It is the 2nd most durable ship in the game (and only barely not the most).

How are you arriving at that conclusion? What I'm looking at does list the Defender as the most durable small base ship but it gets beaten out by every large base ship other than the Outer Rim Smuggler and the Shuttle.

indeed it is not that high on the list as claimed

but it's pretty high up there, higher than even ACD phantoms

Which makes sense. Defenders are expensive, no doubt, but they aren't glass cannons. Certain abilities that absolutely hard ball Soontir or Phantoms (especially the agility ignoring damage sources such as crew vader) affect them far less.

It's another part of why I enjoy them: the balanced statline actually comes into play far more often than one would believe.

It also leads to some incredible frustration when the dice go rogue, but hey that's what dice do

It is the 2nd most durable ship in the game (and only barely not the most).

How are you arriving at that conclusion? What I'm looking at does list the Defender as the most durable small base ship but it gets beaten out by every large base ship other than the Outer Rim Smuggler and the Shuttle.

indeed it is not that high on the list as claimed

but it's pretty high up there, higher than even ACD phantoms

Which makes sense. Defenders are expensive, no doubt, but they aren't glass cannons. Certain abilities that absolutely hard ball Soontir or Phantoms (especially the agility ignoring damage sources such as crew vader) affect them far less.

It's another part of why I enjoy them: the balanced statline actually comes into play far more often than one would believe.

It also leads to some incredible frustration when the dice go rogue, but hey that's what dice do

Lost last night because of those backstabbing greens, my Corran full health vs a one hull aggressor, he got three hits and a crit I roll three blank the crit is direct damage.

Sometimes, I wonder how many of those brutal matches and incredible maneuvering feats of the defender happen in the real boards, and how many in the players heads.

Well that's really nice isn't it calling anyone who enjoys using the defender a liar when they say they do well with them.

First, I didn't call anyone a liar. Second, if you read more carefully, I don't make any allusion to those that say 'I played with it and I did well'. Third, are you then implying that every "defender lover" provides 100% accurate information and that no one exaggerates, or use ideas they have in mind but are not truly tested, to reinforce their arguments?

The 3 evasion and 6 toughness are pretty huge. I find the tie Defender to be a pretty scary ship to see on the other side of the map.

I played 2x Delta Ds + Whisper (ACD, VI, FCS)

Against Soontir, Turr and Kath (stress build)

I lost Whisper super early to a very dumb mistake of mine.

At the end there were 2 Delta Ds and Kath - ran out of time on the turn Kath killed the 1 Hull D (escaped for 8 rounds, almost managed to arc dodge the range 3 on Kath's arc but it didn't work out~) or my other D would've ended Kath in one or two more rounds. Was only 60 minutes rounds I believe. 15 more minutes would've had me killing that Firespray (had a few hulls left, can't remember exactly how)

Defenders can work. Definitely. They are full of surprises and sometimes, the most unsurprising move is the one that arc dodges.. I had a stressed Delta - I did 4K like 5 or 6 times in a row to arc dodge Kath (who took a slow turn followed by moving forward followed by kturn followed by coming back) and it allowed me to even arc dodge soontir even though I moved first (the other Delta blocked Soontir, so no actions to reposition)

That Kturn + Barrel Roll (for the non stressed delta) was super important.

This game, even with its "power" builds, can still allow many types of list to win.

My list's biggest weakness was losing Whisper early on.

And that BBBBZ? I won it because of Whisper - that I can't deny, with the previous way Cloaking worked.. poor Bs

However I defeated it with 2 Defenders helping out.

Its great and there are definitely other builds to look into - maybe even that Decimator + 2 Deltas, no upgrades anywhere but a lot of hulls and shields and good 'nuff firepower.

Sometimes, I wonder how many of those brutal matches and incredible maneuvering feats of the defender happen in the real boards, and how many in the players heads.

Well that's really nice isn't it calling anyone who enjoys using the defender a liar when they say they do well with them.

