender's dial is considerably better than a b-wing's, their 'action economy' is identical and while the defender's unique pilot abilities do fall a tad short in comparison to Keyan, they are not objectively any worse than Drea's, Ten's or Ibtisam's (personal preferences may skew that sense, however).

Also, try plopping 3 blue squadron b-wings (66 pts) on the table and two delta defenders with hull upgrades (also 66 pts) and joust them against each other. The deltas will win every time (barring the most extreme bad luck) and it would get even worse for the b-wings if you slapped ion cannons on the deltas instead of the hulls.

Admittedly, it would be awesome if defenders got a sensor slot like the b-wing, but alas, the phantom has that distinction.

Now I agree with you that the defender's biggest problem is competition in its point range with Firesprays, Phantoms and named interceptors (soon to be vader in his new x1 advanced too). Comparing the defender to these makes it seem somewhat lacking at first glance, but it does have one thing going for it that none of those ships can do as well: joust. Its a pretty **** good jouster. Having said that, I don't think 2 defenders (60 pts) are as good at jousting as 5 academy pilots (also 60 pts), and I think that's where it truly cannot compare...

Also, try plopping 3 blue squadron b-wings (66 pts) on the table and two delta defenders with hull upgrades (also 66 pts) and joust them against each other. The deltas will win every time (barring the most extreme bad luck) and it would get even worse for the b-wings if you slapped ion cannons on the deltas instead of the hulls.

Interesting, I'll have to try it. But it's a somewhat unfair comparison; the question isn't which wins a fight with each other but which works better overall and Bs scare me a lot more than Defenders. It might just be that Defenders cost make them awkward to fit in but that comes back to the cost not being justified.

Also, try plopping 3 blue squadron b-wings (66 pts) on the table and two delta defenders with hull upgrades (also 66 pts) and joust them against each other. The deltas will win every time (barring the most extreme bad luck) and it would get even worse for the b-wings if you slapped ion cannons on the deltas instead of the hulls.

I think you might be underestimating the B-Wings in that joust. The B-Wings will have had 6 attacks before it would be possible for the Defenders to have destroyed one of the B-Wings. Assuming that the B-Wings have a way to modify their attacks (and all of the attacks are 3 dice) they should expect to get 13.5 hits/crits. The Defender (without a focus) will be expected to roll 6.75 evades. The The Defender will likely have a Focus to spend against 2 of the 6 attacks but any time that excess evades are rolled they are wasted so the math above is probably close enough to make my point.

It should be fairly common for a Defender to be destroyed before it gets a second shot and is possible for one to be destroyed before it even gets a first shot. The B-Wings will always get to take 2 shots before being destroyed and may often get a third or even a fourth shot before one is destroyed.

The B-Wings will have very consistent performance joust after joust while the performance of the Defenders will have big swings in performance. In the matches that the green dice are kind the Defenders may take down the first B-Wing without taking a point of damage, but when the dice let them down the B-Wings may eliminate the first Defender and put damage on the second in the opening exchange.

I'm a Defender fan and I play them pretty often in friendly games but IMO they are bad.

Just consider this:

Blue Squadron Pilot, 22 points

PS 2 : 3, 1, 5, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Torpedo x 2, Cannon, Mod, System Upgrade

Delta Squadron Pilot, 30 points

PS 1 : 3, 3, 3, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Missile, Cannon, Mod

At this point the B looks marginally better to me for 8 points less. Skip to the end, the defender does nothing to close that gap. Poor action economy, poor maneuver wheel, middling to bad unique pilot abilities. White K-turns are nice but just don't make up for the other problems.

Then look at what is competing for the same points, we all know about Phantoms but for a couple of points more for equivilent PS you can have a Firespray. For much cheaper you'll soon be able to have ATC Tie/x1s.

They aren't so bad that you can't win. However, they are so bad that it looks like there are strategically dominant options to choosing Defenders. The only reason to field Defenders is that you want to field Defenders.

The bwing is my favorite rebel generic and ship in general (dependable, versatile, only one green die) so take it from me when I say defenders do preform certain tasks far more efficiently

The bs are tops in their squads because of action efficiency ala FCS or control ala the almighty, dice independent tacticians, but there are some things they HATE

1.) range 3. 1 agility ******* blows at range 3 and the enemy will almost always get the advantage there (decimators excluded ). In addition they detest 2 dice **** ships like the z-95, which tend to flounder against 3+ agility.