First, I didn't call anyone a liar. Second, if you read more carefully, I don't make any allusion to those that say 'I played with it and I did well'. Third, are you then implying that every "defender lover" provides 100% accurate information and that no one exaggerates, or use ideas they have in mind but are not truly tested, to reinforce their arguments?

It's called inference and there's a subtle way to do it then there's what you did.

I'm a defender lover and when I retell a match I never exaggerate or lie and I assume everyone else does the same until they are proven to be fibbing.

Now unless you can prove people are lying or being misleading then I really wouldn't start slinging mud around.

You don't have to purposefully lie or exaggerate to be mistaken about why a game went a certain way.

Sometimes, I wonder how many of those brutal matches and incredible maneuvering feats of the defender happen in the real boards, and how many in the players heads.

Well that's really nice isn't it calling anyone who enjoys using the defender a liar when they say they do well with them.

First, I didn't call anyone a liar. Second, if you read more carefully, I don't make any allusion to those that say 'I played with it and I did well'. Third, are you then implying that every "defender lover" provides 100% accurate information and that no one exaggerates, or use ideas they have in mind but are not truly tested, to reinforce their arguments?

It's called inference and there's a subtle way to do it then there's what you did.

I'm a defender lover and when I retell a match I never exaggerate or lie and I assume everyone else does the same until they are proven to be fibbing.

Now unless you can prove people are lying or being misleading then I really wouldn't start slinging mud around.

Ok, let me have a jab at it:

"How people are lying or being misleading"

Lets say that I had a Tie Defender list that is 8 wins 1 losses against some good players. I then go and share my experience with people as suggest that maybe T/D are not that horrible. That is fine. What is not fine, is when people decide to take it further, for example: :"oh, Tie Defenders are great you guys just need to learn how to fly them". Now lets look at that statement, T/D are great at what? casual games, using it against a few times against a person that doesn't know how to counter them, re living moments from Tie Fighter the computer game? Sure. But to go and argue that the ship is balance and is not overpriced based on that limited experience is MISLEADING.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

Making general claims over a very small number of games, without providing information on the environment, opponent skill and familiarity with you as an opponent is MISLEADING. Getting all insulted when people point out the statistical averages over 100s of games, be it through tournament record keeping or deriving it using mathematical formulas, is odd.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

I don't know about you, but in most competitive environments a >50% win rate against all comers is pretty ******* spectacular.

I think it's entirely valid to suggest that people do not know how to fly the Defender when they do things like complain about the hard turns being red. If you are finding yourself in places often where you need to perform a hard 1 or 2 as a Defender pilot, you need to learn better how to fly the ship. That is just the way it is. If you cannot, then maybe the Defender is not a ship you can fly effectively, and then you should not fly it. This means nothing at all about the viability of the ship for anyone but you, as you clearly have not really played the ship as intended, by flying it as an interceptor or some other knife fighter.

The difference between the two sides here I think is that the "pro-defender" side has offered a significant swath of arguments of admittedly varying degrees of practicality, while the "anti-defender" side simple chants "Not enough tournament results // hard 1/2 are red // overpriced", while not really engaging in the discussion other than to add condescending remarks about the skill of the opponents or to cling to math and tournament results, neither of which give a truly holistic view of the ability the ship has to perform successfully.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

I don't know about you, but in most competitive environments a >50% win rate against all comers is pretty ******* spectacular.

I think it's entirely valid to suggest that people do not know how to fly the Defender when they do things like complain about the hard turns being red. If you are finding yourself in places often where you need to perform a hard 1 or 2 as a Defender pilot, you need to learn better how to fly the ship. That is just the way it is. If you cannot, then maybe the Defender is not a ship you can fly effectively, and then you should not fly it. This means nothing at all about the viability of the ship for anyone but you, as you clearly have not really played the ship as intended, by flying it as an interceptor or some other knife fighter.

The difference between the two sides here I think is that the "pro-defender" side has offered a significant swath of arguments of admittedly varying degrees of practicality, while the "anti-defender" side simple chants "Not enough tournament results // hard 1/2 are red // overpriced", while not really engaging in the discussion other than to add condescending remarks about the skill of the opponents or to cling to math and tournament results, neither of which give a truly holistic view of the ability the ship has to perform successfully.

A 50% win rate isn't good enough to make the cut at a tournament. A 75% win rate might still not make it if you don't have a high MoV.

I'm detecting 0 bias in your summary of this thread.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

I don't know about you, but in most competitive environments a >50% win rate against all comers is pretty ******* spectacular.

I think it's entirely valid to suggest that people do not know how to fly the Defender when they do things like complain about the hard turns being red. If you are finding yourself in places often where you need to perform a hard 1 or 2 as a Defender pilot, you need to learn better how to fly the ship. That is just the way it is. If you cannot, then maybe the Defender is not a ship you can fly effectively, and then you should not fly it. This means nothing at all about the viability of the ship for anyone but you, as you clearly have not really played the ship as intended, by flying it as an interceptor or some other knife fighter.

The difference between the two sides here I think is that the "pro-defender" side has offered a significant swath of arguments of admittedly varying degrees of practicality, while the "anti-defender" side simple chants "Not enough tournament results // hard 1/2 are red // overpriced", while not really engaging in the discussion other than to add condescending remarks about the skill of the opponents or to cling to math and tournament results, neither of which give a truly holistic view of the ability the ship has to perform successfully.

A 50% win rate isn't good enough to make the cut at a tournament. A 75% win rate might still not make it if you don't have a high MoV.

I'm detecting 0 bias in your summary of this thread.

I love the ship too, but after really trying to learn and fly it, its just a little too cost-inefficient. (I'm decent, had some good success with Bombers previously, who fly similarly).

Also Fat Han eats it for dinner. You're always facing the wrong way.

Rocks get in the way. Sure, you're not supposed to fly with needing the 1 and 2 hard turns, but sometimes you really wish you had them. Also not having the 2 slights green really suck. Any stress and you're probably going forward, unless you're one of THOSE players who think that its okay to fly multiple turns with a stress token. (ie. no other way to put it but bad.).

Sometimes, I wonder how many of those brutal matches and incredible maneuvering feats of the defender happen in the real boards, and how many in the players heads.

Well that's really nice isn't it calling anyone who enjoys using the defender a liar when they say they do well with them.

First, I didn't call anyone a liar. Second, if you read more carefully, I don't make any allusion to those that say 'I played with it and I did well'. Third, are you then implying that every "defender lover" provides 100% accurate information and that no one exaggerates, or use ideas they have in mind but are not truly tested, to reinforce their arguments?

It's called inference and there's a subtle way to do it then there's what you did.

I'm a defender lover and when I retell a match I never exaggerate or lie and I assume everyone else does the same until they are proven to be fibbing.

Now unless you can prove people are lying or being misleading then I really wouldn't start slinging mud around.

Ok, let me have a jab at it:

"How people are lying or being misleading"

Lets say that I had a Tie Defender list that is 8 wins 1 losses against some good players. I then go and share my experience with people as suggest that maybe T/D are not that horrible. That is fine. What is not fine, is when people decide to take it further, for example: :"oh, Tie Defenders are great you guys just need to learn how to fly them". Now lets look at that statement, T/D are great at what? casual games, using it against a few times against a person that doesn't know how to counter them, re living moments from Tie Fighter the computer game? Sure. But to go and argue that the ship is balance and is not overpriced based on that limited experience is MISLEADING.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

Making general claims over a very small number of games, without providing information on the environment, opponent skill and familiarity with you as an opponent is MISLEADING. Getting all insulted when people point out the statistical averages over 100s of games, be it through tournament record keeping or deriving it using mathematical formulas, is odd.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

I don't know about you, but in most competitive environments a >50% win rate against all comers is pretty ******* spectacular.

I think it's entirely valid to suggest that people do not know how to fly the Defender when they do things like complain about the hard turns being red. If you are finding yourself in places often where you need to perform a hard 1 or 2 as a Defender pilot, you need to learn better how to fly the ship. That is just the way it is. If you cannot, then maybe the Defender is not a ship you can fly effectively, and then you should not fly it. This means nothing at all about the viability of the ship for anyone but you, as you clearly have not really played the ship as intended, by flying it as an interceptor or some other knife fighter.