2.) Bwings are SLOW which makes it hell on earth to catch up to fast bastards esp large bases, speaking of

3.) Bwings hate blocking large ships. It's all well and good until you realize their base is as long as your k turn.

Again, love bwings but I was very much reminded of their greatest flaws when I started to try out defenders

When I see a defender across from me I think to myself "thank you for the free points". Focus fire on the defender and you just banked some free points for yourself. They may be good jousters but there's a reason they don't pop up much competitively. Which is why bwings show up a lot because of their low cost high performance value.

When I see a defender across from me I think to myself "thank you for the free points". Focus fire on the defender and you just banked some free points for yourself. They may be good jousters but there's a reason they don't pop up much competitively. Which is why bwings show up a lot because of their low cost high performance value.

Any ship pops if you focus on it I don't get why people keep repeating this myth that defenders are fragile.

I've had one chased by a b-wing and a z-95 for five turns and live while the other two tore wedge a new one, and it was on one hit point I just used the speed to stay at max range.

If your killing defenders easy then the person using them is doing something wrong.

Ships that have tokens to spend on defense, especially multiple ones, don't pop like defenders. Other than Decimators, green dice augmentation through tokens or other upgrades is a central part of almost all the top ships. Defender get a focus...if they don't use it on offense.

Yes, occasionally a defender's green dice won't put them on the free point list, but in a tournament that luck won't carry 5-8 rounds. Eventually those dice will fail. This is very straightforward math. They ARE fragile.

When I see a defender across from me I think to myself "thank you for the free points". Focus fire on the defender and you just banked some free points for yourself. They may be good jousters but there's a reason they don't pop up much competitively. Which is why bwings show up a lot because of their low cost high performance value.

Any ship pops if you focus on it I don't get why people keep repeating this myth that defenders are fragile.

I've had one chased by a b-wing and a z-95 for five turns and live while the other two tore wedge a new one, and it was on one hit point I just used the speed to stay at max range.

If your killing defenders easy then the person using them is doing something wrong.

I think the problem is that unlike a B-wing, you've lost 1/3 of your list (at least) instead of 1/4 when the focus fire does happen. And it's made more likely because TIE defenders love to joust, so all guns are pointing at it. I think 3 defenders should shrink at jousting anything greater than 4 ships (though even that can be dangerous) and instead lead them on a merry chase through the asteroids using your banks and 3-turn maneuvers.

Ships that have tokens to spend on defense, especially multiple ones, don't pop like defenders. Other than Decimators, green dice augmentation through tokens or other upgrades is a central part of almost all the top ships. Defender get a focus...if they don't use it on offense.

Because TasteTheRainbow is right, you only get one focus token, so the more shots coming in the more dangerous it can be.

First post on the boards, so hello everyone. : )

I have really enjoyed reading (all 17 pages of) this topic, being a huge defender fan. I just wanted to chime in with my SC experience in huntsville flying a 2 named defender and shuttle with fleet officer list a few weeks ago. 33 competitors and i went 5-0 in swiss, to include a victory against Richard Hsu (who was top 8 at worlds last year). I ended up losing first round of top 8 in a rematch against Richard.

The list performed really well against everything i faced (scum swarms, phantom/mini swarm, 2 ship builds) In swiss i only lost vessery once and never lost brath. i also think a didnt play the list to its full potential.

A couple of other notes that are pertinent to the discussion:

1. I used a red manuever once the entire tournament-to arc dodge.

2. The 4k is very strong. so strong that your opponent will often plan for it exclusively (which makes the 1 bank great). And sometimes the 4k is the best move, and there is nothing they can do about it.

3. The survivability is high enough to take some hits at the beginning of the game, and fleet officer usually makes the attacks strong enough to get an early ship advantage. Both defenders fired with focus/target lock on the alpha strike. The shuttle was also a great blocker.

4. It was a ton of fun to put both named defenders on the table. I had a blast flying them, and had some great games with some great opponents.

TLDR: defenders can be successful, have few weaknesses, and they are tons of fun, YMMV

unless you're one of THOSE players who think that its okay to fly multiple turns with a stress token. (ie. no other way to put it but bad.).

Funny I always thought people that always lock into the "OMG I need to clear this stress ASAP" are worse than people that recognize getting shots while stressed are still better than clearing the stress and not getting shots, or being put in a bad position

There was a three-defender list run at my store championship last night. I think it went 3-1, but it might have been 2-2. Either way, it was quite competitive, though our event wasn't huge (27 players). Don't recall if it made the top eight cut or not. I was still hurting from going 1-3 with my scum, and wanted to drink away my sorrows and watch the Badgers win at basketball.

Defenders can work. Definitely. They are full of surprises and sometimes, the most unsurprising move is the one that arc dodges.. I had a stressed Delta - I did 4K like 5 or 6 times in a row to arc dodge Kath (who took a slow turn followed by moving forward followed by kturn followed by coming back) and it allowed me to even arc dodge soontir even though I moved first (the other Delta blocked Soontir, so no actions to reposition)

That Kturn + Barrel Roll (for the non stressed delta) was super important.

That's interesting because I just played a game against TVboy in which I used 3 Delta Squadron Pilots. I lost, but I felt like I had a fighting chance the whole time. When I asked him what he thought, his simple response was, "They're too predictable." I think you're right, they can be full of surprises, but once your opponent knows their tricks they can be easy to counter.

That said, I think I pulled some pretty amazing maneuvers to deny his ships shots, and focus fire on one of his. Of course, since those ships were "Whisper" and Soontir Fel, I didn't have much to show for my efforts.

I noticed that a lot when I fly Defenders if there is a chance you can 4k turn your opponent assumes you will so you hit them with a 2 forward or go off and hammer another ship. Being unpredictable is a little harder with a Defender, yes, but the rewards for doing so is amazing

I would also like to mention paying attention to movement order is HUGE with a Defender and trying to judge K-turns especially when you face large ships

Defenders can work. Definitely. They are full of surprises and sometimes, the most unsurprising move is the one that arc dodges.. I had a stressed Delta - I did 4K like 5 or 6 times in a row to arc dodge Kath (who took a slow turn followed by moving forward followed by kturn followed by coming back) and it allowed me to even arc dodge soontir even though I moved first (the other Delta blocked Soontir, so no actions to reposition)

That Kturn + Barrel Roll (for the non stressed delta) was super important.

That's interesting because I just played a game against TVboy in which I used 3 Delta Squadron Pilots. I lost, but I felt like I had a fighting chance the whole time. When I asked him what he thought, his simple response was, "They're too predictable." I think you're right, they can be full of surprises, but once your opponent knows their tricks they can be easy to counter.

That said, I think I pulled some pretty amazing maneuvers to deny his ships shots, and focus fire on one of his. Of course, since those ships were "Whisper" and Soontir Fel, I didn't have much to show for my efforts.

I noticed that a lot when I fly Defenders if there is a chance you can 4k turn your opponent assumes you will so you hit them with a 2 forward or go off and hammer another ship. Being unpredictable is a little harder with a Defender, yes, but the rewards for doing so is amazing

I would also like to mention paying attention to movement order is HUGE with a Defender and trying to judge K-turns especially when you face large ships

I notice this too. The consequences of ignoring the K-turn are often quite bad, so it must be accounted for, opening up the other possibilities.

First post on the boards, so hello everyone. : )

I have really enjoyed reading (all 17 pages of) this topic, being a huge defender fan. I just wanted to chime in with my SC experience in huntsville flying a 2 named defender and shuttle with fleet officer list a few weeks ago. 33 competitors and i went 5-0 in swiss, to include a victory against Richard Hsu (who was top 8 at worlds last year). I ended up losing first round of top 8 in a rematch against Richard.

The list performed really well against everything i faced (scum swarms, phantom/mini swarm, 2 ship builds) In swiss i only lost vessery once and never lost brath. i also think a didnt play the list to its full potential.

A couple of other notes that are pertinent to the discussion:

1. I used a red manuever once the entire tournament-to arc dodge.

2. The 4k is very strong. so strong that your opponent will often plan for it exclusively (which makes the 1 bank great). And sometimes the 4k is the best move, and there is nothing they can do about it.

3. The survivability is high enough to take some hits at the beginning of the game, and fleet officer usually makes the attacks strong enough to get an early ship advantage. Both defenders fired with focus/target lock on the alpha strike. The shuttle was also a great blocker.

4. It was a ton of fun to put both named defenders on the table. I had a blast flying them, and had some great games with some great opponents.

TLDR: defenders can be successful, have few weaknesses, and they are tons of fun, YMMV

Nice! When was the tournament? And do you know if it is in List Juggler? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it. It would be nice to get your results in there to help "pad" the Defender's tourney stats. It is sort of cherry-picking the results, but really everyone's tournament should be in List Juggler!

www.starwarsclubhouse.com

When I see a defender across from me I think to myself "thank you for the free points". Focus fire on the defender and you just banked some free points for yourself. They may be good jousters but there's a reason they don't pop up much competitively. Which is why bwings show up a lot because of their low cost high performance value.