The difference between the two sides here I think is that the "pro-defender" side has offered a significant swath of arguments of admittedly varying degrees of practicality, while the "anti-defender" side simple chants "Not enough tournament results // hard 1/2 are red // overpriced", while not really engaging in the discussion other than to add condescending remarks about the skill of the opponents or to cling to math and tournament results, neither of which give a truly holistic view of the ability the ship has to perform successfully.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

Going back to the original 8 win 1 loss example, it seems that the enigma of the T/D has been solved. But turn up the player skill level, encounter players that have now seen the T/D dial tricks or take it the T/D to a store championships with very competitive players and that 8 win 1 loss record quickly becomes a 17 win 12 losses score. Not so impressive anymore.

I don't know about you, but in most competitive environments a >50% win rate against all comers is pretty ******* spectacular.

I think it's entirely valid to suggest that people do not know how to fly the Defender when they do things like complain about the hard turns being red. If you are finding yourself in places often where you need to perform a hard 1 or 2 as a Defender pilot, you need to learn better how to fly the ship. That is just the way it is. If you cannot, then maybe the Defender is not a ship you can fly effectively, and then you should not fly it. This means nothing at all about the viability of the ship for anyone but you, as you clearly have not really played the ship as intended, by flying it as an interceptor or some other knife fighter.

The difference between the two sides here I think is that the "pro-defender" side has offered a significant swath of arguments of admittedly varying degrees of practicality, while the "anti-defender" side simple chants "Not enough tournament results // hard 1/2 are red // overpriced", while not really engaging in the discussion other than to add condescending remarks about the skill of the opponents or to cling to math and tournament results, neither of which give a truly holistic view of the ability the ship has to perform successfully.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

If you let your opponent exploit your red turns, you're not very competitive.

See, it can goes both ways. But attacking player's (player himself or opponents) skills is not very constructive so, there is no point going there.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

neither of these are technically correct

if we're assuming a competitive environment and that gameplay choice actually matters rather than some weird borg world where every action has an absolute, predetermined consequence, then one of three things can happen

1.) stress will be exploited by opponent as defender struggles to shed it

2.) stress will matter little because the defender player can still k-turn

3.) red maneuver will take opposing player off guard

it all depends on the context in which the maneuver is made. without these specific gameplay scenarios, baseless assertions about what will happen or how competitive one's environment are (somewhat obviously) worthless

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

I've used them in 30+ games and done a red turn exactly once to avoid and asteroid and deliver a killing blow to Corran horn.

There are moments where its better to do a red turn than not. Most people expect you to bank and do long moves (4-5 straight or 4k)

Defenders can work. Definitely. They are full of surprises and sometimes, the most unsurprising move is the one that arc dodges.. I had a stressed Delta - I did 4K like 5 or 6 times in a row to arc dodge Kath (who took a slow turn followed by moving forward followed by kturn followed by coming back) and it allowed me to even arc dodge soontir even though I moved first (the other Delta blocked Soontir, so no actions to reposition)

That Kturn + Barrel Roll (for the non stressed delta) was super important.

That's interesting because I just played a game against TVboy in which I used 3 Delta Squadron Pilots. I lost, but I felt like I had a fighting chance the whole time. When I asked him what he thought, his simple response was, "They're too predictable." I think you're right, they can be full of surprises, but once your opponent knows their tricks they can be easy to counter.

That said, I think I pulled some pretty amazing maneuvers to deny his ships shots, and focus fire on one of his. Of course, since those ships were "Whisper" and Soontir Fel, I didn't have much to show for my efforts.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

Well, that's what happens when you stack 3 of the same ship in your squadron, it's going to get samey It's why I personally max out at 2

But I think you nailed it with "I felt like I had a fighting chance the whole time." That sentiment in particular is what really draws me to the Defenders in particular, because I have had some horrible and depressing experiences with other generics

Z-95s against Aggressors

Tie Fighters against Corran (******* 'ell this ******* cancels what few damage I can get through his dice)

X-wings against phantoms

B-wings against swarms (ouch )

Scum also has been lending these types of generics by outfitting Z-95s with feedbacks (doesn't help for **** against aggressors, but great for phantoms and soontir ) but the Defender's well rounded stats lets it threaten basically any ship on the table. It's got **** its scared of (predator and HLC), but it can keep up with and slug it out with basically everything out there. You get two of them on any ship and they secure a solid advantage (and it's the secret to how they smack aggressors in the back of the head, aggressors just can't slow down to fix both their arcs on defenders but defenders' small base lets them shimmy up to defenders pretty readily)

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

Perhaps you misunderstood. Your opponent should be repeatedly putting themselves in a spot where the defender has to do hard tight turns to keep arc. If they're just letting you White K and green straight all day then they're just letting the defender play to its strengths.

In my (not high level of competitive play ) experience, the 4k is a good substitute for the 1-turn. Times I would pull a 1-turn in TIE fighters (I want to change arc without moving very far in a particular direction), for example, I end up pulling a 4k. For times I really need that specific maneuver, it's still there as a red, though. Saying that really high level opponents will always be in your 1-turn blind spot seems kind if silly to me, though.

I'm a Defender fan and I play them pretty often in friendly games but IMO they are bad.

Just consider this:

Blue Squadron Pilot, 22 points

PS 2 : 3, 1, 5, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Torpedo x 2, Cannon, Mod, System Upgrade

Delta Squadron Pilot, 30 points

PS 1 : 3, 3, 3, 3 : Focus, TL, BR

Missile, Cannon, Mod

At this point the B looks marginally better to me for 8 points less. Skip to the end, the defender does nothing to close that gap. Poor action economy, poor maneuver wheel, middling to bad unique pilot abilities. White K-turns are nice but just don't make up for the other problems.

Then look at what is competing for the same points, we all know about Phantoms but for a couple of points more for equivilent PS you can have a Firespray. For much cheaper you'll soon be able to have ATC Tie/x1s.

They aren't so bad that you can't win. However, they are so bad that it looks like there are strategically dominant options to choosing Defenders. The only reason to field Defenders is that you want to field Defenders.

If your opponent doesn't exploit those red turns then you aren't in a very competitive environment.

That's a somewhat silly thing to say. You can only 'exploit' a red turn if the defender player is doing them. And frankly, if the defender player is doing red turns all day, then he's doing it wrong. Defenders simply don't need the 1/2 hard turns except in the most extreme (and rare) circumstances, so good luck exploiting it! Honestly I don't understand the fixation on those 1/2 red turns...they are so utterly meaningless to the Defender's performance. I don't know offhand how many games I've played with a defender, but over a dozen perhaps 20, and I have performed maybe 3 or 4 red turns in total? I don't know exactly, but its trivial.

Perhaps you misunderstood. Your opponent should be repeatedly putting themselves in a spot where the defender has to do hard tight turns to keep arc. If they're just letting you White K and green straight all day then they're just letting the defender play to its strengths.

In my (not high level of competitive play ) experience, the 4k is a good substitute for the 1-turn. Times I would pull a 1-turn in TIE fighters (I want to change arc without moving very far in a particular direction), for example, I end up pulling a 4k. For times I really need that specific maneuver, it's still there as a red, though. Saying that really high level opponents will always be in your 1-turn blind spot seems kind if silly to me, though.

I'm in agreement here. Most often the Koiogran turn gets you some shots, and rolling attack dice is how you win games. I've tinkered a bit trying to make situations where the red turns are the move, but it doesn't happen often. The red turns make me think really hard before using them. If you guess wrong, you're now stressed, and being without actions is usually a very bad thing. Although lady luck can often temper the consequences, she's quite unreliable. The wonderful thing about the TIE defender is that it doesn't care of its Koiogran turn gets blocked because it can try again the next round. Of course, PS1 Defenders shouldn't get their K-turn blocked except in rare circumstances.

Well we've all misjudged distance from time to time it can happen with any ship.