Any ship pops if you focus on it I don't get why people keep repeating this myth that defenders are fragile.

I've had one chased by a b-wing and a z-95 for five turns and live while the other two tore wedge a new one, and it was on one hit point I just used the speed to stay at max range.

If your killing defenders easy then the person using them is doing something wrong.

I think the problem is that unlike a B-wing, you've lost 1/3 of your list (at least) instead of 1/4 when the focus fire does happen. And it's made more likely because TIE defenders love to joust, so all guns are pointing at it. I think 3 defenders should shrink at jousting anything greater than 4 ships (though even that can be dangerous) and instead lead them on a merry chase through the asteroids using your banks and 3-turn maneuvers.

Ships that have tokens to spend on defense, especially multiple ones, don't pop like defenders. Other than Decimators, green dice augmentation through tokens or other upgrades is a central part of almost all the top ships. Defender get a focus...if they don't use it on offense.

Because TasteTheRainbow is right, you only get one focus token, so the more shots coming in the more dangerous it can be.

That's exactly what I was trying to point out. I didn't say they were fragile just that there is an overcost issue and being such a big chunk of points make for an easy first target. Compared to a bwing that's a lot less points and not as much of an issue if it gets focused down.

Nice! When was the tournament? And do you know if it is in List Juggler? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it. It would be nice to get your results in there to help "pad" the Defender's tourney stats. It is sort of cherry-picking the results, but really everyone's tournament should be in List Juggler!

www.starwarsclubhouse.com

Unfortunately it isnt in list juggler as far as i know. Tourney was 28 feb. I watched the thread for about a week and it was never posted. I asked the organizer about it, and he said he had been meaning to get it in. Just never did. : /

Nice! When was the tournament? And do you know if it is in List Juggler? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it. It would be nice to get your results in there to help "pad" the Defender's tourney stats. It is sort of cherry-picking the results, but really everyone's tournament should be in List Juggler!

www.starwarsclubhouse.com

Unfortunately it isnt in list juggler as far as i know. Tourney was 28 feb. I watched the thread for about a week and it was never posted. I asked the organizer about it, and he said he had been meaning to get it in. Just never did. : /

So what was the list?

Because it seems like a interesting idea,

Vessery

-VI

Rexler Brath

-Predator

Omicron Group Pilot

-Fleet Officer

That's what I came up with, hard to decide on the EPT for Rexler, either Predator or PTL (to cover Vessery when the Shuttle goes down) were the 2 I thought would be best

I ran:

LAMBDA-CLASS SHUTTLE: Omicron Group Pilot (21)

Enhanced Scopes (1)

Fleet Officer (3)

TIE DEFENDER: · Colonel Vessery (35)

Decoy (2)

TIE DEFENDER: · Rexler Brath (37)

Veteran Instincts (1)

In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

The Aggressor's probably leading this one now with its 8 HP behind 3 green dice and autothrusters.

In regards to my comment about it being the 2nd most durable ship, I haven't kept up with the math-wing since wave 4- early 5 news reveals. At that time, the Defender was the 2nd most durable ship, with the Firespray just ahead.

The Aggressor's probably leading this one now with its 8 HP behind 3 green dice and autothrusters.

Yeah it take some punishment all right.

Double Aggressor turtle build seems to be really effective and only weak to double stress (ALL THAT GREEN HOLY CRAP, Defender needs a serious revision)

B+C with Adv Sensors, Auto Thrusts, Ion Cannon, Predator, IG-2000, Hot-Shot Blaster 50 pts a piece

It can turtle for a hell of a long time - Ions some to either choose as Prey or just throw them off while they hunt their chosen prey elsewhere.

rinse repeat, evade each turn, auto thrusters helping a whole lot.

Pain in the rear to deal with.

I wish Defenders had been thought out better, they are fun but they are just missing something. That 30 pt price tag is just ridiculous when you compare it to the Aggressors 36 base cost.

I wish Defenders had been thought out better, they are fun but they are just missing something. That 30 pt price tag is just ridiculous when you compare it to the Aggressors 36 base cost.

Small base versus large base make a whole world of difference.

I wish Defenders had been thought out better, they are fun but they are just missing something. That 30 pt price tag is just ridiculous when you compare it to the Aggressors 36 base cost.

Small base versus large base make a whole world of difference.

Very true and the defender flies rings around the aggressor staying out of the front arc is easy and with the k turn the defenders always have a shot.